Forum menu
These “leftist despots” were democratically elected or led popular revolution. I don’t remember the House of Saud standing for election at any point?
So was Hitler.
Am I right in assuming that you think massive human rights violations are okay as long as it's done by despots imposed via democratic elections or *cough*popular*cough* revolution - and as long as they're good little socialists?
Corbyn was a **** wit and it's for the best that he's gone.
A discussion on the polarization of the party
https://unherd.com/2020/10/is-corbyn-really-an-anti-semite/
Corbyns reaction is making this more of an issue than it should ever have been
But starmer now gets to distance himself from corbyn and dinosaurs like Mccluskey get flushed away too
The daft thing is, just as the Tories are screwing the pooch themselves
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1322126032028291072?s=19
big and daft's link pretty much sums up how I feel ^^^
People were saying that the left was obsessed with Israel and what about Saudi. I pointed out that he talked about Saudi in his....etc
Am I right in assuming that you think massive human rights violations are okay as long as it’s done by despots imposed via democratic elections or *cough*popular*cough* revolution – and as long as they’re good little socialists?
Where has anyone said this? Why make stuff up?
Jeremy Corbyn should not be the news this week. He made sure that he is. His choice. His doing.
I would argue it's the guy that kicked him out of the party for saying something fairly uncontroversial that's the one who made sure Corbyn was the news.
Which guy is that then? David Evans?
This is simple stuff. Accept the report, apologise, point out that changes had been made since the events of the report to improve things while he was leader, offer support to those who should now make further improvements based on the report’s findings, point out that everyone in the Party should now focus on the mess the current government are making. Oh, and don’t bother bringing up the strawman of a poll that shows that the public have no real idea what they’re talking about… the rarely do when polled.
From big n daft's link
Yet, with yesterday’s decision by the general secretary, David Evans, to suspend Corbyn, that prospect seems inevitable.
One cannot help but conclude that Evans has boxed in Sir Keir in a way that raises the stakes dramatically. Any decision to reinstate Corbyn would be perceived as weakness and an affront to Jews, while his expulsion risks a veritable bloodletting. The gauntlet has been well and truly thrown down.
The whole thing is worth a read, it's very balanced.
Where has anyone said this? Why make stuff up?
They haven't but they do seem to think that Corbyn being anti-israel is because he's a pro human rights saint as opposed to being an anti-Semite. He doesn't have a good track record of the former, given his support for left wing lunatics. So that makes him at best either the type of cynical tinpot socialist that supports the enemies of his enemies or an anti-Semite at worst.
He doesn’t have a good track record of the former
The facts if you are interested: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/votes
Almost always voted for laws to promote equality and human rights
big and daft’s link pretty much sums up how I feel
Absolutely superb piece. Why can't he lead the party?
Kelvin nails it
This is simple stuff. Accept the report, apologise, point out that changes had been made since the events of the report to improve things while he was leader, offer support to those who should now make further improvements based on the report’s findings, point out that everyone in the Party should now focus on the mess the current government are making.
Yet again, a naive(?) comment by Corbyn has completely undone the party of opposition at a time when they should have the Tories feet in the coals over their handling of the pandemic.
And more importantly, all those waivering voters are thinking "look at them, they are no better than the Tories"
Corbyn is like the bloke in a group of friends who go out for dinner from time to time. Despite the fact that all the other members are fine with splitting the bill evenly.....
Oh no - because he is a man of principle and has to take every possible opportunity to demonstrate how principled he is, they are left sitting there while he goes through the bill penny by penny. It reaches a head one day when he insists that he should pay his half of a shared pudding to the penny. Problem is, the price on the bill is an odd number of pence. The group can now never leave the table.
He needs to shut up. Acknowledge he was 'played' (god knows he gifted his enemies the opportunity) and realise that a united and competent opposition is needed with what De Pfeffel, Cumstains (couldn't resist) and rubber-faced zealot Gove have got in store for the ordinary people in 2021 and beyond.
It's a bit pointless all this digging up of why Corbyn as an awful narcissist whose voting history was only for virtue signalling. In times of a crisis what bliss to have the victims preoccupied with squabbling amongst themselves over identity politics blaming a principled if naive member of the left. All this was well planned in advance, filmed and broadcast in 2017 and discussed above. Many more MPs (76?) have been identified for a roughing over, this hasn't nearly ended yet.
By hobbling the potential parliamentary opposition, there will be even less LP resistance to the Tories and any organised anger will take place in the workplace or on the streets and sorted by the police and the press. I sincerely hope people don't hold their breath waiting for Sir and Dame to ride to their rescue.
If the LP loses members and union funds that's a result. If some sort of new socialist party is created that will split the vote and become the new Hattonists/Miltant whipping boy then that's a result. Expulsions could also mean some new opportunities for the right people to get a seat and get claiming. Disaster capitalism is not just about power grabs in the economy, it happens in politics too but parliament is only part of the picture. Like many I vote Labour by default but by the next election I expect everything to be completely unrecognisable.
Yet again, a naive(?) comment by Corbyn has completely undone the party of opposition at a time when they should have the Tories feet in the coals over their handling of the pandemic.
It wasn't naive
He knew the immediate consequences
He knows that he will be martyred for the left wing cause.
He doesn't care about the impact, he still believes that a truly left wing labour party is the only route to a pure victory.
He would happily damage the electoral chances of his successor because he feels that his detractors in the party did that to him.
Stand back everyone! ‘The Left’ is flexing its muscles.
Landsman is threatening to leave the party* and Richard Burgon held an ‘online rally’ last night. Whatever that is. It was unclear whether further plans were discussed for the Tony Benn Memorial University.
Meanwhile, Len has clearly been told to STFU and is backpedaling, and all the Corbynite MPs threatening to quit, haven’t. What a surprise!
In other news, Labour are now 5 points clear of the Tories in the polls, compared to the 26 point deficit that was grandads parting gift to us all only 6 months ago.
* Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out, will you?
The sooner all the Corbinyte idiots go the sooner we will have an electable opposition and get Johnson out.
Whatever else you say about Corbyn he was unfit to lead, he couldn't handle the press which like it or not is a key job requirement. All the whining about right wing bias was irrelevant, you deal with the press you get and win them to your side, moaning about them never achieves this.
Let the idiots go off and form a splinter party, it will be as irrelevant as 1970s politics and leave them Labour party to the grown ups.
I know there are those who feel that anti semitism was used as a stick to bludgeon Corbyn to death. They might also rightly point out that AS exists across the political spectrum and society in general.
The issue of AS has been sublimated in the UK, we could always point to how it was much more of a problem in Europe, though we should remember that the least racist is still racist. And then there's Hitler, we defeated Hitler so therefore we saved the Jews type of thing.
Anti semitism wasn't seen as much of an issue in the UK, it was there if you looked for it, graveyards were a good clue, if you cycled past a graveyard (as I did in North Manchester) and the headstones were either toppled or smashed to pieces you knew it was a Jewish graveyard from the first glance, you didn't have to read the inscriptions.
A problem undiscussed will find an outlet sooner or later, an issue or figure around which to coalesce. The issue of anti semitism needed a poster boy and Corbyn stepped up to fill the role. Gullible, yes but also complicit given his history.
As much as Zionism is a product of anti semitism, anti semitism can also be a by product of anti Zionism. The left has a problem with de coupling the two things, or is at least prepared to turn a blind eye to some of the nastier undercurrents in order to flag their pro Palestine credentials.
I support the idea of a Palestinian homeland, I just feel that the posturing on the left with regards the issue does more harm than good, only succeeding in hardening perspectives. Making Europe, the UK or more specifically the Labour party a more hostile place for Jews is hardly going to bring about a solution to the Israel /Palestine question, it more accurately points to why Jewish people felt the need for a safe homeland in the first place.
leave them Labour party to the grown ups.
And by definition nothing will change. At the end of the next labour govt we'll still have an unsustainable economy which consumes more than the earth can provide. Carbon emissions will still be rising, the poor will still be poor, the rich will be as rich as they are now, and the rest of us will still be slogging away at pointless jobs with ever decreasing real wages and longer hours to make up the shortfall, while we watch our kids get increasingly stressed and depressed about their futures. It's ok though, because proper grownups who understand what they're not allowed to do are in charge. My 16 year old daughter has a better understanding of how the world works than these so-called grown ups.
In other news, Labour are now 5 points clear of the Tories in the polls, compared to the 26 point deficit that was grandads parting gift to us all only 6 months ago.
I'm sure that's totally down to Corbyn's departure, and nothing to do with the Tories literally voting not to feed hingry kids.
pondo,
Could it not be both?
As much as Zionism is a product of anti semitism, anti semitism can also be a by product of anti Zionism.
How very insightful.
I support the idea of a Palestinian homeland, I just feel that the posturing on the left with regards the issue does more harm than good
Posturing? FFS. The people on the left and others are the only outlet in the western world for information about the crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli state. Politicians, the media, and as a result the population at large are wilfully ignorant about it. They've covered their eyes and put their fingers in their ears and are shouting 'la la la I can't hear you'. So yeah, they should carry on 'posturing', because what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing more than organised state terror and murder, and people need to know about it, whether they like it or not.
I’m sure that’s totally down to Corbyn’s departure, and nothing to do with the Tories literally voting not to feed hingry kids.
Since Corbyn's departure (after delivering the worst labour election result in 85 years, lest we forget), the polls have shifted over 30 points in favour of the labour party
A man in possession of even a modicum of humility or intelligence might think on that stat when considering their present conduct and if they're in any position to be gobbing off
So yeah, they should carry on ‘posturing’, because what goes on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing more than organised state terror and murder, and people need to know about it, whether they like it or not.
And while the present Israeli regime enjoys the full support of the American government, what Tower Hamlets friends of Palestine think isn't going to make a right lot of difference. And hounding Jewish MPs out of the Labour Party most certainly isn't
It’s ok though, because proper grownups who understand what they’re not allowed to do are in charge.
What dazh said. Starmer's platform of 'we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories' is just going to lead us nowhere. JC wasn't the right man but radical solutions are needed, and soon, or we are all totally ****ed.
@binners during that period we have also had a deadly pandemic AND the Brexit they were elected to sort out handled spectacularly badly - the fact that Labour are now creeping marginally ahead is really not something to be crowing about.
hounding Jewish MPs out of the Labour Party most certainly isn’t
Which precisely no one is advocating. Insightful.
It seems age, as a form of social stratification, 6th formers and grown-ups, have to be employed when you have no arguments or evidence. Most old people have had even more than the rest of us of being confused and dazed by the media, the workplace, events and they don't read much. These people must seek political advice and analysis from their elderly rellies. Vote grown up, vote Trump.
I see no one has attempted to explain why it's ok to have a third of the shadow cabinet in an avowedly pro-Israeli lobby group. Is this another grown-up thing?
More grown up stuff ^^^^
Starmer’s platform of ‘we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories’ is just going to lead us nowhere. JC wasn’t the right man but radical solutions are needed, and soon, or we are all totally ****
That is about where I am. I think it we all want a better party in power. Some are focused on the "better party" bit. others on the "in power" bit.
the fact that Labour are now creeping marginally ahead is really not something to be crowing about.
Who's crowing?
I'm merely pointing out that under the stewardship of Magic Grandad, we lost 2 elections, one of which by an absolutely thumping majority. As it stands at the moment, if there were an election tomorrow we'd very probably have a labour government.
Maybe certain individuals should take a moment to reflect on that before embarking on their latest ego trip?
One good poll result in the midst of a crisis and suddenly we are guaranteed a Labour government. Yay.
I've no doubt Corbyn harmed electoral results with some people but the main issue AFAICS was Brexit. What would Starmer's magical solution have been that got red wall voters, swing voters, and the 'metropolitan liberal elite' you apparently hate so much on board?
'Get Brexit done, but not as badly'? Remind me who was in charge of Labour's Brexit policy at the last election?
BTW 'metropolitan liberal elite' is considered a coded AS dog-whistle by some people. Funny eh
but the main issue AFAICS was Brexit.
Humour me for a moment and remind me where our hero stood on this
Dazh,
I agree that the injustices inflicted on the Palestinians need to be pointed out and the fact that they need to be addressed is obvious.
I used the word posturing deliberately. I work in the Arts and music sectors, ask anyone and support for the Palestinian cause is near ubiquitous, as is the ignorance with regards the history of the Middle East. Showing solidarity with the cause whilst providing no solutions and having no skin in the game can easily be seen as virtue signalling and, as I said before, do more harm than good, both for the cause in whose name they are fighting and in relation to feeding into anti semitism in general.
Humour me for a moment and remind me where our hero stood on this
If he'd been anti Brexit you'd have been whining on about how he'd ignored labour voters 'in the real world' who wanted Brexit.
Again, what should he have done? Easy to criticise but not so easy to actually say anything useful/constructive is it.
What was Keir Starmer doing at the time? I found JCs leadership over Brexit hopeless but actually his ambivalent position reflected both sides of the division in the labour party. It's funny how he's apparently both a Marxist despot and too indecisive.
Starmer’s platform of ‘we are a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories’ is just going to lead us nowhere.
Well that's tough comrade as the country isn't ready for the glorious revolution, maybe another 10 years of Johnson might do it.
Even if a radical Labour party got elected (history shows that won't happen) things will get a lot worse during the great leap forward before we get to utopia. Our election system runs every 5 years, complete overhaul of of system will take a lot longer than that.
Believe it or not the country would like a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories. What we don't want is yet more internal party politics an infighting for the sake of scoring policy points.
If he’d been anti Brexit you’d have been whining on about how he’d ignored labour voters ‘in the real world’ who wanted Brexit.
Again, what should he have done?
What he should have done is put aside his 1970's Lexiteer personal prejudices and campaign for remain, to reflect the overwhelming view of the Labour membership
Instead, he took a 2 month sabbatical on his allotment, then reappeared on the morning of the result to go full Farage
Ok so he should have just totally ignored the approx one third of labour voters who voted leave, more concentrated in traditional labour heartlands in the north, and go with the 'metropolitan liberal elite'
you claim to despise, who all wanted remain. Tell the racist northerners that they were wrong.
You really are the authentic voice of northern working class labour voters aren't you binners.
I desperately wanted him to campaign for Remain too but I can also see that it wasn't as simple as you are making out,and that my opinion isn't the only one that matters.
Ok so he should have just totally ignored the approx one third of labour voters who voted leave
As opposed to ignoring the two thirds who voted remain, the 90%+ of labour MP's who wanted to remain, and the 80%+ of labour members who wanted to remain?
I'd say so, yes.
You really are the authentic voice of northern working-class labour voters aren’t you binners.
I don't think I've ever claimed to be that. I'm presently drinking a latte, I've got today's Guardian sat in front of me, then I'm drawing some pictures, which is what I do for a living. I'm hardly about to do a shift darn't pit, am I?
He didn't though did he, he just equivocated. I think it was a mistake and showed poor leadership but there would have been an absolute shitstorm of newspaper headlines about how he was betraying the north/'traditional labour voters' and how out of touch he was, etc etc if he'd campaigned properly for remain. He'd have been characterised as being pro Romanian child snatchers and against bendy bananas.
He couldn't win.
Sorry grum,
I remember Corbyn descending the steps of a campaign bus, holding a few scraps of A4 paper in his hand and declaring that he's had a look at options and thought we might be a bit better off if we stayed but wasn't really too sure.
That was his sum contribution to the Brexit debate, it made Nevile Chamberlain's 'peace in our time' moment look like a victory speech.
If I had had my doubts about him before, that moment confirmed to me how he was completely incapable of leadership.
He couldn’t win?
He never even bloody tried! He went AWOL for 2 months instead!
So much for being a man of integrity? He always wanted Brexit. He doesn't give a toss what anyone else thinks. The only views Jeremy Corbyn has ever been interested in representing are Jeremy ****ing Corbyn's.
So he simply disappeared for a couple of months and in doing so, fully facilitated it, leaving us in the present shitshow. The only time he was honest was when he made his rant about triggering article 50 immediately, the morning of the result
He's a charlatan and a fraud!
Well that’s tough comrade as the country isn’t ready for the glorious revolution
And this just about sums up the pessimism and fatalism of the centrist position. No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems where the old solutions have demonstrably failed. We keep repeating the same mistakes, and ignore the existential problems staring us in the face. Why? Because the 'grown ups' are in charge, and they do very well out of this shitshow so have no reason to change it. Their problems are different to everyone elses.
So we can continue doing what we're told like obedient little children who know our place, or we can try to change it, and in the process hold on to a tiny amount of hope and optimism that one day we won't have to worry about things like climate change, pandemics, economic collapse, war or whatever else, and can be confident that our kids will be be happier and bettor off than we were. No doubt I'll be called a hopeless fantasist, well rather that than accept that global destruction and economic/societal collapse are inevitable, because that's a one way ticket to some very dark places.
Ever wondered why we have so many discussions on here about suicide and depression?
I desperately wanted him to campaign for Remain too but I can also see that it wasn’t as simple as you are making out,and that my opinion isn’t the only one that matters.
sorry Grum, but he completely dithered on the issue as he is wont to do.
It was a referendum with a binary choice, he needed to clearly come down on one side and he didn’t. Tbh that was due to him being a clear euroskeptic who actually wanted us out. Where was the courage of his convictions then?
I was supportive of him up until then.
It was a referendum with a binary choice, he needed to clearly come down on one side and he didn’t.
Anyone who thinks labour could have solved the brexit conundrum by taking a binary position is a fantasist. The labour party, like the country, was diametrically split on the issue. There was no solution, and whatever they did would have lost them seats somewhere. Stop with the revisionist history to suit your position, it's makes you look pretty stupid.
Um... I said it was poor leadership and that he equivocated so I'm not sure why everyone is telling me I'm wrong whilst agreeing with me.
I'm not even claiming that Corbyn's socialism was the best solution at all, but as dazh says there are so many huge issues at stake that nitpicking over coronavirus response while offering nothing different isn't going to cut it.
In the short-medium term future we are going to see seismic shifts from climate change, automation, AI/algorithms, destruction of ecosystems, loss of soil fertility, food security, future pandemics, antibiotic resistance etc etc.
And here we are arguing about when PPE got ordered or whatever it is this week and being terribly impressed by how much cleverer KS is than a buffoon.
The model we have of the need for constant economic growth is at the heart of so many of our problems but we just blithely accept it because, well....
He couldn’t win.
We'll never know, will we, as he ****ed off and didn't get involved as he wanted out against the most of the rest of the party, and rather than get stuck in, he abdicated his responsibility.
Anyone who thinks labour could have solved the brexit conundrum by taking a binary position is a fantasist.
No one is saying the party should have campaigned one way or the other. We are saying he should have made his position clear. Even ****ing Cameron managed to do that.
What we are saying here is that we can't cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots. We really do get the politicians we deserve.
What we are saying here is that we can’t cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots.
The risk of offering a nuanced message is that you're up again a bunch of liars whose message is plain, direct and emotionally weighted.
That's the problem for not just the likes of Corbyn, but any 'I can see both sides of this' politician. Be reasonable by all means, but expect to get steamrolled by someone who doesn't share your intellectual approach or ethical values, or has jettisoned them because they would rather win. A sad state of affairs, but that is where we are. The proportion of the electorate who respond to nuanced discussion is far too low.
An even better one. Cue insults about being a utopian dreamer..
Who are the growups? Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what's obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?
An even better one. Cue insults about being a utopian dreamer..
Who are the growups? Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what’s obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?
There is nothing wrong with the premise that something has to change. What the left need to realise is that they need to take the voters on a journey. Saying that everything is going to change immediately after being elected is the fastest way of not being elected. That's why the last election was such a disaster, radical manifesto with daily announcements on extra spending or commitments, it didn't add up, people didn't believe it could be done, you lose by 80 seats
What we are saying here is that we can’t cope with nuance or balance and we need over-simplified binary choices because we are idiots. We really do get the politicians we deserve.
Not at all, but the referendum ‘was’ a binary choice. Corbyn could possibly have shown leadership and pushed for remain whilst arguing for a looser relationship, or he could have come down in favour of leave and explained his position that way. He could have been more bipartisan in his politics and reached out to moderate conservatives, in fact there a a myriad of other choices that were better than going into hiding for two months.
What surprises me the most is why if he caused that much trouble the party didnt vote him out years ago.
No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems
Yes, that is exactly how the majority of people feel. They would not see a revolution as a good thing and it may actually end up worse afterwards - see history for results of revolutions...
Believe it or not the country would like a more competent and less nasty version of the Tories. What we don’t want is yet more internal party politics an infighting for the sake of scoring policy points.
Believe it or not the country would like the Tory party as is - they’ve only just been voted in!
We are sleepwalking into revolution whether we like it or not. Some kind of strategy and planning might make it much easier on people when it really starts to bite.
What surprises me the most is why if he caused that much trouble the party didnt vote him out years ago.
Because at the time he was a harmless backbencher who had friends you wouldn't invite round but who could keep a section of the left wing base happy. Why get rid of him when you could ignore the constant votes against whip and keep the peace and claim to have a broad church of the left.
Those who blindly carry on as if nothing is wrong and refuse to recognise what’s obvious, or those who use their common sense to come to the very simple conclusion that something has to change?
Or those who fail to realise that change does not happen overnight: Demanding radical change has to happen NOW means you don't get elected & you instead get a government that takes you even further away from where you want to be.
Yes, you are a fantasist if you believe that a party which stands for the immediate overthrow of the existing norms of society will ever succeed in an election, especially in the UK which has always managed to transform society in a non-revolutionary manner(see history). As someone said above. You have to take the public with you.
pondo,
Could it not be both?
I think it is, completely, despite what our resident propagandist shrieks.
We are sleepwalking into revolution whether we like it or not.
You lot have been saying that since the Russian Revolution.
And we're no closer to it happening in this country than we were then. In fact, it's infinitely less likely than it was then
How about re-engaging with reality and the 99.9% of the UK population who have zero interest in any form of revolution, and would just like some reasonably competent people in charge who aren't a gang of utter ****s!
I'm not talking about a socialist revolution FFS. I'm talking about all the stuff mentioned above regarding climate change, automation etc that's already affecting us right now.
KS' crap Tony Blair tribute act without the charisma is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
It's funny the main person hung up on 70s socialism seems to be you binners, you see it everywhere apparently.
And anyway, what makes you think that any form of revolution would hand power to the left to deliver a socialist utopia
Surely the last 5 years have shown us that any revolution in Brexit Britain (and you could argue that Brexit itself is a revolution of sorts) would be far more liKey to deliver something more akin to fascism than socialism?
I don't, which is why I never suggested such a thing.
No one wants revolution, we only want new solutions to old problems
You're quite right, that sounds terrible.
Demanding radical change has to happen NOW means you don’t get elected & you instead get a government that takes you even further away from where you want to be.
But where does chasing a Tory party moving further and further to the right get us? The only meaningful opposition is still massively pro-capitalism, hell even Corbyn was.
It's a peculiar form of doublethink when you are accused of being a lunatic for thinking we should pay attention to the most serious issues facing us, rather than just fiddling around the edges and carrying on pretending everything is ok.
Its not about chasing the Tory party, it's about chasing the public, gauging their mood and finding ways to sell or implement policies without scaring the horses.
Revolutions will always lead to uncertainty. Those who start them are rarely there when they end, the situation nearly always being exploited by bad faith actors. The public knows this so is wary of those with utopian visions.
You can't teleport yourself into a utopian future, progress is not made that way, it is made piecemeal, through small steps and adjustments.
If you're trying to sell an idea of the future that hinges on everything in the present being wrong then you are presenting yourself as a messiah. This is as true for Trump as it is for Corbyn, it's just that Corbyn isn't as good a salesman as Trump.
IME most people in this country hate each other and begrudge anyone that's not like them a living, unless it's viewed as noble enough! Most things are done via stitch-ups and spite, which is encouraged in the survival of the fittest workplace, where you are constantly reminded how grateful you should be and how lucky you are.
People continually vote for liars, as long as it's broadly (in the loosest sense) in-line with their ideology and stoked rage du jour, then complain about them being liars.
The only radical things that gain fervent support are usually punishments of one form or another.
Agree, the majority of the country are pretty horrible and selfish people which explains why we have a tory government most of the time, it is what people want. That is democracy I'm afraid.
I've got some news for all the people saying change can't happen fast, you have to wait til the people want it etc. WE DON"T HAVE TIME. If you haven't been paying attention climate change is approaching the pointy end. The forests are burning, the rainforests disappearing, the sea is almost dead, the permafrost is melting, and the arctic will soon be free of ice. When the tipping points kick in there is no way back, and some of them are happening now. When it really gets going all the major crises that have affected human civilisation throughout history will look like a tea party, and the result will be widespread economic, social and poltical collapse.
Rapid change is possible, it's happened many times, the latest example being covid. Pretty much overnight we threw out decades of economic dogma and decided we could support workers by paying their wages, and prop up businesses who would otherwise close. We could take away freedoms when it was necessary with a few days notice and shut down entire industries, and we can massively accelerate the development of vaccines, and reorganise society to combat the virus and care for those affected. History actually shows that we can change much faster than anyone thinks. So why don't we? Because the public allow themselves to be fooled that everything is impossible, by the people who stand to lose out if anything does change.
He's always been a protester rather than a politician. He got promoted way above where he was comfortable and that showed his incompetence and idealism to everyone. He let brexit slip by whilst he hid, he let anti-semitism run rife in the party and he had 2 appalling election losses. If there are enough people in the labour party that really want it to move farther left they really need to get behind a leader not a protester. I still don't think that would work though as you need to win over the voters first. As the tories have shown, get into power whilst right of centre and then let the loonies take control and off you go to the extremes.
IME most people in this country hate each other and begrudge anyone that’s not like them a living, unless it’s viewed as noble enough! Most things are done via stitch-ups and spite, which is encouraged in the survival of the fittest workplace, where you are constantly reminded how grateful you should be and how lucky you are.
People continually vote for liars, as long as it’s broadly (in the loosest sense) in-line with their ideology and stoked rage du jour, then complain about them being liars.
The only radical things that gain fervent support are usually punishments of one form or another.
Thoroughly depressing.
And entirely accurate.
That is the basic reason for all the shite that has gone down the last 4-5 years. Petty spite, general nastiness, selfishness and barely hidden prejudice. All being exhibited by (in a global sense) on of the most privileged populaces in the world.
**** Brexit, **** Trump, **** Johson, **** Cummings, **** them all.
* Brexit, * Trump, * Johson, * Cummings, **** them all.
I can agree with he last one but the the others were all voted for by the public. Ask yourself why? Because we allow ourselves to be conned and bought off even though it’s not in our interests.
Until people wake up and start demanding the things we are always told are impossible, the likes of Trump and Boris will always be on top. And as long as people like Starmer, Blair, Brown, Clegg, and every other centrist politicians tells us we have to be ‘realistic’ Boris et al will get away with their lies and obfuscation.
Boris et al will got away with their lies and obfuscation while Corbyn was the alternative.
while Corbyn was the alternative.
Yawn. This has been going on for decades. If you seriously think Corbyn was the blockage to change you need to have a major rethink. I promise you nothing will change under Starmer. It’s a game, and he’s playing it very well, but the aim of that game is not to solve the problems that face us.
Rapid change is possible, it’s happened many times, the latest example being covid.
People saw the need for the changes required by Covid (well, most people) but would they have voted for a party that was proposing such changes without a pandemic as the reasons?
Just because you don't like how it is and think it should change that doesn't mean you are right and it appears the majority don't agree with you. You are right about climate change but take a look at the Green party for example, not exactly popular is it - the majority of people don't care about it and unless you run a green dictatorship you will not bring major change.
I have accepted the fact that the major countries of the world are going to do f all about sorting out climate change and will deal with it when it is too late in 30 years times.
I promise you nothing will change under Starmer.
And I promise you things will change under Starmer. Minor and slow changes the people can accept, not massive changes/revolution that they cannot.
And as long as people like Starmer, Blair, Brown, Clegg, and every other centrist politicians tells us we have to be ‘realistic’ Boris et al will get away with their lies and obfuscation.
What utter bollocks.
As with Sir, it was easier to get elected to the Sistine choir if you were a eunuch.
the majority of people don’t care about it and unless you run a green dictatorship you will not bring major change.
Pretty much every poll puts climate change at the top of people's priorities. For the younger half of the population it's pretty much the universal number one issue. It's not green dictatorship we need, its green democracy.
I have accepted the fact that the major countries of the world are going to do f all about sorting out climate change and will deal with it when it is too late in 30 years times.
In 30 years time global GDP will have doubled again, and most of that will be fossil fuel based. We won't be able to deal with it in 30 years time.
And I promise you things will change under Starmer. Minor and slow changes the people can accept, not massive changes/revolution that they cannot.
The people have proven numerous times they can accept massive and rapid change. We're living the proof of that right now. It's not them who are holding it up.
Pretty much every poll puts climate change at the top of people’s priorities.
Until the shit hits the fan economically. Then 'we' will dig up every last hydrocarbon and burn it. If you honestly don't think this is going to happen in the wake of covid, then....
For the younger half of the population it’s pretty much the universal number one issue.
It is. Until they join the rat race trying to keep a decent standard of living for themselves. With the likes of the tories actively eroding job security.