Jeremy Corbyn

Look at the transition though Ernie, first he ditched the t-shirt under, then brand new plain coloured shirts, then suit with tie not done up properly - at a memorial service ! Now the full squeaky clean look - very establishment

Jamba is very interested in jc's clothes and personal appearance. Looks like he has a guilty mancrush.

jambalaya - Member

As an aside on the day of the Syria debate Alex Salmond was in Edinburgh unveiling a portrait of himself. I assume he'll make the time to be in London for the vote so he can oppose.

JAMBAFACT.

Actually, Salmond skipped Cameron's statement to the Commons, so he could attend 3 events- a day session at the Scottish Parliament, the portrait unveiling, and then a Scottish Parliament reception and fundraiser for serving military personnel and veterans. But as he'd already seen the statement and discussed it at the Privy Council, and been briefed by the security services, he missed nothing. Angus Robertson responded to the statement for the SNP because that's his job, not Salmond's.

As you were.

Hey Silverpigeon - that coat is on display in the Pump House museum in manchester 🙂

It's a wool coat and the reason the murdoch press had a pop was because it was green not black/blue

FFS we are discussing his clothes
What are we trinny and suzannah?

Jesus Wept

If he forces everyone to vote against the bombing then that will be put down as a definite "policy". Free vote and he'll lose and show his weakness. Think he's been cornered.

JC needs to be mindful of how he is perceived. Like me you are old enough to remember the furore this appearance caused a few years ago - whether justified or not (apparently the Queen Mum complimented his choice of attire that day)

You can't go around worrying about whether the Murdoch papers are going to like what you do or not - because they'll happily make some stuff up about you if they've already decided not to like you! Corbyn is never going to be endorsed by the Sun no matter how many pairs of ironed chinos and short sleeved Ralph Lauren shirts he puts on.

Oh dear a climb down on the Syria vote, and the news just gets worse

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/datablog/2015/nov/30/labour-losing-touch-public-opinion-research-suggests ]Labour is losing voters[/url]

Interesting note about the writer of that article at the bottom:

Ian Warren is the director of Election Data, a consultancy specialising in election analysis, cartography and demographic segmentation. He has worked for all of the main parties in one form or another and [b]worked in Labour HQ during the 2015 general election campaign[/b].

dragon - Member

Oh dear a climb down on the Syria vote,

What climb down?

I guess this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34967024

Although not actually a climb down as decision hadn't been given, but percetion / reality?

From the Guardian:

1) Is it a climbdown?

Broadly, yes. Some of the spin seems to be presenting this as a Corbyn compromise, a two-and-a-half line whip, and not a conventional free vote, but if members of the shadow cabinet are being allowed to vote for air strikes without having to resign, then this is a free vote, whether Labour chooses to call it that or not. This represents a climbdown because Corbyn had been resisting pressure to allow one.

What are we trinny and suzannah?

@Northwind I was sourcing my info from the Guardian

As I said Corbyn had little choice other than a free vote as whipping and subsequent revolt/resignations would have been too costly to him - more so than the inevitable loss as predicted by Diana Abbot this morning. In fairness to Corbyn asking for a 2 day debate is smart as due to scheduling I imagine Cameron will ignore which then gives Cobyn some ammunition to attack the Tories.

I don't think he never wanted to whip, but did think that he could convince some of his position, and others of the mandate. Looks like that couldn't happen.

Incredibly difficult position for him.

INdeed he had very little choice as full whip = resignations and disaster and this way, even though he is doing what they want, the Tories and their press mates will probably be less brutal on his climb down. Personally think war issues should be left to MPs conscious anyway whatever the hue

@jamby the 2 day thing is to delay to let constituency Labour party have a pop at Mps as the membership is firmly 70 % ish anti war so canny on two fronts,

Someone quoted as saying Corbyn got a good kicking in the shadow cabinet meeting. With rats like this in shadow cabinet maybe Corbyn should have whipped them, let em resign or just cross the chamber FFS get it over with.

He can't he doesn't have the power, that is held elsewhere. If Tom Watson and Hillary Benn had walked then they would be able to pull enough moderate Labour MPs behind them to destroy Corbyn IMO.

ctk - Member
Someone quoted as saying Corbyn got a good kicking in the shadow cabinet meeting. With rats like this in shadow cabinet maybe Corbyn should have whipped them, let em resign or just cross the chamber FFS get it over with.

That's my view, there's not a member of the public I interact with that thinks wasting time bombing just for political effect is a good idea and since when have politicians made good war decisions, sorry can't go with that either, not with the high level corruption endemic in todays society.

dragon - Member
He can't he doesn't have the power, that is held elsewhere. If Tom Watson and Hillary Benn had walked then they would be able to pull enough moderate Labour MPs behind them to destroy Corbyn IMO.

I'm not savvy enough to know why or where that power is held, all I do know is that if Labour rid themselves of Corbyn in the ridiculous hope that somehow they'll be more electable as pink Tories they are seriously mistaken.

But what can they actually do? Spark another leadership election? Corbyn would get an even bigger mandate.

the Tories and their press mates will probably be less brutal on his climb down.

You mean Blairite MPs and their mates at the Guardian/Observer? The shocking thing in all of this is that the anti-Corbyn MPs and the left leaning press have done a much better job of undermining and discrediting Corbyn that the tories. Yes there have been a few misjudgments on the part of Corbyn et al, but Syria is not one of them, which makes it all the more shocking that these labour MPs are willing to use such a serious matter as a stick to beat him with. If shadow cabinet members really do have a heartfelt and burning belief that we should be indulging in aggressive and tokenistic bombing campaigns, which I seriously doubt, then they should have done the honourable thing and resigned quietly, as Robin Cook did. But no, as with all spoilt children, they have to make as much noise as possible and scream 'it's not fair!'.

But what can they actually do? Spark another leadership election? Corbyn would get an even bigger mandate.

Spark another leadership election? Corbyn would get an even bigger mandate.

If they managed to trigger another leadership election they would make damn sure that Corbyn wasn't on the ballot paper by not nominating him and thereby making his reelection impossible.

Don't underestimate Labour's hard right contempt for democracy.

If they managed to trigger another leadership election they would make damn sure that Corbyn wasn't on the ballot paper by not nominating him and thereby making his reelection impossible.

This is true. But it's a nuclear option which would spark mass membership walkouts, union and constituency party disaffiliations and all manner of other chaos. I think in this case there'd be a good chance that the party would implode and I don't think there'd be much left of it after. I also have no doubt that some labour MPs would prefer this to Corbyn remaining in charge.

So he's kept his job, and the price will be paid by the civilians in the cross hairs. Politicians, love 'em.

So, while politicians are doing what they do best, religious idiots are killing each other and anyone else they can.

The news papers use all of it to sell more papers and more advertising.

Everyone else gets lost with it as there is no simple solution.

Meanwhile, we can bomb some people one side of a line in the sand, but not the other side ?

If this was a movie plot we would all complain it was unrealistic.

By the time the report comes out next year on Iraq we will be demanding one on this shambles.

Crikey 3866 comments ...

Must be Jesus Christ(not JC)?

😆

But it's a nuclear option which would spark mass membership walkouts, union and constituency party disaffiliations and all manner of other chaos.

I think there are probably many right-wing Labour MPs who would be very happy with a small compliant membership and no links with the trade unions - I'm sure they would much rather receive donations from big business.

And the right-wing within the Labour Party were perfectly prepared to cause 'all manner of chaos' in the 1980s.

I think you might be overestimating their integrity and loyalty to the party - look at how much damage they are doing to Labour right now.

So he's kept his job, and the price will be paid by the civilians in the cross hairs. Politicians, love 'em.

I know this will be a novel idea for you, but maybe you should hold the current government responsible for government policies currently being implemented.

I think the vast majority of the PLP would like to see the party survive in roughly its current form. They can't do without the Unions as they have insufficient other sources of funding. If the result in Oldham is poor (narrow win or forbid a loss to UKIP) I think the rank and file members will start to understand Corbyn cannot win a GE

JY my gut feel is Caneron will push on with a vote on Wednesday. He will pitch that as keadership / decesive action whilst indicating hed hold a longer debate if it came to ground troops, here we are talking about exyending airstries a ross a border which doesn't really exist

So he's kept his job, and the price will be paid by the civilians in the cross hairs. Politicians, love 'em.

I know this will be a novel idea for you, but maybe you should hold the current government responsible for government policies currently being implemented.

...as far as I know, they are also Politicians.

...as far as I know, they are also Politicians

Of course, but politicians, as a class, are not responsible for the consequences of bombing Syria. That is for the individuals who vote for that bombing and the leaders who propose it. JC is not part of either of those groups so attempting to smear him by association is pure dishonesty.

I think you might be overestimating their integrity and loyalty to the party - look at how much damage they are doing to Labour right now.

Well any naivety I might have had, which is not much, has just been well and truly destroyed by reading this morning about some anti-Corbyn MP who has leaked a secret recording of a pro-Corbyn MP from last night's PLP meeting. There really are no depths to which they will not sink is there?

Unlike that Jeremy Corbyn!!

[img] [/img]

Where have you read that dazh?

Where have you read that dazh?

Actually I should correct myself there but I can't edit it now. There was something on the guardian's live feed this morning but it would appear it was a recording of someone speaking after the meeting not during it, so not quite as bad as I made out.

The point still stands though, that the behaviour of many anti-Corbyn MPs has been beyond the pale, and in direct conflict with the interests of the party. Add to that the willing collusion of supposedly left-leaning media outlets such as the guardian who also seem more interested in damaging Corbyn than the tories and what we have is the perfect storm. It was bad enough when they were imitating the tories, now they're doing their job for them. And yet they have the cheek to blame Corbyn, like their actions are merely incidental.

Yep, that's all I could find too. This quote from Clive Lewis:

If there are members of the PLP that want to bomb in Syria and vote with the Tories, on their heads be it. They have made that decision. I respect that decision, in the sense that they have come to the conclusion they have. But ultimately if the war in Syria extends, if there’s a conflagration, there are more terrorist atrocities, if the war extends with no end, then obviously we will be looking at who voted for this, and when the blame’s apportioned, it’s their fault.

he guardian who also seem more interested in damaging Corbyn than the tories

I am so mad at this I can't describe, incandescent, that these idiots are flying in the face of public opinion.

There needs to be a list of all and any labour MP's that vote for this and they should face deselection, I can't imagine the voters in their constituencies are in favour of bombing any of Syria or Iraq, it is such a cowardly political sop.

And what is with the Grauniad? Where has this anti Corbyn hatred come from, is it Dianne Abbot related I wonder, she hasn't helped herself over the years.

It's worth watching yesterday's Daily Politics if you haven't already for a good illustration of what's going on.

The middle section with Dan Hodges frothing at the mouth, Rachel Shabi rising above it and Jo Coburn choosing sensationalism and controversy over actually letting people debate the issues.

The guardian who also seem more interested in damaging Corbyn than the tories

They do absolutely hate him on there for some reason

Maybe its a local matter? He is the MP for where they all have their £3 million London townhouses. When they're not at their Tuscan holiday homes.

Maybe its about bin collections?

I am so mad at this I can't describe, incandescent, that these idiots are flying in the face of public opinion.

There needs to be a list of all and any labour MP's that vote for this and they should face deselection, I can't imagine the voters in their constituencies are in favour of bombing any of Syria or Iraq, it is such a cowardly political sop.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/25/strong-and-continued-support-raf-air-strikes-syria/

The guardian who also seem more interested in damaging Corbyn than the tories

They do absolutely hate him on there for some reason

Could it be something to do with [url= http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Controlled+opposition ]controlled opposition[/url]?

There seems to be a collective amnesia that we are already bombing Deash in Iraq on behalf of the Iraqi government,

If there are members of the PLP that want to bomb in Syria and vote with the Tories, on their heads be it. They have made that decision. I respect that decision, in the sense that they have come to the conclusion they have. But ultimately if the war in Syria extends, if there’s a conflagration, there are more terrorist atrocities, if the war extends with no end, then obviously we will be looking at who voted for this, and when the blame’s apportioned, it’s their fault

The biggest problem I see for Corbyn is that on the international stage he is a non-entity and doesn't seem to have any real momentum or idea's that will either negate the argument for bombing or mean that there is a "post bombing" plan for Syria

I also don't think the political polarisation of the debate is helping anyone, it's not a left/ right issue and there are good arguments just to step up what we are doing now in support of the French, Russians, Iranians, Turks etc etc. and drive the diplomacy to come up with a viable plan for the defeat of Deash and the creation of a peaceful future for the region. There are probably good arguments to bomb parts of Syria occupied by Deash as well but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of planes with bombs at the moment.

There seems to be a collective amnesia that we are already bombing Deash in Iraq on behalf of the Iraqi government

It will be interesting to see which MP's vote for and against... do we think the Labour 'For' voters will be representing the people who voted for them?

this is only an issue of where we bomb them, not if.

it's only a matter of time before JC gets pinned down on the current bombing campaign and whether he is "for" or "against"

he needs to avoid that question before the by-election on Thursday or there could be a doubling of UKIP MP's

[quote=bluehelmet said]I am so mad at this I can't describe, incandescent, that these idiots are flying in the face of public opinion.

Radio4 reporting "public opinion" 2 to 1 for Syrian strikes.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/25/strong-and-continued-support-raf-air-strikes-syria/

*whisper* Tom Watson *whisper*

Maybe its a local matter? He is the MP for where they all have their £3 million London townhouses.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-mps-allowed-to-vote-with-consciences-they-abandoned-long-ago-20151201104362 ]summed up nicely by the Mash[/url]

And konabunny - you took your bloody time. You southerners are no fun any more 😀

We all know that Guardian journalists don't live in £3 million pound Islington townhouses! Thats just sooooooo New Labour. They rent them out, and have now bought entire streets in Brixton. Its just so edgy walking to get hummous from the new organic, fair-trade workers co-operative*

* The word 'workers' is used figuratively in this instance, not in reference to those who need to work to sustain a lifestyle of overpriced vegan restaurants and spending long weekends in Madrid researching their novel, but to denote people who, while independently wealthy, 'work' by writing a vaguely left leaning column once a week, when not in Tuscany

Hi....

[img] [/img]

Wow Binners, it appears that you have finally come to the conclusion that the Labour party is led by the bourgeoisie - and only ninety five years after Lenin said it, congratulations!

Lenin lived in Islington (Percy Circus).

Did he meet Corbyn?

Oi leave Monbiot alone, he's one of the good guys! Toynbee, Freedland, White et al you can have, but not Mombiot. He may be uber-middle class, but he's no establishment apologist.

[i] mt - Member

Did he meet Corbyn? [/i]

I think Lenin met Corbyn's mother, once.....

Corbyn and Lenin fell out over whether there should be a horoscope in [i]Iskra[/i]

This thread appears to have taken a turn for the better without me, I'm not jumping to any hasty conclusions though.

Marx liked North London so much he stayed there permanently. Much of central London is Labour due to high amounts of social/council housing and a significant amount of the private property lived in by foreigners who cannot vote

JY I think the Guardian "hates" Corbyn as they want to see the Labour Party have a chance of winning an election and form a Government

I think the Guardian "hates" Corbyn as they want to see the Labour Party have a chance of winning an election and form a Government

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/may/04/general-election-newspaper-support

Junkyard - lazarus

The guardian who also seem more interested in damaging Corbyn than the tories

They do absolutely hate him on there for some reason

I disagree. I would expect the Guardian to hate Corbyn for much the same reasons that I hate the Guardian's bourgeois pontificating claptrap editorials/comment, however although I very rarely ever read the their editorials/comment the occasional cursory glance has surprised me.

In fact I was stunned by the Guardian's leader the day after John McDonnell's Conference speech - it was surprisingly sympathetic. And today's leader appears from the headline (I didn't read it) to argue the case against air strikes in Syria, which puts it closer to Corbyn than some Labour MPs.

@JY - maybe they just wanted to see [b]anyone[/b] left of centre in power, and back the people most likely to achieve that?

would you prefer they backed the (no chance of winning) Greens or SWP, just to enhance their lefty credentials?

(edit to answer Ernie's question below)

You talking to me ninfan?

allthepies - Member
bluehelmet said » I am so mad at this I can't describe, incandescent, that these idiots are flying in the face of public opinion.
Radio4 reporting "public opinion" 2 to 1 for Syrian strikes.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/11/25/strong-and-continued-support-raf-air-strikes-syria/
br />

Sorry conspiracy theories are my thing, here ask youselves this if you're wondering who might be behind attempts to discredit our jeremy, he has been asking questions in the house regarding the supply of kit to build un manned drones to Israel, if ever there was an outfit with the black arts of PR covered, Israel is it.

Lenin lived in Islington (Percy Circus).

And Hitler lived in Liverpool.

And Hitler lived in Liverpool.

Which explains why the Nazis only made a short half-arsed attempt to invade England?

They bombed our chippy etc

[i] ernie_lynch - Member
And Hitler lived in Liverpool.[/i]

Still does, according to some. Apparently he also kept a subterranean bachelor pad in Berlin.

Now, more than ever, this thread needs JHJ's pictorial input.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Damn I'm good to you guys

Too obtuse for me jhj

Corbyn has zero chance of winning a GE, the PLP know this as they have experience of getting elected. Pretty much the entire Labour hierarchy pointed this out during the campaign.

The party faithful plus all those £3 voters who are not the faithful need to understand that their standard bearer is going to fail to deliver on his signature issue. His replacement as chairman of Stop the War has been highly critical of him today too.

the PLP know this as they have experience of getting elected.

Yeah that worked a treat the last two times! 😀

Honestly, are you really suggesting that the mid-90s new labour strategy for winning elections is still valid? The main experience the PLP have is of furthering their own political careers by adjusting their 'beliefs' to whatever they think will gain them most advantage. I have no doubt most of them are only in the labour party as at the beginning of their careers they judged labour as the best bet for them to get into parliament. Had the tables been turned they'd almost certainly now be in the tory party.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/02/labour-mps-deselection-threats-syria-vote-stella-creasy-diana-johnson

“The level of abuse over the last four months is on a totally, totally different scale from anything ever before. It is directly linked to people purporting to support Jeremy,”

Certainly matches my experience.

Honestly, are you really suggesting that the mid-90s new labour strategy for winning elections is still valid?

Yeah. Still valid.

Are you saying Corbyn's policies appeal to a minority of extreme nutters?

Is there a poll for this?

it's only a matter of time before JC gets pinned down on the current bombing campaign and whether he is "for" or "against"

@molgrips as many of us have said the centre ground wins UK elections and Corbyn is way way off to the left of the centre ground. As such his policies do not appeal to the majority.

“The level of abuse over the last four months is on a totally, totally different scale from anything ever before. It is directly linked to people purporting to support Jeremy,”

Who was asking if STW was representative of the wider society? 😉

For proof of "ends justify the means" as a political strategy (ie, get into power at whatever cost)one only needs to look North

Are you saying Corbyn's policies appeal to a minority of extreme nutters?

Nutters on the extremes, rather than extreme nutters. The few percent of the population who you might as well leave unrepresented (leave them to the Greens) as their aren't enough of them to vote you in.

Some great quotes from the general public on COrbyn from the Guardian article on the Oldham election:

[b]Corbyn seemed to be saying ‘let bygones be bygones. Let’s hide under a rock’ or something. I think he’s a pussy.”[/b]

[b]“Just another liar”[/b]

[b]“He’s an idiot,” “It’s all the things he comes out with. He needs to get his act together.”[/b]

and for some balance:

[b]“I like him,” she says. “I think they have to go in that direction – more peaceful.”[/b]

Some great quotes from the general public on COrbyn from the Guardian article on the Oldham election:

Like the guardian is an objective source for opinions on Corbyn! You might as well quote the daily mail.

policies that appeal to a tiny minority of nutters

Rail renationalisation - most are in favour
Reform of the energy companies - most in favour
Borrowing to invest in public infrastructure - most in favour
Abolishing tax loopholes for the rich and corporations - most in favour
Avoiding destructive wars - most in favour

Total loony left stuff all that. 🙄

Most in favour