Jeremy Corbyn

Half-hearted ? When did this become true?

Wasn't Alan Johnson in charge?

Media only interested in Tory in fighting.

Stage 1 get yourself into the media debate.
Stage 2 arrange a large wooden horse for your support in the country to infiltrate your party at, let's say, 3 quid a pop.
Stage 3 use your new power base to promote your few PLP buddies to the front bench.
Stage 4 appear, reluctantly.to back the eventual loser in an international political earthquake when everybody knows you're lying through your teeth about it.
Stage 4 then provoke a showdown in the PLP resulting in sackings and resignations.
Stage 5 complete the takeover.

Stage 6.... Hello SDP 2.0.

Benn on Marr now. No punches pulled so far ....

"a good and decent man, but not a leader....."

NSS!!!!

I thought it started at 9 - buggar booting computer niw

Damn forget to reset my watch 🙁

I suspect corbyn supporters will still support him as and the last research I saw showed that he easily had enough grass roots support tp win another vote

Clearly he cannot carry the PLP and the labour party is split between members and elected officials

I suspect corbyn supporters will still support him as and the last research I saw showed that he easily had enough grass roots support tp win another vote

Hilary will "reluctantly" allow himself to be persuaded by the rest of the anti-Corbyn PLP to run for the leadership.

Junky - yes I susoect they will still vote for him in any challenge but its curious as he's delivered a Leave vote by his relative inaction. What I wondered is if many of those Momentum types ahd voted Leave as per left leave etc

I have voted Labour in every general/council election I have been able to (1992). I live in the North and work in manufacturing. Presumably this makes me a 'core labour voter?'

I am pro-Europe, pro-nuclear power and pro-Trident.

I will never vote for the labour party with Corbyn in charge. Elections are won from the centre ground. Doesn't matter how popular you are with your momentum pals.

PS my current view is Corbyn is desperate to get to the Hutton report publication so he can tell us all how vindicated he is. In the meantime Rome burns.

Just realised how rambling my post it - **** it - I'm going to ride over some passes now because I am so hacked off with what my country and party seem to have become.

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-36570120
Clever games, get the crisis in while the Tories get in line for theirs, by Tuesday the front pages will be about Tory Civil war - well if more than one has the balls to step up. Didn't somebody mention a Major moment again....

IDS on Marr just now confirming that 350m was a lie.

Tuesday mike? Sunday Torygraphy already has this as its headline

Both major parties in a bloody mess. We have unleashed some "interesting" events now.....interesting and appalling in equal measure.

Extraordinary times to have a political vacuum with FA leadership. Great...

THM, at least it's not come out in the streets yet... going to be plenty of it and hard to find a cabinet for a bit

a muddy, Tubby Watson, on his way back from Glasto to paddle about in some more shit back at westminster 🙂

https://twitter.com/Laura_K_Hughes/status/746992729100541952

[img] :large[/img]

DrJ yawn, that's not what he said at all. What he said it was up to the Government of the day to decide.

@AD not rambling at all, coherant and totally understandable stance.

@Stoner top repost ! Have met him a few times at Hacked Off events

DrJ yawn, that's not what he said at all. What he said it was up to the Government of the day to decide

He said that support to farmers, Wales etc would have to continue, and of what was left some may be spent on the NHS. The promise was to spend 350m on the NHS. Lie.

DrJ yawn, that's not what he said at all. What he said it was up to the Government of the day to decid

Elections are won from the centre ground.

Have you noticed the results of a referendum we had recently?

Jambas, it ok, folk can start telling the truth now, The end has been achieved, the means can change now surely...?

Judging by this morning, perhaps not.

JMcD just had a tricky 5 mins with Neill

Have you noticed the results of a referendum we had recently?

and to put this government of the day stuff to bed

BoJo/Gove/IDS etc. are at the forefront of the party of government and in the event of a decisive victory odds on to pick up the 3 top jobs. Making claims and running away from them tells you exactly what you need to hear. they don't give a **** about the people or the country.
they have tricked lied and bluffed their way to get them over the line.
They now are at the point where a ponzi scheme comes unstuck, all those promises are to be repaid and delivered on.

Letting them off with "they were only ideas" is BS

TMH at the Referendum debate Boris used the £10bn figure as the amount available

The Remain side are clutching at straws here, people in Sunderland didn't vote Leave because of what's written on a red bus

@5th - as jamba put it:

Wishful thinking. the Leave vote in the North of England was very strong, ie in support of the central UKIP pollicy.

The Remain side are clutching at straws here, people in Sunderland didn't vote Leave because of what's written on a red bus

Eh? Did they see the bus and say "I recognise that is an idea not a promise or a proposal, and in any case refers to a gross figure and not the actual funds available. Nevertheless I will walk my whippet down to the polling station and vote Leave "

The Remain side are clutching at straws here, people in Sunderland didn't vote Leave because of what's written on a red bus

How does Labour represent them? Do they want to? Should they?

@5th - as jamba put it:

Jambas, mon ami, keep believing what you WANT to believe.

Blair, yes him, actually said something sensible on Andrew Neil. The devil really is in the detail so you boys better stop bluffing and work out what to do. This IS serious it's not longer a silly Tory game of who's next in the hot seat.

Powerful events have been set off that we don't know how to deal with. We have to have some leadership and no one is stepping up to the plate. Indeed they are all looking after number one. Pathetic.

Anyone listen to Frank Field on the radio Sat am? He's no fan of Blairites and not to impressed with JC after referendum. Thought he spoke much sense and would (to me) make a Labour leader I could support. Its just my view I'm not assassinating JC just trying to be practical as I think he could make most Tories look like numpties to much of the electorate.

Agreed on Blair generally talks sense, sadly large sections of the Labour Party aren't willing to listen.

I never saw this as a game which is why for the first time ever I personally took part in campaigning.

@mike

Below is not my priority order but what I heard

No doubt the insanity of uncontrolled immigration a system which exists no where else in the world was a major issue, probably the number 1.

Second-ish I think was lack of democracy at the EU combined with the move to the Euroepean superstate

I say Second-ish as the Remain campaign's involvement of external agents like Obama and political organisation's like IMF and the accusations of "racism" created a strong FU response. I spoke to a neighbour yesterday who said those accusations in particular hardened her view to vote Leave

How would the Corbyn supporters who elected him to the leadership have voted in the Referendum ? (Remain I imagine) What is their reaction to his half hearted campaigning ? Will they continue to support him as they are somewhat conflicted ?

When you talk about Corbyn supporters, are you talking about party members or the electorate?
I'm very quickly discovering that capering about like buffoons slapping one another with red herrings seems to be the public face of modern politics..

I don't think Corbyn's lacklustre campaigning over the referendum will have any bearing on his popularity to be honest.. The referendum was a ridiculous double edged sword with neoliberal capitalism winning either way.. I'm not surprised that he refused to fully engage with the whole sordid farce

All this smoke and mirrors, distraction techniques and propaganda machinery are diametrically opposed to Corbyn's transparent politics

Now that the latest slight of hand trick is over, as the referendum fever fades, I think that the bullshit you deal in will fast become an outdated joke

I say Second-ish as the Remain campaign's involvement of external agents like Obama and political organisation's like IMF and the accusations of "racism" created a strong FU response. I spoke to a neighbour yesterday who said those accusations in particular hardened her view to vote Leave

That is no basis on which to make such an important decision, and is just indicative of the problem with the referendum as a whole.

I see. So accusations of racism led your neighbour to vote with a racist mob. Naturally.

I spoke to a neighbour yesterday who said those accusations in particular hardened her view to vote Leave

I've found similar.

The "deserters will be shot" line from Brussels just wound up Leave voters moreso.

Great so Immigration that happen across the EU - it might amaze you but under the awesome Aussie scheme we still have this sort of fear of immigrants. Leave exploited the fear though and never turned down the support of the right wing.

The EU superstate BS again, more pedalling fear

Great, no actual real reasons and a lot of smoke and mirrors. That is the biggest problem going forward. The leave vote will not fix any of the problems some of these people have. With an abandonment of the 350 million, immigration etc. within 24 hrs of the vote leave might just have found out how other parties/campaigners felt. Good luck when they ask again

yunki:

https://twitter.com/election_data/status/746970961761669120

In my poll of Labour members from February 81% were voting to Remain. 82% of those who voted for JC in the leadership contest were Remain.

The "deserters will be shot" line from Brussels just wound up Leave voters moreso.

well of course... remain was obviously the least troublesome outcome

what's your point stoner?

The "deserters will be shot" line from Brussels just wound up Leave voters moreso.

Perhaps the turkeys should have listened?

For some bizarre reason, this song sprung to mind

Amos:
If someone stood up in a crowd
And raised his voice up way out loud
And waved his arm and shook his leg
You'd notice him

If someone in the movie show
Yelled "Fire in the second row
This whole place is a powder keg!"
You'd notice him

And even without clucking like a hen
Everyone gets noticed, now and then,
Unless, of course, that personage should be
Invisible, inconsequential me!

Cellophane
Mister Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Mister Cellophane
'Cause you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there...

I tell ya
Cellophane
Mister Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Mister Cellophane
'Cause you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there...

Suppose you was a little cat
Residin' in a person's flat
Who fed you fish and scratched your ears?
You'd notice him

Suppose you was a woman, wed
And sleepin' in a double bed
Beside one man, for seven years
You'd notice him

A human being's made of more than air
With all that bulk, you're bound to see him there
Unless that human bein' next to you
Is unimpressive, undistinguished
You know who...

Cellophane
Mister Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Mister Cellophane
'Cause you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there...
I tell ya
Cellophane
Mister Cellophane
Shoulda been my name
Mister Cellophane
'Cause you can look right through me
Walk right by me
And never know I'm there
Never even know I'm there.

[b]Hope I didn't take up too much of your time.[/b]

we shall see in the last bit 😉

I see. So accusations of racism led your neighbour to vote with a racist mob. Naturally.

DrJ you are still making the same mistakes over and over again. It was this sort of name calling which was part of the reason Remain lost. It failed totally to make a positive case and spent its energy on such abuse.

Yes, she was mightily offended as indeed was I as you know. It only serves to harden opinion. Many here don't like Norman Tebbitt but he's no mug, when UKIP was becoming a political force he said if you where a shop keeper and your customers where now shopping elsewhere you didn't get them back by calling them names.

The EU could have put Cameron in a winning position with a few meaningful concessions but they refused.

@Yunki - no I mean rank and file members who voted for him

if you where a shop keeper and your customers where now shopping elsewhere you didn't get them back by calling them names.

Does your shop keeper have a sign on his door saying "no blacks and no Irish" like all the other racists.

Just great - Corbyn is just as deceitful as the rest... How does this square with his new 'transparent and honest politics'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238

AD I would not be surprised, he was really tepid and given his prior 30 years of campaigning against the EU and his principals I think it's very understandable. In hindsight it would have had more credibility if he'd allowed another MP to lead the Labour Remain campaign and he sat it out

@MSP 52% ouf our country is not racist, nor is the 100% of the US, Canada and Australia etc who have controlled immigration

nor is the 100% of the US, Canada and Australia etc who have controlled immigration

Dr J you are making the same mistakes over and over again. It was this sort of name calling which was part of the reason Remain lost. It failed totally to make a positive case and spent its energy on such abuse.

Which part is the mistake? Is UKIP not a racist mob? If people don't like being called raciats they should demonstrate that they stand apart from the racist arguments.

Not every one of those 52% are racist no. But they stood back willfully and let elements within stir up, chase and cultivate the racist vote. That's what took them over the line.

Twitter stole my joke 🙁

https://twitter.com/JueRobWilPo/status/747038775092584448

Laura Kuenssberg is jambalaya and I claim my £5

FFS seriously, no racists there

I didn't say none did I, I said not 100%

@ctk LK is younger and much cuter than I, she also looks far better in a skirt or indeed trousers (not intended to be at all sexist mods)

EDIT: sorry thread overload, meant this elsewhere

[s]Personally I think the Leave win would have been far larger without the 2 day registration extension (2 million I heard although its believed many didn't actually bother to vote) and also the appalling murder of Jo Cox[/s]

Not every one of those 52% are racist no. But they stood back willfully and let elements within stir up, chase and cultivate the racist vote. That's what took them over the line.

A, probably significant, portion of that vote would have been against the numbers caused by uncontrolled immigraton, not the races involved. Calling them all racists is disingenuous and maybe even just as bigotted as those that did vote on racist grounds.

The EU superstate BS again, more pedalling fear

Ever closer political union...

A, probably significant, portion of that vote would have been against the numbers caused by uncontrolled immigraton, not the races involved. Calling them all racists is disingenuous and maybe even just as bigotted as those that did vote on racist grounds.

The EU superstate BS again, more pedalling fear

Ever closer political union...

Anything to substantiate that? Don't tell me in pictures leaders have been seen to be 2mm closer together. My personal view? The world needs less borders not more

Ever closer political union...

Nobody has ever managed to articulate a sensible reason as to why this is so undesirable, given current global trajectories.

You two are on FIRE.

How is life in Australia and Tasmania BTW ?

The EU could have put Cameron in a winning position with a few meaningful concessions but they refused.

honestly man flu, red wine, single malt and archer....
honestly it's like leave is Archer without the fluke wins

edit - don't you just hate it when you hit it onto the next page

A, probably significant, portion of that vote would have been against the numbers caused by uncontrolled immigraton, not the races involved. Calling them all racists is disingenuous and maybe even just as bigotted as those that did vote on racist grounds.

As has been said before, it's not racist to be concerned about the effects of immigration. What is racist is to ascribe the major problems facing the country to foreigners, in the absence of any evidence that those foreigners are responsible. It is the choice of VL to make that the main issue in their campaign that leads me to describe them as racists.

So how many of them were willing to listen to the facts about immigration and look at the numbers and figures collected?

For * sake

dont you get it?

these people stopped listening to statistics and numbers and "facts" peddled by politicians [b]years[/b] ago, because they [b]know[/b] its all b**ks, they know that every politician, of every party, has repeatedly promised and served up a bowl of * and sworn blind to them that its ice cream.

They have been told by ALL the major parties for decades that the EEC was helping them - while they watched their factories closed and moved abroad. They witnessed places like Cadbury and Terrys, Ford and Renault, build new factories in Poland (etc) and close their plants here. ALL the politicians denied to their faces that this was happening, ALL the politicians told them that immigration was vital for the economy, while they watched their wages and conditions get worse, and thousands of Eastern Europeans and other immigrants arrive and get handed houses here - and all the time the politicians told them this wasn't happening either, although these people were living next door.

these are the people who already know that the "facts" being peddled were always going to be rubbish

What happened in this referendum was that people with a half decent lifestyle clung onto the greasy pole of remain, out of sheer fear of losing what they already had, while those who had nothing listened to the dire warnings of armageddon and said 'sod it, I've got nothing to lose, they're all liars, they've shafted us left right and centre, called us idiots and racists and bigots and not listened to us for years - * them all" and voted accordingly

"they're cutting off their noses to spite their face" say the sneering liberal intelligentsia - The truth is that half of these people are so sick of it all that they would happily steer this whole thing into the ****ing ground just to hear the screams of sheer terror from their bourgeoise overlords

For * sake

dont you get it?

these people stopped listening to statistics and numbers and 'facts peddled by politicians years ago, because they know its all b**ks, they know that every politician, of every party, has repeatedly promised and served up a bowl of **** and sworn blind to them that its ice cream.

the problem with facts is sometimes they don't support your view of the world.

The problem with 'facts' bring peddled by politicians is that they don't represent the day to day reality that these people are witnessing

If you're too stupid to know that 'facts' can't be, and aren't being, manipulated to suit the agenda of the politicians peddling them, then you probably deserve the vote less than the 'idiots and racists' that you're sneering down at.

The problem with 'facts' bring peddled by politicians is that they don't represent the day to day reality that these people are witnessing

Fine

keep ignoring them

sit happily with the tractor production figure 'facts' that you have read in the latest party leaders bulletin, and lose the next election

its fine by me 😆

ninfan - Member
Fine

keep ignoring them

It doesn't matter what the 'facts' are, it is the perception that influences people

Just what these people want - Righteous lefties sneering down their noses and telling them they're wrong, because thats worked so well for the Labour party over the last decade 🙄

Good luck at the next election 😉

It doesn't matter what the 'facts' are, it is the perception that influences people

POSTED 6 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
ninfan - Member
Just what these people want - Righteous lefties sneering down their noses and telling them they're wrong, because thats worked so well for the Labour party over the last decade

Yay

OK then, the dark is scary, there is an army of killer spiders that I have sent over in giant bike boxes
On top of this we have smuggled hundreds of special magic virus containing midges into the UK....

maybe if the people spreading the rumours and half truths would get back to the truth then it would be a bit easier. Unless you like spreading right wing shit

Again, its fine, keep on the way you have been, feel free not to learn anything from what happened this week.

it really is fine by me 😀

It is I see, you like to push the lies about immigrants?

David Cowling, the BBC’s head of political research, in an internal memo…

“It seems to me that the London bubble has to burst if there is to be any prospect of addressing the issues that have brought us to our current situation. There are many millions of people in the UK who do not enthuse about diversity and do not embrace metropolitan values yet do not consider themselves lesser human beings for all that. Until their values and opinions are acknowledged and respected, rather than ignored and despised, our present discord will persist. Because these discontents run very wide and very deep and the metropolitan political class, confronted by them, seems completely bewildered and at a loss about how to respond (“who are these ghastly people and where do they come from?” doesn’t really hack it). The 2016 EU referendum has witnessed the cashing in of some very bitter bankable grudges but I believe that, throughout this 2016 campaign, Europe has been the shadow not the substance.”

It is I see, you like to push the lies about immigrants?

Ah, I disagree with you, so by my very nature I *must* be a racist.

You ought to try that one to mix it up a bit while you're out on the doorsteps telling people how stupid they are for voting out or not supporting Jeremy 😈

not at all but you seem to want to push on lies. I'll talk to anyone, never voted labour and no fan of Corbyn.
There are some good points out there..
The facts (actual facts) say immigration is a net benefit.
The facts that the reason people are not doing well is nothing to do with the EU
The facts that the very people promising to save them from the EU have no interest in them at all apart from on Thursday will become apparent
Hopefully
[img] [/img]
They have ****ed over a lot of people

The facts (actual facts) say immigration is a net benefit.

[i]There was a statistician that drowned crossing a river... It was 3 feet deep on average. [/i]

very true stoner but when educated (perhaps) people continue to stir up racist hatred for their own purposes it stinks

I was rather lazily trying to bridge the chasm between the "facts" of net migration and ninfan's "on the ground" experiences of the proles.

Both are more-or-less true statements. But there has not been the political honesty by any of our leaders to admit it. And it's broader than just leaders, it is a fault of establishment and the metropolitan/cosmopolitans that are described in the BBC research chaps memo.

At a higher, bureaucratic, level still, the European leadership and their default siege position when criticised over the weaknesses in the European plan has left the door open for many to want to reject the whole plan. If at any stage in the last three years the likes of Shultz, Juncker and Tusk offered up an ounce of humility and a willingness to make concessions rather than stamp on doggedly, this could all have been nipped in the bud long ago.

How is life in Australia and Tasmania BTW ?

Given the mess people seem to have made of the U.K. in the past couple of days, the northern island is looking better and better. I'll let MWS fill you in on the Mainland, not been down there for a while, too frigging cold!