[Closed] Jesus Christ

That's not what I was trying to say TJ, though in hindsight my argument was a bit clumsy. There have been some very offensive threads regarding religion on here, and it seems (IMO) as though it's one of the last available areas where people assume it's ok to have a go at people without fear of recrimination. I'm sure that the vast majority of forum members wouldnt dream of posting racist comments, I just want to know why it's seen as ok to patronise and insult people because of their faith.

Barnsleymitch - its not how I see it at all. Its people challenging the believers and taking them to task for the things they say. If they find that insulting then thats their problem but I think like racists believers should be challenged and I find their public pronouncements offensive.

Consenting adults in private is fine but I find the views of the believers insulting and offensive. They should keep them to themselves

Just to turn the argument on its head

You find the views of believers "offensive" and would like to censor their access to free-speech?

TJ - when you say 'believers' do you mean the church leaders, etc? In reality, there are millions of people world wide, who, whilst holding their own 'belief', dont attempt to force their views on others. I personally have no problem when folk on here condemn Ratzinger, etc - there's really very little I can offer in his defence. It's when those insults and comments are aimed personally at forum members that I become upset (bit of a crappy way of describing it I know, but in my defence, I have man-flu). I think this is yet another of those times that, in hindsight, I should have just kept my head down, as, oddly enough, I cant be arsed to argue.

Just turning the argument on its head barnsley mitch

The key thing is you have a choice about faith, you don't about skin colour. I find the views of the religious offensive.

Coyote - I have no wish to censor them - but if they put their views forward in the public sphere they must accept being challenged ( As I do on politics for example)

Personal insults aimed at forum members are bad, whether it's to do with wheel size, 'cheeky', support of football generally, support of specific football team, number of gears, ownership of a road bike etc etc.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss them on a discussion forum, even if many of these are areas on which people are not willing/able to change their opinion - why is religion any different?

Try reading the teachings of Jesus. If you can brush aside the coolness of atheism, you may find that what he reportedly said wasn't that outrageous really. Bit left wing for some on here, but there you go. You *will* find that what he said bears very little resemblence to the teachings of the established church(es).

[b]I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians - they are most unlike your Christ.[/b] [i]Mahatma Gandhi[/i]

No, you said "Consenting adults in private is fine but I find the views of the believers insulting and offensive. They should keep them to themselves". Now the English language is a wonderful thing with it's various nuances but that sounds like censorship to me.

Liking the quote three-fish. Not heard that one before.

All I've been trying to say is that I have never seen posts by the members of this forum who are religious either attempting to 'ram their views down people's throats' or purposely trying to offend other members. However, there are a lot of examples of this happening the other way around, and I was wondering why this was seen as ok?

barnsleymitch - Member

Can anybody give a genuine example of folk on here attempting to 'ram doctrine down your throat'?. It's clearly bol****s

Well if you bothered to read the posts barnsleymitch, you would have seen that samuri has them knocking on his door telling him that he's off to hell unless he pays them money ....... and I do too.

Is that not "ramming doctrine down your throat" ffs ?

Like racists should keep their views to themselves or Man U supporters should?

*failed troll has failed and disapered in a puff of logic* 🙁

Can I just say that nobody [u]on here[/u] has ever tried to ram anything worse than a pork pie down my throat?

I suppose I meant "should keep their views to themselves unless they are prepared to be challenged" Challenging a ridiculous idea will often mean ridicule perhaps

"Challenging a ridiculous idea will often mean ridicule perhaps"
I would have expected better from you TJ. And while were on it, I'd ask you (again) to provide me with any evidence that any religious (for want of a better word) members of this forum have done anything more than attempt to defend themselves against the overwhelming amount of piss taking and offensive posts from the usual suspects. You've already made your views on Catholicism clear, and you know what, I wouldnt want to comment or try and debate that with you, yet somehow, and this is the point I'm desperately trying to make, you seem to think it's acceptable to make patronising statements such as that one.

Just an observation, but there are far fewer spiritual opinions forcefully expressed on here than there are political ones.

Also, I'd like to know why it is deemed off limits to be contemptuous of a religious point of view but fair game to be contemptuous if not down right offensive towards a political point of view.

"I'd like to know why it is deemed off limits to be contemptuous of a religious point of view"
It isn't.

Ridicule and derision are appropriate methods of engaging the religious anything more serious engages in reasoned debate their beliefs do not merit.

I am aggressively atheist and make no apologies for it.

Also, I'd like to know why it is deemed off limits to be contemptuous of a religious point of view but fair game to be contemptuous if not down right offensive towards a political point of view.

I may have previously poked the boney finger of fun at the religious but I've poked it at various others too.

I don't understand the parallel with racism.

I'd like to know why it is deemed off limits to be contemptuous of a religious point of view but fair game to be contemptuous if not down right offensive towards a political point of view.

Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me.

The way they vote does.

Not really that difficult to figure out ...... is it ?

Barnsley mitch - its all about your point of view - the posts I find patronising and offensive you will not.

I thought I had made it clear I was trolling at least in part but I find ALL religious views contemptible, ridiculous and offensive. If you express them you will find the piss taken from you.

I think there is no place for religion in the 21st century. The whole practice of religion is absolutely abhorrent to me. So keep quiet about it or face the ridicule

I suppose I meant "should keep their views to themselves unless they are prepared to be challenged" Challenging a ridiculous idea will often mean ridicule perhaps

You are very inconsistent. You claim to be for freedom of expression, free speech, fairness and justice for all. Yet you keep saying that if someone holds spiritual views or has faith in something *you* don't happen to believe in them they deserve to have ridicule and derision heaped on them until they conform with your view of the world. So how do you differ from the people "ramming" their religion down your throat?

Coyote - its the same as people feel free to ridicule my political views

Free and fair expression means the right to ridicule the ridiculous

Would you challenge a racists views? Would you challenge a communists views? Would you challenge a fruitarians views?

"So keep quiet about it or face the ridicule"
Is that supposed to be a reasoned response?

Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me

The way they vote does.

So, if you were a single parent or gay and someones' religious viewpoint meant that they might make derogatory or offensive remarks towards you based on their faith, it wouldn't affect you so long as it wasn't a vote towards political election ?

Not really that difficult to figure out ...... is it ?

You seem to be struggling with it, yes.

To be serious for a moment, I think there are several reasons why people are currently more openly questioning and mocking of religious orthodoxy than they were even a few years ago.

Religion has often been used by the ruling classes in many societies as a means of control and oppression.
In the Western world, this has slowly been changing since the Enlightenment, but even if the formal link between religion and state has been abandoned many years ago in favour of a notional secularism, it is only now that the majority, the non-religious, feel able to openly treat religious belief/opinion the same as they would any other aspect of non-rational speculative thought.
Basically, people will mock the religious because they now can, without fear of oppression, ostracism or death. It's human nature to question, and within that spectrum of questioning behaviour will be mockery and abuse - it's what we do as a species.

Secondly, as Western orthodox Christian theology looses its grip on the majority of the European population, it throws our own increasing secularism into ever sharper contrast to those societies where religious belief still holds sway: We can see where we've come from and the majority of us have no wish to go back there.

As someone who was brought up in a Catholic household (albeit with a strongly atheist father, whose beliefs I shared from childhood) and who attended Catholic educational establishments until the age of 18, the questioning (and yes, occasional mockery) of religious belief is more in the way of a release than an attack. I'm sorry if mockery offends, but it's part of life in a secular society that promotes religious and (non-religious) tolerance.

Racist? Yes. They seek to actively do harm by believing that someone is inferior because they come from a different place.

Communist? I don't really know too much about communism so I'd be interested to discuss their point of view from a position of mutual respect and hope that they'd do the same.

Fruitarian? It's their body. If they feel they can survive purely on fruit then I'd be interesed to know more about it. It may not suit me but what harm are they doing?

Funny that on the top ten albums thread you express a liking for Bob Marley. Surely he should have derision heaped upon him from high and have his albums burnt in the street because of his Rastafarian faith.

Sometimes you do talk sense, I enjoy your political contributions. I may not agree with all of them but I respect your opinion. However in other ways you are an incredibly bigotted individual.

I find ALL religious views contemptible, ridiculous and offensive. If you express them you will find the piss taken from you.

You judgemental arrogant ****.

I have worked with and known people with a whole range of religious beliefs ..... Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, more obscure Christian denominations, etc. I have found talking to them about their religion absolutely fascinating.

I wouldn't dream of taking the piss out of them.

And you have to be some sort of idiot if you think you have the right to do so.

coyote - you seem to be saying that religion deserves special consideration. To me it does not. I will treat it in the same way as I treat other things such as being a right wing swivel eyed nutter or a ufologist.

I personally consider religion to be a great source of harm and ill doing and as such should be resisted strongly.

Its perfectly reasonable to treat religion in this way. Its unreasoanble to suggst that it should haveve special status.

Look at the ridicule I get for my views? Look at the ridicule Iheap upon the more right wing on here. Should religion be excepmt from this?

So you are basically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot?

Ernie - you take the piss from the rightwing. Why should the religous be excempt?

Coyote - Member

So you are basically saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot?

Not at all

What I am saying is that religion should be afforded the same treatment as any other subject for debate. No special protection.

Funny that on the top ten albums thread you express a liking for Bob Marley. Surely he should have derision heaped upon him from high and have his albums burnt in the street because of his Rastafarian faith.

but he smoked weed, so it's ok.... man.

they might make derogatory or offensive remarks towards you based on their faith

You really are struggling......aren't you mate ? Derogatory or offensive remarks are unacceptable, as common-sense dictates. If someone chooses to go to a temple to pray for example, then it is perfectly acceptable.

No you are not. You are saying that people with religious or spiritual views deserve treating with contempt.

Marley - I think the album is a fantastic piece of art - same as Dali's resurrection, same as some churches.

I personally feel very strongly about religion and feel very strongly that it should not be given special consideration and protection.

I don't go out of my way to offend religious people and I don't ask about their faith. But if you bring up your faith then why should I have to treat your belief with some special consideration?

this is the point - why do you think religion needs special protection?

But it's not just 'religion' that you're aiming it at on here TJ, it's people such as me. Why do I 'deserve'to have the 'piss taken from me'? Do I really have to 'keep quiet or face the ridicule'?. Who set you up in that position? I am more than able to see some of the problems caused in the world in the name of religion, but we're talking about the faith of individuals now, on this forum. Perhaps you should learn to separate your view of a persons religion from your view of them as individuals.

Coyote - Member

No you are not. You are saying that people with religious or spiritual views deserve treating with contempt.

Dunno where you get that from. Not what I have said at all.

What I repeatedly have said is that religion should be treated in exactly the same way as any other belief.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Barnsley mitch - no I have not. I do separate the person from their beliefs.

I am saying their religious vies are ridiculous to me. I think you are one of the good guys

I don't think religion needs "special" consideration as you put it. However I do believe that people should be free to pursue their own beliefs, as long as they do no harm, without fear of persecution. History is littered with unpleasant characters who believed that it was right to persecute people for their beliefs.

Why should religion be except from being debated and questioned

Ah, I see, you're changing your tune now......so now you want to "debate and question" religion ?

A little while ago you just wanted to take the piss.

Coyote - then we agree then - that is exactly my position.

I find ALL religious views contemptible, ridiculous and offensive. If you express them you will find the piss taken from you.

I think there is no place for religion in the 21st century. The whole practice of religion is absolutely abhorrent to me. So keep quiet about it or face the ridicule

Yup. That is attacking the individual.

Coyote - then we agree then - that is exactly my position.

WHAT!?!

You really are struggling......aren't you mate ?

Only to understand your logic.

I can see that.

I think I know where TJ is coming from although he's expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible! 😉

You should be able to question religion, the ask about it and to discuss it from different points of view but a lot of people seem to think that religion should be unquestioned, that it's not "right" to question it, that it deserves some sort of special respect.

It doesn't.

If I was to question a scientific paper then it would be right and proper - that's how science works with scientists and academics questioning each others discoveries, demanding proofs and evidence, picking holes, pointing out errors - that's how science advances itself. Religion (or more exactly, some religious people) seem to find any questioning of their faith in the above manner highly offensive and seem to think that it demands some sort of "respect".

I respect your right to believe in UFO's, faires, God(s), 9/11 conspiracy theories and the benefits of 29" wheels but that doesn't mean I can't question it.

Edit: did I just agree with TJ?? 😯