Please give examples of these utopia's
well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it's children.
Alternatively can you say that capitalism "works"? A system in place in most "developed" countries, yet we have regular crises, millions go hungry, loads are without healthcare throughout the world, without the bare necessities even in the best of times. And how is even this level of failure sustained during the best of times? Mass slave labour, sweatshop labour, child labour; the subjugation of most of the world's people to sustain the lifestyles of the few.
The New Year statement is not quite something
Remarkably underwhelming
well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it's children.
So any examples of the utopia's lauded? Or is it that there are none? Or are you blaming everyone else for the model never working?
I would suggest it works better than the examples you have yet to quote of successful Marxist economiesAlternatively can you say that capitalism "works"?
Incase you missed it Big n daft..
well, Socialism has pretty much always been tried in third world countries. And pretty much always with the most powerful country in the world invading, assassinating, restricting, fomenting coups and scalping it's children.
edited for brainfart moment and no time to fact check
The list of socialist utopia's is blank. McDonnell etc want to take the wealth created by capitalism and share it out amongst those who do not believe in it. Not something anyone in the middle class is going to vote for. Not something that people with wealth or companies are going to allow themselves to be subject to. The anti-Capitalist tag will see Labour truely crushed at the next election, personally I don't see how they can distance themselves from it given the personalities and track record.
High punative taxes in France have been a disaster with wealth simply leaving the country and the most impacted individuals have been farmers whose theoretical wealth is in their land (most definitely not in their pockets) and have been trapped by the wealth tax.
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Venezuela was doing quite fine
Can you provide dates when it was "fine" in Venezuela so I can update the extensive list of other utopia's
So any examples of the utopia's lauded?
B&D, have a look at the causes and outcome of the '73 coup in Chile, fomented by the US who feared "a well-functioning socialist experiment" on the region and exerted diplomatic, economic, and covert pressure upon Chile's elected socialist government.
Chile wasn't ever going to be allowed to be socialist. "Utopian" or otherwise TBH. It was never in the interests of the US to allow the people of south america to see if socialism works.
And it's interesting, don't you think, that while the supporters of Capitalism allow it to have failures, and even admit that it's not perfect, somehow Marxism or Socialism has to be Utopian, a state that no political system could achieve TBH, but strange how the Capitalist system has to crush it ruthlessly whenever and wherever it appears.
Please give examples of these utopia's
Who said it would be utopia? It would be fairer and better on average and closer to a utopia than any consumerist capitalist system where few people are actually happy (even those with the money)
It would be fairer and better on average
Hurrah, everyone join the queue - free jar of Spreewald gherkins included with every Trabant sold.
Nicaragua under the Sandinista did pretty well.
The Soviet union was never socialist. It was totalitarian
The UK is a mixed economy - neither capitalist nor socialist nor any other -ist.
kerley - i am glad to report that i met plenty of people who appeared to be really quite happy today
The list of socialist utopia's is blank
It's about the same length as the list of capitalist utopias you pillock!
Double post, for this capitalist land of plenty
Getting back to Jezza, he actually came out with something half-decent the other day, comparing The Maybot with Henry the eighth, with her desire to use archaic royal perogatives to drive through Brexit legislation.
If he carries on that theme he'll be on to something. I bet she'all absolutely hate that! Pity he did it when no-one is listening as it's between Christmas and new year and nobody is watching the news as they're all full of mince pies.
So that potentially effective plan of attack will no doubt be immediately jettisoned in favour of banging on about unilateral nuclear disarmament, or something.
We've established that he's politically clueless, but FFS who on earth is in charge of the labour press office?!!
Certainly not...
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I expect the big relaunch will be handled in the same utterly clueless manner
But his comments (as reported) on the EU we're simply vacuous - at least that is the antithesis of spin, but equally useless!
The Soviet union was never socialist. It was totalitarian
What a pointless attempt at mixed metaphors
What you appear to be [i]trying[/i] to say is that the Soviet Union was a series of totalitarian socialist states rather than liberal & democratic socialist states
The question that opens is whether it is truly possible to be both socialist and a liberal democracy, or whether the principles of socialism and collectivism are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and individual freedom. All we know is that so far nobody appears to have succeeded in maintaining one for more than a few fleeting moments, perhaps primarily because their very existence is tied to the instability of permanent revolution.
It's about the same length as the list of capitalist utopias you pillock!
Nobody said there are capitalist utopia's, the challenge is for people to name Marxist economies that were measurably more utopian than the numerous capitalist economies around the world.
At the moment the list comprises of Venezuela during an undefined period and a whistful glimmer in Chile during the 70's. Happy to take more suggestions.
"or whether the principles of socialism and collectivism are fundamentally incompatible with democracy and individual freedom"
It certainly is at the start because initially the richer 50pc of the population all have to move abroad to save their cash from being reallocated to the less rich 50pc.
So straight away you have to build a Trump-esque wall to keep people in.
Hence Corbyn's lifelong anti EU stance. Socialism doesn't work with freedom of movement.
Sorry Binners but the Henry the eighth bubble has already burst
So straight away you have to build a Trump-esque wall to keep people in.
Stop it, the anti-fascist protective wall was built purely to stand up to western military adventurism, and you know it.
Stop it, the anti-fascist protective wall was built purely to stand up to western military adventurism, and you know it.
No it wasn't, it was to stop the hordes of economic migrants pouring over the border threatening the purity of the proletarian revolution
[i]"No one should think we are in love with the Wall; that is by no means the case… The anti-fascist protective rampart was necessary to stand up to the military adventurers," [/i]
Walter Ulbricht (East German head of state) 8th Sept 1962 speech to German Workers Conference
Can you provide dates when it was "fine" in Venezuela so I can update the extensive list of other utopia's
Brilliant. Could be the best STW laugh of 2016 🙂
Venezula, Nigaragua, Cuba ... yup all election winning comparisons come 2020. Can't wait. I appreciate those on the Corbyn side of the argument don't want to listen to me but those of us on the other side can't think of a bigger positive for us come 2020 than JC and his legacy. Even if he's gone by then the residual hint of Momentum (ie Militant Tendancy) around Labour will be enough. The Tories are not attacking Labour as they don't want to see a change.
Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin's ideas of Socialist democracy. Momentum's agenda is to deselect, democratically of course at a few £ a vote, those who don't agree. Sound familiar ? A purge is a purge.
Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin's ideas of Socialist democracy.
Seriously .. lol. You'll have to take us through the similarities ..?
Personally I see little difference between Corbyn and Stalin's ideas of Socialist democracy.
Is this jamba's update on Godwin's Law ?
Ninfan - no - they were never socialist. Now come on you must have read a bit about it. A totalitarian state cannot be socialist - the two are fundamentally different. You can keep a cat in a kennel and call it rover but it will never be a dog 🙂
Nicaragua under the sandinistas is about the best attempt at a socialist state - of course under constant military and economic attack from the US but even so in a decade took literacy rates from (IIRC) low teens to nearly 90% Halved child mortality etc etc. There is no doubt at all that average standard of living rose significantly and that is despite the US continual destabilisation and military attacks.
A totalitarian state cannot be socialist - the two are fundamentally different.
The Soviets and the Chinese certainly think you can be (Russia is Corbyn's idol state wise and beyond rapproach). Vietnamese too (btw used to do quite a bit of business in Vietnam, senior execs at bank had been ex military, highly decorated against the US ... clearly they where best qualified for the roles. Socialist principals at work eh ? Jobs for the boys more like)
(Russia is Corbyn's idol state wise and beyond rapproach).
It is strange that he and Trump have that in common....
So there are all of the capitalist models that don't work and all of the non-capitalist models that don't work.
The difference is the capitalist models are doing what they are intended to do whereas the non-capitalist models have failed for all sorts of reasons.
Better to try a fairer, non-capitalist, non consumerist model and get it to work that continue with models that bring about massive inequality as a key part of their approach.
Of course, people would need to realise it would be good for them and understand why - looking at 2016 people are not very good at that....
Of course, people would need to realise it would be good for them and understand why
And what if they disagree?
Reeducation camps? A trip to the Gulag?
History tells us that a socialist state can only be sustained through subjugation of the masses. TJ is simply wrong bout the Soviet Union being totalitarian instead of socialist, it was totalitarian [i]because[/i] it was socialist, as i) socialism in one country is impossible (Marx was clear that in order for socialism to thrive it required worldwide replication), and ii) constant revolution in the Trotskyist model is unsustainable.
Russia is Corbyn's idol state wise and beyond rapproach
You ****ing wot?
Citation please!
And what if they disagree?
More of what we have now, I suppose - people voting for random protest candidates/causes, probably becoming ever more bizarre til we end up electing the Monster Raving Lunatic Party.
Better to try a fairer, non-capitalist, non consumerist model and get it to work that continue with models that bring about massive inequality as a key part of their approach.
The Labour party is a front for the Fabian Socialists - the central dogma is based on deception - Even their emblem is a wolf in sheeps clothing - Only useful idiots Shills or Trillionaires support their policy proposals. I want the Labour Party to die not because I support the Conservatives - they are repugnant in equal measure - we need new political parties - the left/right paradigm over ..
Jobs for the boys
Lucky that sort of thing never happens here then
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38466990
Without wanting to get into this deep philosophical argument, anyone who thinks you can measure the success/failure of socialism with any single nation state is an idiot. A more interesting measure is to look at what happens in places where socialist principles have been implemented. The postwar consensus in Western Europe is arguably the best example of socialist principles being successful.
socialist principles
Which would they be then?
Socialism is defined by social ownership of the means of production
All the other stuff that it claims predates its creation
(Education for the masses, social support and free to access healthcare were pioneered by the church long before socialism 'claimed' them - just look at the history of the word 'dole' and why we use it, it goes back nearly a thousand years)
[url= http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyns-team-rejects-call-9031006 ]For Molgrips[/url]
Which would they be then?
The deliberate and systematic redistribution of wealth from the few to the many. There's a huge difference between that and the ad-hoc charity you're talking about.
The deliberate and systematic redistribution of wealth from the few to the many. There's a huge difference between that and the ad-hoc charity you're talking about.
Tithes were not deliberate and systematic?
Cranberry - give me a break. Actual evidence please not political insinuation.
You **** wot?
Citation please!
Look at Corbyn and Labour's responce to Syria/Allepo - criticism directed at US, silent on Russia. Something numerous commentators have challenged them on.
Anti-Capitalist and thus anti-US sentiment is at the core of Corbyn's Labour Party. Russia is their soul mate and kindred spirit. Cuba under Castro too.
So dazh, sounds like you are describing our progressive tax system.