Jeremy Corbyn

. NHS is much the same. Neither are topics anyone can have a sensible conversation on.

in much the same way if i said we should have no pensions at all and only private stuff folk can afford i doubt i would get a sensible conversation - I am sure i would get a reply from RW extremists but it would not be sensible
Your views on the NHS are very very at the margins of anyone in the UK

You could IIRC be taxed up to 96% ( income tax of 80% and a surcharge for "unearned" income such as share dividends )

PS the tories also had high rates of tax it was not just a Labour thing it was the post war consensus thing.

Anyone with even a casual acquaintance with facts will know (1) tax take has been remarkably constant for a long time, albeit with different make up, and (2) that we rank close to average among OECD countries in terms of tax levels ie a middle taxing country.

But let's not let this get in the way...

Anyone seen Jezzas twitter feed this morning...?

Full employment

Merely full employment? Today we we have to import 300,000 new workers every year to keep up with the number of new jobs.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/09/conservatives-hold-sleaford-north-hykeham-by-election/ ]Somewhat predictably... labour dead last on 10%[/url]

Comrade Corbyn better get used to looking at that share of the vote. Under him, thats Labours position in our new political culture. They just had a despairing Labour MP (surely now an endangered species) on radio 4. She (just) stopped short of saying 'we're going to lose every seat apart from Islington at the next election with that ****-wit at the helm', but that was the obvious implication.

Will there be any comment from the beardy one today? Of course not. It'll be business as usual. Whatever that is. A socialist knitting convention in Warsaw? Whatever it takes to drag the labour party further into the electoral wilderness.....

Even I've had enough of him now.
😐

I'm beginning to wonder whether Jezza is on a mission to re-unite the country. It seems only he can get pro and anti-brexiters to agree on something. 🙂

🙂

Labour are doing wonderfully well, to say anything else is just media bias surely ? Labour are where they are at the ballot box and in the polls without being attacked by Tories, UKIP and the Lib Dems. At a General Election they are going to face a withering attack.

Andy Burnham is making the right choice and looking elsewhere for employment

At a General Election they are going to face a withering attack.

...not if no one can find where we're hiding.

Andy Burnham is making the right choice and looking elsewhere for employment

He's played a blinder. Deployed his ejector seat, and getting out of the way of the upcoming electoral juggernaut, without looking disloyal to he-who-must-be-obeyed.

My prediction is that freed from the Westminster Labour doom-quagmire, he'll be a considerably more effective opposition leader in his self-imposed Northern Exile, than the useless beardy bloke floundering hopelessly in his Islington 6th form echo chamber

anybody else's twitter working today - mine is not refreshing so cant see any comment from Jezza yet?

that we rank close to average among OECD countries in terms of tax levels ie a middle taxing country.

Well I would say below average.(Almost bottom 3rd). And then look at the 'powerhouse' of countries that sit in that percentile. Apart from Japan (and possibly Switzerland) we're aligned in the bottom third or so with some pretty weak economies.

And as for corporation tax we are way way below average.

My prediction is that freed from the Westminster Labour doom-quagmire, he'll be a considerably more effective opposition leader in his self-imposed Northern Exile, than the useless beardy bloke floundering hopelessly in his Islington 6th form echo chamber

Burnham will be any but "effective", has he flip flopped on any policies yet? oh no, he hasn't got any and is having a big twitter lead consultation

damning report on maternity services in North Manchester? That will be JC style response from our local professional scouser

Well excuse me rone, I did the calculation of 17/34 in my head and could have got it wrong

I got 13/34. Maybe you have newer data? I wasn't being facetious.

😉 Doesnt matter! The only thing that is falsifiable is the notion that we are a low tax, low wage economy. But you are correct re corporation tax as corporates have faced a lower tax burden (something that our centre-left friends up north wanted to extend even further!)

But then again, corporates dont pay tax - their customers, employees or shareholders do!

The only thing that is falsifiable is the notion that we are a low tax, low wage economy.

Phew he's surfaced

Abuse @TulipSiddiq received yesterday is completely unacceptable. Political disagreement should never lead to such vile threats and language

perhaps he was being quiet about this week in case Jambas found out where he was on wednesday!! 😉

that we rank close to average among OECD countries in terms of tax levels ie a middle taxing country.

From rones post above. Note I pointed out we receive healthcare for our taxes. Most other countries do not.

[b]IIRC[/b] the average cost of healthcare is about 10% of average wages - so all those countries with insurance based healthcare systems you need to add around 10% to the tax figure to have a comparison with the UK

@rone do those studies include VAT, as many EU countries have VAT on food of 5-10% and full VAT (20%) on utility bills so we'll be more towards the low end of that basis. Sure I read somewhere German utility bills are 50% higher than ours due to various taxes

TJ French, Germans, Spanish, Dutch, Spanish ... all get "free" healthcare paid for via their taxes.

@TMH top Twitter joke 🙂 Corbyn always goes to ground / into a paralysis when things get remotely difficult. You can see on QT they've lost interest in even having the Labour "front bench" team on. This was exactly as predicted, Labour are becoming irrelevant

Jamba - no they do not.
~Dutch and German are mixed - ie if you earn below a certain amount the state picks up the bill but earn over a certain amount you have to. dutch also have 2 levels of insurance. My Dutch family pay £300 a month compulsory healthcare insurance for the lower level. Each of my nephews cost £3000 on top to be born.

Yes they do Jambas.

TBC the rankings vary form year to year and OECD has just published new numbers last week, which actually puts us lower than 17 and at 22 just below the average. So neither Rone nor my original numbers was up-to-date!! Still we are in the big band around the average level. And as before, the level of tax take in the UK is remarkably stable given the noise and misunderstanding (see ^) of the issue.

But VAT in UK is broadly the same at OECD average too.

we tax rel, high on income and property and rel, low on corporates, social security and non VAT taxes and services

Any word from Jezza yet? Or is he still at his socialist fell-walking convention in Uzbekistan?

after the "book club", who knows?

The Guardian has an interesting summary

The same cannot be said of Jeremy Corbyn. There is no positive gloss to apply to Labour’s fourth place in Sleaford. Its vote share shrank seven points to 10% from 17% in 2015 (and 34% in 1997). This, too, is consistent with polls that tell a story of stagnation tipping towards decline. The simplest explanation for Labour’s dismal showing is that it has no coherent position on Brexit, which is the question of the moment and so bound to hover over the polling booth. But that reflects a deeper malaise. Mr Corbyn’s party struggles to express itself on Brexit because it is unsure of its instincts on matters that will define the UK’s post-EU status: border control, openness to global markets, willingness to project power through western alliances. As a result, Labour offers a complaint about Conservative management but no alternative prospectus. There is nothing to instil confidence or hold together the coalition of the party’s traditional supporters that straddles divergent – arguably incompatible – attitudes on immigration and, by extension, Europe. These are deep structural problems – and they have built up over years. No leader could be expected to solve them overnight. But an essential measure of leadership, in the absence of ready solutions, is the ability to signal some interim strategy for recovery; some capability for reassurance that the quest for answers is under way; that the job, however difficult, is being done. It is the apparent lack of this remedial activity that is so profoundly damaging to Labour’s standing.

Poor bloke. Must feel a bit lonely at the top with no love coming up from below!

Talking of the disappeared where is our very own Croydonista? Its a tame place without his solid defence of the old boy. God knows he needs some allies.

TJ my point is healthcare is free, it doesn't stop when you are unemployed or retired. When you are working there are higher costs if you earn more. Like in France they have a mixed system of state and private / top up options. Key difference in France vs UK imo is that if you go "private" the state still pays its basic starter amount so you get a vakue back for the taxes you've paid.

Seems to me that the strategy of Corbyn's opponents is now to just ignore him and carry on whilst not directly challenging his authority. And it's working. Why they couldn't have worked this out sooner instead of launching that idiotic leadership challenge is a mystery. Give him enough rope, he'll do the rest it would seem.

Definitely dazh, the longer he is situ the better

I thought Jezza had quite a few fans on here, have they changed their minds/opinion ?

Jamababalay - member

TJ French, Germans, Spanish, Dutch, Spanish ... all get "free" healthcare paid for via their taxes.

Germans definitely don't. My cousin decided not to bother paying for insurance, which was fine until he got very sick when, after a some quite expensive (but ultimately fruitless) treatment, the insurance companies involved got quite unhappy.

Seems to me that the strategy of Corbyn's opponents is now to just ignore him and carry on whilst not directly challenging his authority. And it's working.

It's not really. The central issue is that Corbyn isn't perhaps as concerned as he should be about electoral success. He's happy to just bod along, ineffectively, preaching to the converted. The question is, will he go even after Labour get whipped in 2020? He may still have the support of the majority of Labour members, activists, and perhaps even Unite.

Jamba - you are still talking nonsense. If you are earning you have to pay. The vast majority of healthcare costs do not come from taxation - you pay it on top of your taxation. so this must be allowed for when comparing tax rates.

I wish I understood that - cant work out if there is a genuinely interesting idea here or just jumbled thinking. Its a new idea though...

I thought Jezza had quite a few fans on here, have they changed their minds/opinion ?

That's too simplistic a question really. I had an open mind on Corbyn and supported the change away from the empty career politics that labour exercised under blair/brown, especially as the centrist new labour approach was no longer working. Corbyn however was an accidental leader, and clearly not committed to it. The labour right then went and made things worse by entrenching his leadership with that ridiculous challenge.

The problems with labour go way beyond Corbyn, he's just the poor sod at the focus of it. And brexit has amplified the problems massively. Where Corbyn has failed however is that he's compromised his beliefs to the point where he's allowed himself to become portrayed as a flip-flopping metropolitan elitist liberal who can't make his mind up about brexit. Had he gone for the populist left vote it might have been different, but instead he's retreated into his comfort zone with predictable results.

In the end it's not case of changing opinion, but of recognising reality. And the fact that the PLP couldn't put up a candidate to beat him is just as much a failure as Corbyn himself.

Corbyn was a stunt that went wrong from the start fuelled by media's desire for a story/something to ridicule. There is little surprising about the outcome. Labour repeating much of their history. What do people say about not learning the lessons....?

I genuinely feel for the guy - many get promoted well beyond their level of competence but few have it unfurl under 24/7 scrutiny. Its all rather sad.

Still stand by my voting for J.C in both leadership elections.

Sorry I cant bs bothered to google it but aren't the membership figures something like momentum 10000 and Labour 200000?

Edit 20k and 550k

"The question is, will he go even after Labour get whipped in 2020? He may still have the support of the majority of Labour members, activists, and perhaps even Unite."

Why would he go after a big loss in 2020? His mandate is to reform the party into a Socialist Workers Party. The membership measure his success by that, not by winning parliamentary seats.

I suspect he wants out, but like Mugabe, if he quits his own henchmen will tear him apart.

I actually feel for the guy. He wanted to be a campaigning back bench MP waving the flag for the left, he'd have retired in 2020 with an unremarkable but fairly commendable career behind him. Buy pure chance he's ended up the man who killed 100 year old party and won't be able to retire until he's well on the way to 80.

Wonder what his fairly recent wife thinks? She didn't sign up for this.

Where is ernie_lynch ?

I genuinely feel for the guy

He could have said no.

He didnt want the job and didnt expect to win - then he got caught up in the whirlwind and the rest is a tragedy

So, he didn't want it, but let other people badger him in to running? All the hallmarks of a true leader! 😀

His mandate is to reform the party into a Socialist Workers Party.

Don't be ridiculous. The SWP have a membership in the low thousands, labour hundreds of thousands. He has a mandate to take the party back to democratic control of the members where future leaders can no longer railroad policy to achieve their own personal ambitions. If he achieves one thing that will be it. Had they let him get on with that I'm convinced he'd have stepped aside with good grace and allowed someone else to go to the next election. I still actually think that could happen, but it's more likely that the centrist PLP members will break away and form an anti-brexit alliance with the libdems and SNP.

dazh, we are getting to see how that works out for them. Policy should not be set by recently joined activists that much is clear.

"He didnt want the job and didnt expect to win - then he got caught up in the whirlwind and the rest is a tragedy"

Yeah, really hard to find a winner in all this. Not the liberals. Maybe UKIP which is ironic since Labour's leadership trio are Brexiteers.

So, he didn't want it, but let other people badger him in to running? All the hallmarks of a true leader!

There has never been any doubt about his leadership qualities

"He could have said no."

He couldn't really. They all sat in a room to discuss who the token hard left candidate should be. JMcD didn't fancy it had tried before and had had a heart attack, Abbot had tried before. Attention gravitated to JC.

It really was JCs turn, he couldn't really get out of it.

Where is ernie_lynch ?

Castro's funeral