Jeremy Corbyn

I can't see this ending in any other way than a new SDP being formed.

Or a merger between the Liberal Democrats and the right of the labour party, which will then campaign on an anti-brexit ticket? Whilst wanting to avoid hyberbole, this sort of stuff is pretty revolutionary. We could very easily end up with a completely fragmented political system on a par with Italy, with half a dozen or so parties, none of whom have the power to form a government on their own.

this must be a nightmare for Corbyn

Well it's in his hands to end the nightmare, but unfortunately the worst of the power grabbing hard left is now in play and they won't give it up.

Or a merger between the Liberal Democrats and the right of the labour party,

+1 you might even find the odd pro-EU Tory willing to come over.

I guess you'd end up with from left to right, Labour, New Center ground party, Tories (inc UKIP).

Lisa Nandy being touted as leadership challenger. Bring it on

It's like the Labour party can't stand to see the Tories getting all the bad press!

On the subject of Corbyn voters not voting for him again. I think it would depend on who was up against him in a challenge. If there was someone who felt like a sensible compromise between socialist values and statesmanship/leadership qualities then it might happen, but I don't see one.

ctk - Member
Lisa Nandy being touted as leadership challenger. Bring it on

Nandy has resigned from shadow cabinet, this revolt is far wider than just Blairites.

isnt it time to bring back the other milliband?

He landed back in the UK last night.

Probably just a coincidence, and he's been planning on popping by for ages

We could very easily end up with a completely fragmented political system on a par with Italy, with half a dozen or so parties, none of whom have the power to form a government on their own.

Lisa Nandy being touted as leadership challenger

Release the Miliband!

...the proper one this time.

Trial by bacon sandwich has been initiated

Two brothers. One Bacon sandwich. Rind 1, Fight!

Has anyone had a phone call from Jeremy's office asking them to be shadow scottish minister yet?

Surely that would only be a temporary post, binners?

Rachel

I just hope Corbyn doesn't resign even if he loses a leadership election. Don't think he would though.

bongohoohaa - Member
Release the Miliband!

...the proper one this time.

bongohoohaa - Member
Two brothers. One Bacon sandwich. Rind 1, Fight!

No need for a rash, err, decision or a streaky victory here.

Has anyone had a phone call from Jeremy's office asking them to be shadow scottish minister yet?

Its going to be like the school football team where the captain takes the penalties, the corners and does the coin toss. He's going to do the lot himself

Technically you don't need to be an MP to be in the shadow cabinet. Binners, Ernie, pack your crayons and your Che Guevara t-shirts, you're up!

So the Labour party leader,emphatically,fairly and democratically elected leader less than a year ago by a ballot of hundreds of thousands of Labour party supporters is being ousted a few dozen members of the parliamentary Labour party because thet are not happy with the result of a national referendum voted on by the whole of the United Kingdom? You couldn't make it up.

No they are not happy with his Leadership which was clearly pathetic during the referendum. And don't forget the MPs were democratically elected by their constituents, who are far more representative of the people, than the Labour party membership which whored itself for a few quid.

Practically queuing up behind Corbyn now ready to ram the knife between the shoulder blades.

Labour always know when to implode at just the right moment.

This from FB from a good mate of mine who's a labour party activist 🙂

"The benefit of this mass resignation from the Labour Party front bench is that you actually find out who our education leader, our transport leader, our justice leader, our Wales and Scotland leaders (yes we do have one) actually were. I am not lying when I say I have never heard of (until today) Lilian Greenwood, Karl Turner, Kate Green, Nia Griffith or Ian Murray. I still don't know what any of them have done in nine months and that can include Alessandro Del Piero, John Healy, Vernon Stoker, Lucy Powell and Kerry Lenin and McCartney."

😀

And don't forget the MPs were democratically elected by their constituents, who are far more representative of the people, than the Labour party membership which whored itself for a few quid.

You mean those constituents who turned out in force and just voted to leave the EU? 🙂

I find it interesting that people are accusing Labour of 'ignoring' the 'working classes' when the truth is, that successive right-wing governments and a right-wing media have been steadily churning out propaganda to suit their neo-liberal agenda. It's not Labour's fault that many amongst the 'working classes' have swallowed this propaganda and ended up believing the lies, the manipulation of facts and statistics, and succumbing to the divide and rule ideology of the right.

As had been said already on here; it's interesting to note that many areas with large immigrant populations voted by a majority to remain. I'd put that down to people's real experience of actually living and working with other nationalities and cultures, rather than simply believing what the Murdoch/Rothermere/Desmond press tell them.

"You can't sneer at people, call them offensive names like racists, bigots, knickledraggers and idiots and then wonder why they haven't engaged with you."

What are you supposed to do with them? Pander to their ignorance and xenophobia? What if they actually are racists, bigots, knuckledraggers and idiots?

Labour's biggest failure, is to confront that right-wing propaganda and show it up for what it really is. Very difficult when you don't control the mass media. This has been compounded by the 'liberal elite' being somewhat insulated from the experience of others, and not seeing the effects of this propaganda until it's too late. But then, a party once of the left, was hijacked by Blair, which merely served to further strengthen the right. And now we have a situation where the right-wingers in Labour are throwing their toys out of the pram, because Jeremy Corbyn and others had the temerity to want to return Labour to the left again, and actually make it a proper party of opposition, rather than simply the other side of a shit sandwich.

I suppose I'm part of that 'liberal elite'; indeed, Brexit doesn't really affect me, certainly not economically. But I do try to think a bit further than myself, and would much rather live in a better society where things are a bit fairer and less xenophobic than they are now. And I can't see that happening unless there is a radical shift in position by Labour, to the left. We need a better balance in UK politics. I look upon this 'crisis' within Labour as an opportunity to finally get rid of the likes of Hilary Benn, Margaret Hodge, Chuka Umunna, John Mann and all the other self-serving blairite ****s, and get some committed lefties in once more.

by a ballot of hundreds of thousands of Labour party supporters

not strictly true. 😀

*Best. £3. Ever*

Release the Miliband!

What a mess.

From 1974 http://theoryandpractice.org.uk/library/irrational-politics-maurice-brinton-1974

"Let us consider for a moment - and not through rose-tinted spectacles - the average middle-aged working-class voter today (it matters little in this respect whether he votes "Conservative" or "Labour"). He is probably hierarchy-conscious, xenophobic, racially-prejudiced, pro-monarchy, pro-capital-punishment, pro-law-and-order, anti-demonstrator, anti-longhaired students and anti-dropout. He is almost certainly sexually repressed (and hence an avid, if vicarious, consumer of the distorted sexuality endlessly depicted in the pages of the News of the World). No "practical" Party (aiming at power through the ballot-box) would ever dream of appealing to him through the advocacy of wage equality, workers' management of production, racial integration, penal reform, abolition of the monarchy, dissolution of the police, sexual freedom for adolescents or the legalization of pot. Anyone proclaiming this kind of "transitional programme" would not only fail to get support but would probably be considered some kind of a nut."

not strictly true.

Same is going to be the case for the new conservative leader.

*registers*

That's a great quote nick1962.

Not even worth a flutter.

[img] [/img]

wow

Corbyn actually has a pulse!

hes shown more dynamism in the last 5mins than in his last year

Corbyn to last the year at 4/1 seems good odds?

Ken Clarke going all guns blazing.

Corbyn to last the year at 4/1 seems good odds?

I dunno. I think his position will become untenable.

Dennis Skinner walked up to Corbyn in the Commons, shook his hand and then gave the finger to the Labour benches 🙂

Tom Farron is right....where is Gove?

Probably need a PMQs thread really.

not strictly true.

*Best. £3. Ever*

[s]+1[/s]

+ several members of my family

The fine coalition of nutters and giggling conservatives that voted for Jeremy should not be ignored by a Labour party desperately trying to avoid oblivion.

"Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep Jeremy failing here"

It's not Labour's fault that many amongst the 'working classes' have swallowed this propaganda and ended up believing the lies, the manipulation of facts and statistics, and succumbing to the divide and rule ideology of the right.

Well the PLP seem to be saying quite the opposite, or to be precise it was the lack of leadership?

If the Tories/VL etc suggested that this is what happened they would be accused of being rude and patronising. Are you suggesting that the 'working classes' are not able to absorb information and make considered judgements on their own?

bongohoohaa - Member

I dunno. I think his position will become untenable.

I think it already is tbh. TBH it shows an unexpected competence in the plp- turns out that when they decide they want their party to be unelectable, they really go for it. God knows what they could do if they put a fraction as much energy into actually achieving stuff. The next project of course is convincing each other it's because he wasn't sufficiently right wing (and reminding themselves that Tony Blair Made Us Electable Even Though That's Obviously Untrue)

I'd say **** 'em if we didn't need a functioning labour party. Instead I want to go around punching people.

Are you suggesting that the 'working classes' are not able to absorb information and make considered judgements on their own?

I voted Corbyn. I'll vote him in again, even if it's just as a '**** you' to the fundementally disconnected PLP who have NEVER given him a chance, merely biding their time. I appreciate that he's not perfect, but he's honest, and if he gets voted in twice then the axe will REALLY fall on the traitorous bastards.

Are you suggesting that the 'working classes' are not able to absorb information and make considered judgements on their own?

I assume ,putting the usual political divides aside, we are all basically saying that.
they just voted for Gove Boris and IDS as a protest vote at austerity and neo liberal right wing politics

That's like taking heroin to get over your opium addiction

I appreciate that he's not perfect, but he's honest

he has started to play the game [ all leaders need to] but he is shit at it.

I reckon Corbyn just wants to hang on until Chilcott so he can castigate Blair. He must be gutted - just when he is about to be able to get his bogeyman and this happens.

Bet he wishes he'd been a bit more vocal supporting remain now...

I hear what you are saying Junkyard, and I've spotted those inconsistencies too. However I hold the ridiculous press and probably bad advice from his PR people for those glitches. To me, his message is still strong and clear, and calls for dignity and honesty over spin and bullshit.

It seems to be the cosy, well off, woodburning 'liberal' elite, so eager to show their concern when they have nothing at stake who have been quickest to demonise those who disagree with them.

I'm saddened by the eagerness of my class to participate in the electoral equivalent of a riot, but I'm disgusted by the prejudice, petulance and ignorance displayed by some on here recently.

Tony Blair Made Us Electable Even Though That's Obviously Untrue)

FWIW I think Kinnock laid the foundations in sorting out Militant Tendancy (Momentum - sounds similar eh?) and Blair and Brown finished the job.

The next project of course is convincing each other it's because he wasn't sufficiently right wing (and reminding themselves that Tony Blair Made Us Electable Even Though That's Obviously Untrue)

A list of Labour leaders that have enjoyed electoral success in the 37 years since 1979, in order of successfulness:

1. Tony Blair

^^^ this seems lost on so many people

cranberry - Member

A list of Labour leaders that have enjoyed electoral success in the 37 years since 1979, in order of successfulness:

1. Tony Blair

Reasons this happened:

1. John Smith died before the election

what NW says

the reality was the tories were unelectable for almost all of Blairs turn in power and any labour leader would have won

Militant Tendancy (Momentum - sounds similar eh?

It seems to be the cosy, well off, woodburning 'liberal' elite, so eager to show their concern when they have nothing at stake who have been quickest to demonise those who disagree with them.

I'm saddened by the eagerness of my class to participate in the electoral equivalent of a riot, but I'm disgusted by the prejudice, petulance and ignorance displayed by some on here recently.

Exactly my thoughts Rusty Spanner. Derision of the working/lower class who voted how they wanted to shouldnt be going on. All racists - rubbish. most want less immigration, that isnt racism.,
If we'd got a better deal from the EU earlier this year, there'd be none of this nonsense. Cameron was too weak. It should have been a referendum, then, if no better deal for us and reform of the EU, we leave when we've been rejected by the EU.

Edited, said above.

most want less immigration, that isnt racism.

Not all leave voters are racist but it is blindingly obvious some are.

I do agree that broad sweeping statements like all leave voters are racists is also unhelpful and wrong.
However the working classes have just voted for a thing that will hit them hardest, wont deliver what they hope for and will be delivered by folk even more right wing and pro neo liberal capitalism than the ones in power.

The EU is not the source of their woes tory policies are and we just got even more of them
Given they did all this its pretty hard to praise them for an act of self harm.

A list of Labour leaders that have enjoyed electoral success in the 37 years since 1979, in order of successfulness:

1. Tony Blair

Tony Blair wasn't really a Labour Prime Minister though was he? In my opinion 'New Labour' was a [b]]new[/b] party, effectively a centre right one enacting centre right policy.

The emphasis from the Shadow Cabinet objectors continues to be on obtaining power and getting [some form of] 'Labour' into government, rather than working with a socialist agenda. Personally I'd rather see an effective socialist opposition moderating government and working to socialist goals, than another 'New Labour' government doing the Tory's dirty work by proxy; Tony Blair has recently been quoted as saying that Corbyn is about "politics of protest not power" (which doesn't seem a bad thing to me).

Nicely said Junkyard.

Junky, just stop it with the racism shit, it's not helpful.

The failure to address and discuss immigration in a non accusative manner is a big part of why we are where we are.
Racism is a consequence of ignorance and fear, on all sides.
Let's be honest and deal with it.

Making any generalisations about 17 million is daft but I will anyway. I really think that wanting to stick 2 fingers up to the establishment was a big factor- as big as immigration.

Tony Blair wasn't really a Labour Prime Minister though was he?

Numbers of really real Labour leaders that have gained power in the 37 years since 1979:

0.

There, that's *much* better, isn't it ? 😆

[quote=ctk ]Making any generalisations about 17 million is daft but I will anyway. I really think that wanting to stick 2 fingers up to the establishment was a big factor-

[img] [/img]
Transferring power from the guy 3rd from the left to the one 4th from the right certainly did that!

0.

There, that's *much* better, isn't it ?

😆

just stop it with the racism shit, it's not helpful.

It really all depends on how they express this sentiment
Not all leave voters are racist but it is blindingly obvious some are.

Plus ca change 😆

We really need Spitting Image at a time like this!!

[quote=PJay ]We really need Spitting Image at a time like this!!
Nah. If they came up with a storyline that reflected todays position no one would laugh as it would be seen as too far fetched.

Transferring power from the guy 3rd from the left to the one 4th from the right certainly did that!

...although they have put the one 4th from right in a near impossible position.

I think he was looking for a narrow defeat and leadership just before the election.

Instead he'll be dumped in the job in October and at the top of his in tray is choice between a) **** up the economy b) Having campaigned to leave the EU cringe-worthily tell everyone we're not leaving the EU.

More or less the choice Cameron has resigned to avoid!

As it happens, I reckon Boris will be able to pull of b) and everyone will just smile and say "That's just Boris".

Just going to ignore my post are you Cranberry? Not in the least bit surprising, the first thing you have to do if you want to believe that Blair made Labour electable, is carefully forget John Smith.

Johnny, yes I did read your post.

Prejudice and ignorance are intrinsic parts of human nature.
People resort to them when they are scared.

You can't just stick your fingers in your ears and refuse to deal with the this.

Better surely to find out why people are angry than to call them silly names and refuse to listen?

Just going to ignore my post are you Cranberry? Not in the least bit surprising, the first thing you have to do if you want to believe that Blair made Labour electable, is carefully forget John Smith.

Maybe you can explain which elections John Smith won in the space below?

Of course he didnt win any election, but he would have done, as he was a thoroughly decent man, and with the Tories unelectable at the time, he would have had no credible opposition.

Tony Blair seemed like the messiah when he was elected, how we were all fooled - Ecclestone showed this soon after Blair was in office. That's the point that I realised what a big mistake he would be.

cranberry - Member

Maybe you can explain which elections John Smith won in the space below?

Maybe you can explain why you're trying to conflate "made labour electable" with "won a general election"?

(not that it needs explained; it's the only way you can continue to claim that Blair made labour electable- by trying to redefine what that means. Even Blair said that Smith would have won in 97 had he lived.)

Rusty Spanner - Member 
Junky, just stop it with the racism shit, it's not helpful.

Why not its a lot more accurate that the other atttemped explanations - especially in the modern, wider defintion of racism

The failure to address and discuss immigration in a non accusative manner is a big part of why we are where we are.

No. The fact that one side successfully hit the spot by pretending/lying the immigration has had a negative impact on the economy, wages, services etc when there is no evidence to support this, shows that there is a strong undercurrent of xenophobia and more worrying racism in our society.

Racism is a consequence of ignorance and fear, on all sides.

Well at least that true.

Let's be honest and deal with it.

Yes let's - it doesn't help shying away from unpleasant truths.

The failure to address and discuss immigration in a non accusative manner is a big part of why we are where we are.

The problem is it hasn't been called out enough, by all parties. Right back to Brown's bigot comment when he wrongly apologised, politicians have been terrified of standing up to the easy racist blame game for fear of alienating that couple of percent that might swing the next election. But now its too late and the numbers have grown as more got away with it, it became easier and less casual.

False patriotism hiding jingoism hiding racism. Pictures of proud old soldiers who fought against persecution being used to enact it, who would spin in their graves if they realised the hatred that was being pushed with their face on it.

We had an Indian lady in our shop who was going to buy a bracelet until we told her it was handmade in Wales.
She put it back saying the Welsh are racist.
It's going well isn't it?

We don't forget John Smith Northwind, he was a wonderful and principaled man but I am not sure he would have won as did Blair

Back when the match is finished.
🙂

So close to a third.

Edit: Erm....I'll see myself to the correct thread.

Lol an Indian calling the Welsh racist!

[quote=ctk ]Lol an Indian calling the Welsh racist!
I was going to say "pot calling the kettle black" but I fear that's not PC these days