Jeremy Corbyn

ninfan is quite right. Some of my best friends describe themselves as "working class" 😯 and voted leave for precisely those reasons. They see all around them shifting sands, the destruction of a country they had come have pride in and a perception that they had been left behind and that no one was speaking for, or listening to them.

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

The management of the European project has failed because of the incompetence of those who were meant to be steering it. A huge, if not the biggest task, was to carry it's Citizens with it. They seem to have failed and plunged us in to chaos and it is THEY who are to blame.

But there has not been the political honesty by any of our leaders to admit it. And it's broader than just leaders, it is a fault of establishment and the metropolitan/cosmopolitans that are described in the BBC research chaps memo.

Its nothing new of course

[i]“Most of our people have never had it so good”[/i]

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

Correct. But it is them who will suffer.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK...

Tad elitist of you.

Corbyn was set up by Blarite PR company

"a single heckler shouts at Jeremy Corbyn at Gay Pride, and not only is that front page news in the Guardian, it is on BBC, ITN and Sky News.

"What makes a single individual heckling a politician newsworthy? ... this heckler, uniquely, is front page news and his words are repeated at great length in the Guardian and throughout the broadcast media."

"The “heckler” is Tom Mauchline, [b]a PR professional[/b] for PR firm Portland Communications, a dedicated Blairite (he describes himself as Gouldian) [b]formerly working on the Liz Kendall leadership campaign[/b]. [b]Portland Communications’ “strategic counsel” is Alastair Campbell.
[/b]
So far from representing a popular mood, Mauchlyne was this morning on twitter urging people to sign a 38 Degrees petition supporting the no confidence motion against Corbyn. [b]Ten hours later that petition has gained 65 signatures, compared to 120,000 for a petition supporting Corbyn. "[/b]

Quoted from
[url= https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/news-agenda-set/ ]https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/news-agenda-set/[/url]

[b]SAVE CORBYN
petition at[/b]

[url= https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit ]https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit[/url]

Over [b]184,000[/b] signed so far and rising rapidly.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK...
Tad elitist of you.

Didn't mean it to come across that way. However, I'll take some convincing that a factory worker at a car plant which may now move to the EU will suffer less than a white collar middle class worker who has far more social mobility.

I don't think it will be pretty for anyone, but I think it's fairly undeniable that it will hit the poor the hardest

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain't going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people's lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I'll be honest, I can't see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

I like Corbyn and think he would make a smashing next door neighbour. He also stops the labour party from being electable. Which is nice.

Who would make Labour electable?

I think Corbs should be given a fair crack of the whip by his party (never mind the media)

Benn funny on Marr saying:

Brexit vote must be followed through because democracy.

Corbyn must be kicked out never mind democracy.

If you look at the global reaction to Brexit, it is pretty clear that this is the UK's Trump moment. A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

[quote=imnotverygood ]A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

Blimey 9 months ago I bought Jezza at 475 days in a fit of optimism!!!

Then able to sell to ro5ey at 490 pretty quickly.

He might last 475 days! What was I thinking?

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain't going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people's lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I'll be honest, I can't see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

You mean they disagreed with you. You are just sounding like a bad loser. Just like the youth voters complaining the oldies robbed them when part of the reason for the result was the low turnout among young voters.

So who said voting never changed anything?

ctk - Member

Who would make Labour electable?

Bizarre isn't it. All this effort for the last year to kick out their leader but nobody has the slightest idea who they'd want to replace him. Imagine if the day John Major was kicked out, the Tories had looked around and gone "Hmm. How about whotsisname? Oh he doesn't want the job? Whatsername? Oh she was 2nd last, last time... That guy with the funny name that's spent the last year stabbing everyone in the back? Yeah, he'll inspire trust..."

Still say the same thing, the only thing making Corbyn unelectable is the Labour party. The whole party is just on the piss. But maybe that's in keeping with current day politics 😆

It makes no rational sense because an area like Ebbw Vale will now not get the EU grants it has been receiving. Those voting Leave have no real answer as to how they are practically going to make things better. Making things worse because your life is already bad is not rational. Sorry.

What I'm hearing from disaffected Labour MPs is basically "we need a godlike figure who the proles will blindly follow, Corbyn ain't it."

And its true I suppose. Until Labour sort out their direction the only hope is a personality big enough that policies don't matter.

it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind

No, I don't think its as simple as a protest vote - I think its actually a cry out for representation because Labour (in particular) left these 'White working class' people behind.

We keep talking about the 'Blairites' but in many ways it misrepresents the problem, its the 'Islington set' and oxbridge PPE that surrounded them that rotted the party from the inside with gesture politics and thinking that words and presentation are more important than gesture or deeds. Corbin and Abbott are as guilty of that as Balls and Kendall. Labour became the party of the public sector rather than the party of the working classes. The unions did much the same, led by politicians who played politics with the lives and jobs of their members in an attempt to prove a point or overthrow the government, rather than represent them, all living in a London bubble, "the working class can kiss my arse, I've got the foreman job at last"

IMO one of the worst crimes over the last few years is that the Labour leadership increasingly lumped together the 'working classes and the 'benefits cases' as if they were the same, in need of charity and pity - they fought to protect their benefits rather than fighting to provide them with jobs. They mossed the fact that these weren't people who wanted to sit on their arses or work in minimum wage jobs subsidised by benefits, they were people who were hugely aspirational and wanted better for themselves and their kids.

Thats why the Tory/Blairite agenda of aspiration and hard work appealed to them - It didn't rob them of their pride like the Miliband and Corbynite anti austerity agenda, and you only need to see how many of them hate the "beer and fags and benefits" estate types that the Labour party seem to find it impossible to criticise.

I could list a similar, much longer list of criticism of where Thatcher and the Tories went wrong. But I grew up in a Labour household with a dad who was a factory electrician and union shop steward who worked his bollocks off to give us good things, and a mum who was an office manager in manufacturing sector and then the civil service. My mum is the classic example of a lost Labour voter, she has seen her area and her community torn apart under both Labour and the Tories - but there's only one of the two she feels bitter about. She voted out.

It's funny, how if this is all about immigration, then why did the places with the most immigration, ie the mahjority of large cities, largely vote to remain?

It'd bugger all to do with immigration.

It'd bugger all to do with immigration.

😯

seosamh - everyone over 60 in my family voted leave. Every single one of them did so because 'we've had enough of immigration'. This is a small sample but this has a lot to do with immigration sadly.

perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.

perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.

+1

The whole immigration argument is incredibly sinister, I and plenty others want no part of it.

And yes it is there in the like of glasgow too, I'd to walk away from a couple of people (npo voters) in work over it on friday morning. They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.

Whether it is perception or not a number of leave voters identify immigration as the issue. Of the leave voters I know none of them identified anything else as a reason to vote leave.

Given 25% of doctors in the NHS in which I work are non UK it makes me feel somewhat disappointed.

EDIT

It'd bugger all to do with immigration.

Thats right, keep ignoring them, keep repeating the party line and keep reading out the tractor statistics

[img] [/img]

That's a nice chart of utter bullshit.

They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.

This is a totally serious question.

What makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

I lived in govanhill for the last 6 years of my life, I've had family connections to the area since long before I was born, so I have plenty of real life experience of living in the most multicultural part of glasgow. Not their near 100% white schemes.

Which means what?

That they have to like and accept multikulti, because you don't mind it?

Again, what makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

It proves my assertion above that their opinion is based on perception, not real experience.

It doesn't matter what its based on

they still have an opinion, they still have a belief, they still have a vote

so what makes yours more important that theirs?

It'd bugger all to do with immigration.

Believe me it was. Over and over again it was the one reason for Brexit that kept coming up with my friends ( working class ones ) and customers.
ninfan's post's hit the mood of many Brexit voters head on. Like him I could list many examples of how "real" people have lost out to immigration. The're not racists or stupid just that their opinions have been formed by actual life experiences.

Ninfan nails it.

You can't sneer at people, call them offensive names like racists, bigots, knickledraggers and idiots and then wonder why they haven't engaged with you.

One thing we repeatedly hear working in sales is "you have 2 ears and one mouth. Use them proportionally". The politicians and the chattering classes would do well to heed this advice. If a lot of people (I.e. not a few loons but a significant number as we've seen) express similar opinions, concerns and perceptions of their world (and remember perception IS reality), those in a position of influence need to listen, absorb, understand and work on the issues raised, not shout them down as we have seen and continue to see.

shoosh ninfan.

Lets take a random example.

stoke on trent.
69.4% out

96.3% of the population of Stoke-on-Trent were born in the UK.

ashfeild
69.8% out.

98% english.

@ninfan I admire your persistance but they are not listening and are in denial.

IMHO London central voted IN as people believed their jobs are at risk from an Leave vote, what's interesting is most of the commuter belt was much more even with many Leave areas too.

Theres little logic in your argument Joseph -

Windsor and maidenhead - 90.2% White, Voted to remain (53.9%)

neighbouring Slough - [b]45.7% White[/b], voted to leave [b](54.3%)[/b]

(I recognise that I am using colour as a proxy for immigration, which is over simplistic, but I haven't found the 'born in the uk' statistics

Go figure 😆

Which goes to prove that's it a very complex issue. Trying to say immigration is thee issue is disingenuous at best.

What I'm hearing from disaffected Labour MPs is basically "we need a godlike figure who the proles will blindly follow, Corbyn ain't it."

David Miliband is back in the country, new MP for Batley?, the Messiah for labour? Mugging up on Neil Kinnocks battles with militant?

You know how race hate laws work - that its classed as a racial incident if it is perceived by the victim as being racially motivated

Well, why not look at Brexit the same way - that the vote is classed as being motivated by immigration if the voter who actually cast it perceives that they were motivated by immigration, rather than how some sneering public sector lefty who's never met them thinks they ought to have been motivated.

On that basis, it really was very much to do with immigration.

Which goes to prove that's it a very complex issue.

Very true, it reaches across political divides like no other issue with each voting for the same thing for polar opposite reasons. This is also what makes the post leave transition so complex as neither the conservative or labour parties have united views

David Miliband is back in the country

I thought he was the right choice instead of Ed

Andy Burnham would be the front runner I think

Enjoy an independent England and Wales, Ninfan, lock the doors, start the repatriations, see ye.

neighbouring Slough - 45.7% White, voted to leave (54.3%)

At a guess that's n'th generation immigrants wanting to pull up the ladder behind them.

That they have to like and accept multikulti, because you don't mind it?

Again, what makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

Wow - is that what it comes to? In Britain we have a significant electorate who vote based on their dislike of other cultures, which drives the most important decisions facing our country? Depressing, or what?

Joe, perhaps you missed page 1 of the BS "why vote leave" document

Why should we Vote Leave on 23 June
• The PM’s deal leaves the EU in charge of the same things after his negotiation as before (no really)
• It is not legally binding - the European Court can tear it up the day after the referendum
• This is dangerous. We will keep sending at least £350 million a week abroad 😉
• [b]Immigration will continue out of control putting public services like the NHS under strain[/b]
• [b]The European Court will be in charge of our borders, immigration, asylum [/b]and even our intelligence services
• If we Vote Leave, we will take back control and can spend our money on our priorities

Bugger all to do with immigration? How could we have got it so wrong?

Thm, if you're happy for it all to go down that, incredibly sinister, route... All the very best of luck to you.

Bring this back to corbyn and away from ninfan etcs sinister plans.

Do the PLP really believe that ignoring the result of the grassroots election and going tonto on Corbyn is really a good move? Considering it's perceived that it was the labour grassroots that revolted and caused all this mess?

Like most, I am extremely unhappy about it. Shameful campaign. Please don't insult people with denials.

sitting back and letting the lunatics take over isn't really an option.

Thats right - far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them, because they're stupid and poor so will still vote for Labour at the next election anyway.

Anyway - agreed no mileage in expecting honesty - back to Corbyn while he is still around.

Bet he wished he had never agreed to bring some debate to the leadership election after all.

far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them

Have you ever tried to reason with someone from a Newcastle council estate about why they shouldn't use the words ****s, darkies and puffs? I have many times. I admire your willingness to engage with and understand these people but how you do that without lowering yourself to that level? Because the only way to even get to first base with this sort of ignorant bigotry is to excuse and appease it. I gave up on that a long time ago I'm afraid. If racists don't want people to call them racists, there's a very simple solution.

Back to Corbyn. Having voted for him in September as one of the £3ers, I won't be doing so again. It was a worthy cause and experiment, but the brexit vote has changed the political landscape so much that luxuries like Corbyn can no longer be afforded. Not sure who next, Heidi Alexander maybe?

EDIT: And WTF was Tom Watson doing at Glastonbury while all this has been going on?

Back to Corbyn. Having voted for him in September as one of the £3ers, I won't be doing so again. It was a worthy cause and experiment, but the brexit vote has changed the political landscape so much that luxuries like Corbyn can no longer be afforded.

Interesting, I think it was Hilary Benn who said much the same thing about people who'd voted for Corbyn but would not do so again.

Hilary Benn has proven to be as disloyal, disruptive and egotistical as his father was.
No great surprise.

I don't think I trust Andy Burnham.
Wonderful work on Hillsborough, but a bit Blairy for me.

So I'll vote for JC, because despite some reservations, I believe he is fundamentally more decent, honest and true to the ideals of our party than any of the alternatives.

ninfan - Member
Thats right - far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them, because they're stupid and poor so will still vote for Labour at the next election anyway.

I don't have 2 bob to rub together beyond my wages, I voted in, I'm well aware blaming the poor or the old or which ever group is an incredibly simplistic and unhelpful view.

I however, am perfectly fine with calling you and your ilk racist, you know the ones opening proliferating this utterly sinister immigration agenda. To go straight to the point, **** you.

😆

I believe he is fundamentally more decent, honest and true to the ideals of our party than any of the alternatives.

If there's one thing the EU referendum has taught us it's that we don't want people like that.

Lying and deceitful politicians is what we want more of.

I'd vote Corbyn again.

I think if there is another leadership challenge and Corbyn wins some people will need to give up their seats.

Some polling (maybe Ashcroft?) said 75% of Labour voters voted remain.

Tbh that wouldn't surprise me considering biggest in votes where the cities.

I think if there is another leadership challenge and Corbyn wins.....

If it goes to a ballot how will he get nominated? I don't think the rules allow for the incumbent to automatically go onto the ballot paper without the required amount of nominations.

Last time he only got the required amount of nominations in the final last minutes. And that was only because it was considered that he stood no chance at all of winning.

The Parliamentary Labour Party doesn't give a toss what Labour Party members want, only what they want matters.

For most of them deselection is a completely unrealistic threat.

Labour Party structures are really rotten and corrupt thanks to Tony Blair, a fact which few people seem to appreciate.

What makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?

The fact that his is based upon fact?

I believe he is fundamentally more decent, honest and true to the ideals of our party than any of the alternatives.

Though it seems honesty is what he is being criticised for. Not being an EU true believer he didn't campaign for it wholeheartedly.

AS he said previously

"I would advocate a No vote if we are going to get an imposition of free market policies across Europe",

In another debate, hosted by the Fabian Society, he said he had "mixed feelings" on the EU, and at a hustings in Warrington said he would not rule out campaigning to leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35743994

Though it seems honesty is what he is being criticised for. Not being an EU true believer he didn't campaign for it wholeheartedly.

As seen previously with JC everytime he is faced with something he doesnt agree with he does a slightly reserved sulky kid impression ( national anthem, trident etc). Can you afford to excuse it as "I did my best " if sometimes someone else might have done better?

I am worried about the larger issues and decisions that may come up if he became prime minister if this is his starting point.

I am worried about the larger issues and decisions that may come up if he became prime minister if this is his starting point.

At this point he needs to be standing up and explaining a vision for the UK in the wake of a No Vote in tangible and achievable terms with a reason as to why labour needs to be involved in the process going forward rather than being marginaliased yet again.

everytime he is faced with something he doesnt agree with he does a slightly reserved sulky kid impression ( national anthem, trident etc).

There is nothing "slightly reserved sulky kid" about Corbyn with regards to Trident and the national anthem.

Like the SNP which won a resounding victory in Scotland Corbyn is strongly opposed to Trident replacement.

And there was nothing slightly reserved sulky kid about silently showing respect at a memorial service instead of enthusiastically bellowing "God save our gracious Queen", which apart from anything else are ridiculous words.

Go on, remind us now how he didn't bow low enough before the Queen and it caused hysteria among the right-wing media. That's always a good criticism of Corbyn.

What a mess....it's all a great big F#######G MESS!

It's now reported that Tom Watson has told Corbyn he has lost authority in PLP. Corbyn is surely now a deadman walking.

Corbyn is surely now a deadman walking.

Everyone knows he will have to quit, why not just get on with it?

I can't see this ending in any other way than a new SDP being formed. The two wings of the Labour party are too far apart.

he never led the PLP he has the support of all members of the party except the PLP

this is an issue a major issue and is in danger of creating civil war between the two.

I see no obvious solution

Its actually quite pathetic now - in the true sense of the word. As I said several months ago, this must be a nightmare for Corbyn and not good for his health.

He didnt want the job
He is ill-equipped for it
He is lacking leadership skills and clearly not a statesmen
He is the wrong guy, in the wrong place and the wrong time

Its amazing that political parties do this to themselves - or at least that their members chose people who are so obviously wrong. Its not just Labour, the Tories are just as guilty.

FFS, lets get this silly period over. We need an effective opposition with strong and effective leadership.

When you are a protest politician you can vote against everything with impunity. When you are a leader you have to lead and negotiate some tricky conflicts. Very different. IMHO if Corbyn had not been the leader he would have campaigned for Leave. He found himself in a no win position, or maybe he got the outcome he really wanted

Are the unions and a lot of party members not still in support of him though?

Which then runs the risk that they feel their own parties MPs are ignoring their wishes? Oh, back to normal then for politics. Tongue firmly in cheek.

When you are a protest politician you can vote against everything with impunity. When you are a leader you have to lead and negotiate some tricky conflicts. Very different.

As Bojo and Gove are about to find out

Yes, there is the irony that he has grass roots support even if he/they chose to be on different sides of this debate.