Jeremy Corbyn

Save your breath 😉 especially if you are out of it!! Let the revisionists have their bit of fun. It's been a long time and the wave of nostalgia is overwhelming.

Looking at Labour & JC (not Jesus Christ) is a bit like saying to them ...

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(Ref: [url= http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tm2nb ]This site[/url])

😆

outofbreath - Member

Which is 100pc consistent with my point. The post election 'Labour were obviously shit, Milliband was obviously shit' narrative is utter bollocks.

You think Miliband was [i]good[/i]? You think a party that leaves a third of all voters baffled on voting day is doing a good job? I am just absolutely baffled by this tbh. He did a terrible job, and managed to pluck defeat from the jaws of victory against an unpopular tory party which had universally failed to deliver on its economic policies, overseen a massive rise in the national debt, and was running with lead policies like "We'll cut £12 bn of public spending but no, we won't tell you how, because spoilers!" and "We're all in this together so time to cut taxes on million pound houses". Hurrah for Ed.

Northwind - Member
... and managed to pluck defeat from the jaws of victory against [s]an [/s][s]un[/s][b]popular[/b] tory party which had universally ...

There fixed that for you. 😛

You do realise that the Tories only won with a slim majority of 11 seats don't you?

But Labour lost by alot even with the SNP they are well short of a majority - 288 vs tories on 330. They only gained a net one seat from the Tories, lost 9 (including Corby) and gained 10. Scotland is of limited relevance they have to win in England and Wales to have a majority (with the help of the SNP).

so time to cut taxes on million pound houses

Work out the stamp duty on a million pound house and then show me a cut.

overseen a massive rise in the national debt

Bloody austerity, eh?

Which is 100pc consistent with my point. The post election 'Labour were obviously shit, Milliband was obviously shit' narrative is utter bollocks.

Labour were a gnat's chuff away from power sharing with the SNP with Miliband as PM. They did a pretty good job. If the media knew it was a crap campaign destined to lose they certainly didn't say so in any large numbers before the election.

Well it's quite a bizarre point to make. You seem to be suggesting that Labour fought an excellent campaign, and that, indeed, was the general consensus before election day (I have no idea where you get that from). And that it was only [i]after[/i] the election that claims were made that it was a shit campaign.

Criticism of election campaigns usually occur [i]after[/i] the day of the election - if the political party has failed to achieve its intended goals. It's part of the normal postmortem of "what went wrong?".

In case of Scotland Labour fought such a bad campaign, and the likely result was so bleedin' obvious long before election day, that criticism occurred before polling day. Even the Labour Party realised that they faced wipe-out in Scotland.

I genuinely don't understand what your problem is ?

You want everyone to say that Labour fought a fantastic campaign and not to criticise it ?

But Labour lost by alot even with the SNP they are well short of a majority - 288 vs tories on 330. They only gained a net one seat from the Tories, lost 9 (including Corby) and gained 10.

Well if you think that Labour did very badly last May mefty, and I don't deny that it wasn't a good result btw, then the fact the Tories only managed to get a majority of 11 shows just how unpopular the Tories are.

With Labour doing very badly any reasonable person would expect the Tories to win by a landslide.

Unless of course people weren't very impressed with the Tories.

ernie_lynch - Member
Unless of course people weren't very impressed with the Tories.

People's impression of Labour is even worst south of Scotland.

Let assume SNP wiped out Labour in Scotland ... oh they did. 😮

Terribly sorry Mefty- make that "cuts for people buying a £937000 house". Because that makes all the difference. 4.6 times the national average, rather than 4.9 times.

teamhurtmore - Member

Bloody austerity, eh?

Case in point- the tories lied their way through their last term, using austerity as the Universal Excuse to batter through their ideologically led changes. And yet as you say, never attempted to deliver the austerity that they promised and claimed to be delivering, which led them to fail to meet all of their economic promises. And yet this is the party that were perceived as the ones to trust with the economy, because Labour were doing such a [i]marvellous[/i] job of countering their transparent bullshit.

The big cuts happen at 250,001 and 500,001, the big rises above £1 million so your implicit suggestion it is a cut for millionaires is disingenuous.

Well if you think that Labour did very badly last May mefty, and I don't deny that it wasn't a good result btw, then the fact the Tories only managed to get a majority of 11 shows just how unpopular the Tories are.

It is very rare for a serving PM to increase his majority, so it was a major achievement. However, the Tories were incredibly unpopular and it takes a long time to regain your support, gradually things are improving for them but it is a long road.
It also shows the Tories stack up a lot of votes in constituencies they win, this though was ameliorated by Labour only getting one seat for 700,000 votes in Scotland.

mefty - Member

The big cuts happen at 250,001 and 500,001, the big rises above £1 million so to suggest it is a cut for millionaires is disingenuous.

Not disingenous, just imprecise- the actual breakeven point is (accoirding to Osborne) £937000, which I'd rounded off for brevity since it makes absolutely no difference to the actual [i]point[/i].

But since we're on the subject- £250000 is also higher than the average UK house price, and £500000 2 and a half times. Exactly where the big cuts are most needed, yeah? Since we're all in this together, yeah? But we'd better cut benefits for teenagers to fund it.

People's impression of Labour is even worst south of Scotland.

I don't usually read any of your posts Chewwy unless it's by accident, and I comment on them even less. But your last 2 line post was a real little beauty even by your unique standards.

To turn reality on its head and claim that Labour had less support "south of Scotland" than in Scotland, and presumably be blissfully unaware of the stupidity of that comment is really quite an achievement.

I had to read it repeatedly as I couldn't believe that you had made that comment, I thought "I must be misreading it". But no, no matter how many times I reread it that is precisely what you wrote 😆

It is very rare for a serving PM to increase his majority, so it was a major achievement. However, the Tories were incredibly unpopular and it takes a long time to regain your support, gradually things are improving for them but it is a long road.

So you are agreeing that the Tories are very unpopular but the fact that they aren't quite as unpopular as they were previously is a "major achievement" ?

Yeah right.

I don't suppose you put the bar so low for Labour eh ?

BTW the swing to the Tories in May was 0.8% (a major achievement) at that rate it's gonna be a very "long road" indeed before the Tories stop being unpopular.

But we'd better cut benefits for teenagers to fund it.

No they raised stamp duty on big houses to fund it, hit the banks and clobbered tax avoiders making a neutral package transferring the burden to the richest from the less well off, albeit not the worst for this measure. Your wonderful Scottish government did something very similar, albeit levels were lower because property is.

ernie_lynch - Member

People's impression of Labour is even worst south of Scotland.

I don't usually read any of your posts Chewwy unless it's by accident, and I comment on them even less. But your last 2 line post was a real little beauty even by your unique standards.

😆 I know not many people read my comments but I just want to comment because something is just not right ... can't really pin point exactly but something is not right with Labour. You know sometimes something makes you uncomfortable but you are not really sure what it is ... ya, that feeling.

To turn reality on its head and claim that Labour had less support "south of Scotland" than in Scotland, and presumably be blissfully unaware of the stupidity of that comment is really quite an achievement.

I just re-read it ... arrghhh ... Ya, that sounds stooopid indeed. Should be England & Wales etc (NI?) ... not including Scotland coz that's an "independent" country.

I had to read it repeatedly as I couldn't believe that you had made that comment, I thought "I must be misreading it". But no, no matter how many times I reread it that is precisely what you wrote

Which one?
SNP wiped the floor of Labour in Scotland? They did, didn't they? 😆

Bottom line - What's so radical about JC (not Jesus Christ) and with Labour wanting to change the world with their ideology? 😯

mefty - Member

Your wonderful Scottish government did something very similar, albeit levels were lower because property is.

Nice one. What actually happened- the Scottish government unveiled plans to fix stamp duty rates/steps, but didn't include the tax cuts for higher value houses (the break point on the original policy was £325000- IIRC it was roughly tax neutral, it just removed the failings of the old system and shifted some of the tax burden upwards. Could be wrong) Westminster nicked the idea wholesale but changed the numbers so that the breakeven point was [i]3 times[/i] higher, and so that it cost £800m quid to implement.

And declared it to be [i]fair[/i], because it still incorporated the stamp duty fix. Even though the Tory version meant that the average value house buyer saved £650 while someone buying a house costing 3 times the average saved [i]9 times[/i] more.

(incidentally, I remember when it was announced, lots of people seemed to think his was purely because house prices are higher in England. This is bobbins. The average house price in Scotland is £167000, in England £204000, but the multiplier the Tories added was roughly 300% not the 20% needed to compensate for that difference. No it's not because of London prices either, not that it would make any sense if it were)

Re who pays for it- the £800 million quid that this tax change cost, could have been spent on something else, because maths. No one policy is really paid for by one thing or another but when tax cuts for the well off coincide with cuts for the less well off, they're paying the price. The stamp duty cuts came very close to the announcement of a billion pounds of cuts and freezes in working age welfare.

So yeah. This is one sorry example of the economic policies that the Tories got away with, handing tax cuts to the well off (yes, an average housebuyer is well off) and cutting benefits for the less well off, and calling it fair, and at the same time justifying it all with Saint Austerity while actually increasing public spending. Two howling, blatant lies which Ed Miliband- who [i]apparently[/i] was really good at his job- failed to challenge.

Incidentally; I went back to an old STW thread to crib numbers, because I couldn't be bothered to look them up afresh. And it was full of people slagging Labour off, before the election. Must be a figment of my imagination?

Case in point- the tories lied their way through their last term, using austerity as the Universal Excuse to batter through their ideologically led changes. And yet as you say, never attempted to deliver the austerity that they promised and claimed to be delivering, which led them to fail to meet all of their economic promises*.

Case in point 2: good job that more honest politicians north and south of the border do not attempt to curry favour by pretending to offer an alternative to something that doesn't exit.

Case in point 3: and that no one would be stupid enough to fall for such a crazy idea and then deliver someone else a landslide based on a totally false premise

That really would be a crazy political situation that could only be made up!!!! They will be claiming that income inequality is rising next.

* wonder what impact running one of the most accommodative fiscal policies in the developed world had in UK's absolute and relative economic performance? Or may be that was just the extraordinary and distorting monetary policy (who is going to continue that one????) or may be just plain luck????

overseen a massive rise in the national debt

Bloody austerity, eh?

I do feel sorry for politicians. It's the same in local government. People complain that not enough is being spent and they complain that too much is being spent. Often it's the same people expressing both views. Reminds me of the Bear Tax from the 'Simpsons' episode.

Corbyn was a lot more politicianey on BBC breakfast. Power's going to his head! 🙂

Osbourne's property stamp duty changes where a significant increase on higher value properties and we now have some of the highest taxes on high value properties in the world. By comparison the Swiss purchase tax is around 2% even for a £2m+ equivalent property and the French charge around 8% on lower value properties of £150-200k but nit higher rates on very high value properties.

The stamp duty argument here is clutching at straws in trying to fabricate a critism of the Tories. Osbourne's move totally deflated calls for an annual "mansion" tax which in reality is a tax on flats in central London.

Reference above to national average house prices shows the total irrelevance of such a statistic which masks huge regional variations

teamhurtmore - Member

Case in point 2: good job that more honest politicians north and south of the border do not attempt to curry favour by pretending to offer an alternative to something that doesn't exit.

Oh, tory austerity certainly exists, it's just not at all what it claims to be. As you well know.

jambalaya - Member

Osbourne's property stamp duty changes where a significant increase on higher value properties

So apparently £937000- 4 and a half times the national average- isn't a higher value property? I'll file this alongside "Ed Miliband did a great job".

Yes, for much higher value properties there was an increase but it's impossible to deny that this was a tax cut (which cost the treasury £800 million, according to the government) which only benefitted the well off (ie, property buyers) and which disproportionately benefitted the very well off.

Corbyns Speech. A rehash of old, even ancient, previously rejected material and poorly delivered with frequent mumbling. It was reported many of the senior Labour Party members didn't even stay for it (Cooper, Kendall , Umana, Hunt ?), only Andy Burnham could be seen. Unity ?

Didn't we know there wouldn't be unity? Who wants unity between blairites and the new shadow cabinet? They'll have to take a back seat for the moment and that's perfectly fine.

A rehash of old, even ancient, previously rejected material

STW's own spindoctor at work!

Basically - so what?

poorly delivered with frequent mumbling

😆

Is that a serious critique ?

btw I'm very impressed that you sat through and listened to a one hour speech by Jeremy Corbyn, that's what I call dedication - even I couldn't manage that.

It was reported many of the senior Labour Party members didn't even stay for it (Cooper, Kendall , Umana, Hunt ?)

I can't see why? After they all proved so universally appealing to the membership of the party

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/tristram-hunt-ducks-out-of-leadership-race-after-discovering-hes-a-tory-2015052198479 ]Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out[/url]

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ernie_lynch - Member

poorly delivered with frequent mumbling

Is that a serious critique ?

Posted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post

Yes, Many veteran speechmakers from the UN, from the house of Lords agree with me...(Or a reply to that effect is coming) We only got a minute, he is going to have to do better than that. Actually he isn't, Kezia is rapidly coming across as a less charming Jim Murphy, so he is probably best fighting the battles that he might win.

Many veteran speechmakers from the UN, from the house of Lords agree with me...

You may mock jambalaya but he has contacts with MI5 doncha-know.

Maybe he should take some pointers from histories less mumbly orators

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That John McTernan that the BBC keep rolling out is really starting to annoy me, although his facial response on that 'money tree' vine that's doing the rounds is pretty funny.

and poorly delivered with frequent mumbling

Unlike Ed Millibean who everyone was afraid was about to swallow his tongue? Or DaveCam who looks like he's about to burst a vein in his head?

Nothing wrong with a bit of calm. I just wish he didn't seem a bit confused about the job he seems to have reversed into.

Nothing wrong with a bit of calm. I just wish he didn't seem a bit confused about the job he seems to have reversed into.

Indeed. But a pretty formidable task ahead - beyond most.

The media headwind will remain intense - the Times photo was a clear indicator as was The Economist cover. And then there is the rest of the party. He will be quoting John Major before too long, "b######s"

Thankless task frankly.

Oh, tory austerity certainly exists, it's just not at all what it claims to be. As you well know.

I prefer to agree with Varoufakis (at least on this point) since it is an inaccurate description of current policy. And as for those who claim, "Vote for me as we are the only genuine alternative to [s]Tory Austerity[/s] something that doesn't exist.", one can but smile!!!!

Still it works - hence we get the politicians we deserve (with the obvious exception 😉 )

Trident. More chaos with Corbyn ruling out using it, shadow defense minister saying thats unhelpful, Abbit stating shes surprised at the critism and now Corbyn saying nuclear weapons didn't help the US on 9-11. This oast comment will provide critics an easy to target to say Corbyn doesnt understand the difference between various threats to a countries security. Corbyn dodged any debate or decision on Trident as we can clearly see why.

Chaos? I'd say it's brought absolute clarity.

Maria Eagle was less convinced but may be it wasn't as clear in the conference hall?

So Burnham also joining the anti-freedom of movement brigade!!

Abbit stating shes surprised at the critism and now Corbyn saying nuclear weapons didn't help the US on 9-11

He's got a point though. They didn't, and they won't the next time either. Trident is about as much use in countering the threat we face as my cats. And they're all asleep on my bed at the moment. But they didn't cost £100 billion quid so I'll let them off.

Christ! Even Putin is telling us where the ACTUAL threat is coming, and will continue to come from. And he's also pointing out that we should be singing from th same hymn sheet. So will we be needing those nukes against him then?

I don't know if you caught the news last night, but the Taliban is now running most of Afghanistan again. You know... the country we invaded to rid of the Taliban. So that went well. Iraq and Syria are over-run with Jihadists.

But hey ho... lets spank £100 billion on some big penis extensions which are utterly, totally and completely ****ing useless against the enemy we're now facing 🙄

JC doesn't get the nuclear deterrent at all, see when asked about whether he would push the button he replied.

JC: Would anybody press the nuclear button?

But that's not the point, the point is for it to work people have to believe you would.

I'll do it

JC: Would anybody press the nuclear button?

Hi!

[img] https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_908w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2015-07-30/AP/Britain_Womens_Golf_Open-01e00.jp g" target="_blank">https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_908w/2010-2019/Wires/Images/2015-07-30/AP/Britain_Womens_Golf_Open-01e00.jp g"/> &w=1484[/img]

9/11 wasn't a state sponsored war though, so it's a silly argument. USSR overrunning Germany might be a more sensible comparison and nukes were useful in the Falklands. Nukes are for the UK a defensive weapon against state aggression towards the UK or NATO members in general.

Don't you ever think it odd how none of the Arab countries have invaded Israel yet?

useless against the enemy we're now facing

Trident isn't about the now it's about the future which is unpredictable.

Ah the SNP's favourite american

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And the product of that union