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He can’t lead. That’s his major issue. Hence the constant radio silence. He doesn’t even understand the qualities required for leadership, let alone possess them.
I agree, however my point is someone who could lead and have shown leadership may have put the Labour party in a better position.
If I was the leader I would be using the propaganda/buzzword approach that can be seen to work for the Tories. Don't need to worry about the substance as 95% of voters won't be looking that far.
I would have to ignore the wishes and democratic element of the party though and that just gets in teh way as tehy is no majority view on anything.
OOB – so yuo are against a second ref – that means a no deal brexit. The only way to stop a no deal long term is a second ref. There is no other route with legitimacy
A recently elected government is about as legitimate as you can get. In contrast referendums have no legitimacy and literally compel nobody to do anything. They're advisory, the people campaigning on each side have no responsibility for carrying out the result.
If the last three years of chaos haven't put you off referendums I don't know what would have.
The "constant radio silence is a result of a lack of reporting not a lack of saying stuff.
Big speech today - how long will it get on the TV news? I bet its less than a minute and I bet its mostly ignored in tomorrows papers apart from baseless attacks by some based around outright lies
OOB - its a binary choice - its either a second referendum or leave probably no deal. NO incoming government could unilaterally revoke - if you think a second ref would cause more trouble imagine how much revoking by a government elected on a minority of votes!
Corbyn says the first task of a Labour government would be to get Brexit sorted.
The first task of a Labour government will be to finally get Brexit sorted.
After three years of Tory failure, it’s time to take the decision out of the hands of politicians and let the people have the final say.
So a Labour government will immediately legislate for a referendum.
And he sums up the Brexit position confirmed at Labour’s conference.
Within six months of being elected we will put that deal to a public vote alongside remain.
And as prime minister I will carry out whatever the people decide.
There’s nothing complicated about that position. It’s really very simple: Labour trusts the people to decide.
Ignoring the delivery, it’s a speech I’m fully behind. If it was delivered by someone else it might cut through and win over some voters. The “you will get to decide in a referendum” approach, followed by key pledges on education, transport etc, isn’t bad in and of itself. It’s not offering the country leadership though, is it? I like it, but then I’m a soft lefty who likes the idea of a PM deferring to members and voters… when it’s genuine. Do many other outsiders still think he’s genuine about such things? I’m 50:50 on that myself.
In short: an uninspiring delivery from someone who isn’t trusted by voters. And that’s coming from someone who wants a referendum, abolition of student fees, publicly owned transport… and just about everything he proposed in that speech.
NO incoming government could unilaterally revoke
They can. They can nuke Luxenbourg if they want, that's how representative democracy works.
There would be a *massive* HoC majority for it with SNP support plus dozens defying the whip on the opposition benches whoever that opposition is.
In short: an uninspiring delivery
if you want oration skills then maybe Brian Blessed or Ian McKellen would be better bets? personally I’m more interested in what they will do and the affect it has on all our lives than putting on a good show for the tv cameras.
You've said much the same before, but as it's been pointed out before, you can have the finest, most egalitarian policies going, but if you can't communicate those policies effectively you'll never achieve power.
A recently elected government is about as legitimate as you can get.
no it isn't - an election will be completely tainted by other issues like people always having voted for a particular party and not being able to vote for anyone else.
And other people won't want to vote on a single issue like this, as it will bring along a whole load of other policies they might not want - but the politicians will think that they have a mandate for.
the brexit issue needs to be dealt with by a seperate referendum before any GE.
Brian Blessed
he'd probably get a lot of votes...
the brexit issue needs to be dealt with by a seperate referendum before any GE.
There is only one political party backing a second referendum in any form.
There is only one political party backing a second referendum in any form.
Well, that’s just a lie.
Which parties are supporting a second ref? Not the lib dems or tories. Honestly I am not sure the green england position nor SNP. Green scotland do not stand for westminster.
Can I suggest we take the general discussion to the brxit thread? Leave this to discussion of Corbyn?
Which parties are supporting a second ref?
SNP, PC, Greens, LibDems, and now Labour. Who have I missed?
Lib dems do not support a second ref.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/15/lib-dems-pledge-to-revoke-brexit-without-referendum
Second para.
A question for the jezza fans, if you were forming a government what position would corbyn hold in your cabinet.
Chief Whip
Second para.
But how do they support it without supporting a Labour government?
Unless I've missed something.
Chief Whip
nah, Agriculture.
Sorry, I meant Horticulture.
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster
But how do they support it without supporting a Labour government?
Probably would if they had to. Sooner or later pragmatism will kick in. They've ruled out coalition with Labour iirc, and ( also iirc ) Labour have reciprocated, but let's face it, anything could be on the table if it came to it, and these are the things you say before a general election.
Supply and confidence perhaps?...
I do not watch the TV news anymore - but anyone who does how much airtime did Corbyn get for his speech?
Not picked upon it at all.
There you go.
Really? thats disgraceful.
There you go:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49998384
Most inspirational.
The speech was covered live (or played shortly after) on LBC yesterday. No doubt after such an important speech JC will be making himself available for interview to all the main broadcasters today.
Yeah, I heard it on the radio. It would probably be better for people to read it than experience it on TV or Radio, if you want to get them to consider the content. Anyone got a link the full text of the speech to post here?
So my point proven. Big set piece speech ignored by TV news
So my point proven. Big set piece speech ignored by TV news
It was broadcast live on BBC2 Newsroom (I think that's the mid-morning news thing on the beeb isn't it? I watched it. Utterly riveting.
Here's the copy. Not going to copy and paste as would just be a wall of text.
https://labour.org.uk/press/full-text-of-jeremy-corbyns-speech-in-northampton/
EDIT: Edited to take account of Mr. Political Geek's last post. :o)
It's a media-wide conspiracy, his publicity team are incompetent/don't care, or he didn't have anything new to say considered worth reporting.
They do say it's usually the simplest answer, so conspiracy it must be.
Why not a mention on the main TV news?
It was on Channel 4 news.
There he was, in all his glory. Like a local councillor at a town hall meeting reading out the proposals for some new traffic calming measures on the B375
Stirring stuff.
Maybe it didn’t get full coverage as most TV channels don’t want their audience going all sleepy bo-bo’s and missing their latest drama that follows the news?
Why not a mention on the main TV news?
I don't know. It's was shown live on TV. I don't watch either ten o-clock news shows, so can only take others' word for it not getting a mention on there. Channel4 did a thing on that stand-up guy, Chris Williamson and Labour's reaction to Johnson being given the low-down by Leo but most of their show was devoted to Turkey's invasion of operations in Syria. But I can only assume it's a massive conspiracy against him by the MSM.
I wonder how many times he said "people" in this speech...
Because they have either; 1. a limited amount of time to cover Varadkar/Johnson, Climate change protest, Trumps on-going public mental collapse, the resumption of war in the middle east and the possible release of many hundreds of ISIS fighters, the typhoon in Japan and how it effects a couple of major sporting events...Or 2, a massive conspiracy to deny airtime to a politician.
I know which one I'm going with
I don't think there's a conspiracy against Corbyn, I just think the leader of the opposition gets less airtime than the PM and that's always been the way it is. That being the case it makes a mockery of Binners et al criticisms of him because he's not on the news 24/7. Weird isn't it that his greatest critics seem to want to see him all the time? I'm sure there's a psychology study or two that could be had out of it.
I’m sure there’s a psychology study or two that could be had out of it.
Grow up.
Weird isn’t it that his greatest critics seem to want to see him all the time?
Some of us want a Labour government. Like it or not, we need someone who can inspire beyond the true believers, someone who at least comes across as wanting to do the job. Someone prepared to be questioned on a regular basis, so that their answers can be heard, and any misconceptions about what a Labour government would be like can be dispelled. Corbyn is not up to the job. An invisible leader of the opposition is of no use to me or my family. Blame the game if you want, or wake up and realise that we need someone who can play it.
The current Labour party are notoriously resistant to being on the media. I was listening to a podcast (LBC one I think) and their news outfit sends a team to all the conferences. They asked Labour to put up some big names for them to interview, all they got offered was a junior shadow minister I'd never heard off. That the second year in the row for them and as a result they're seriously considering not covering the Labour Conference next year.
The Labour leadership are newsworthy, people will watch them. (As said above, people who don't agree with him are even more likely to watch then hoping they'll slip up.)
The idea that the media won't cover him is laughable, covering news is how they make their money, more people watch big hitters than the bit players, so big hitters are in constant demand by the media.
Personally I don't think he's on telly much for a couple of reasons. 1 when there's a busy news day, a speech by the leader of the opposition just isn't the most important thing, and will get bumped down the schedule until it falls off the programme, and 2. Corbyn (or his team) have pretty much made themselves unavailable, You can hear it from the Today programme to LBC, to the 24 hours news programmes, of presenters bemoaning the fact that regardless of how many times they ask, he won't make himself available for interview. I think a lot of the time that Corbyn isn't on the news, is because he doesn't want to be.
Grow up.
Another very insightful and informative contribution there DD. I always look forward to them.
Corbyn (or his team) have pretty much made themselves unavailable
It comes back again to leadership styles. Binners et al want leadership by soundbite on the news a la Blair, Corbyn clearly thinks touring the country and talking to people in their communities is a more valuable enterprise. Personally I would rather Corbyn was meeting real people than promoting the careers of the likes of Laura Kuensberg and Robert Peston.
Surely, any party leader is comfortable to preach to the converted. They wouldn’t get their role as leader otherwise. To win a general election a lot more than that is required. A lot more. Or are you suggesting that Corbyn is spending his time out in the “communities” meeting “real people” who aren’t already in the “fan base”? Any recent examples of that? How is he growing support for the idea of a Labour government? How effective are his current efforts, in your opinion?
Another very insightful and informative contribution there DD. I always look forward to them.
You might want to leave it with the broad brush insults then dazh. At least your effort there was aimed a little more carefully. About as grown up as usual though.
Corbyn clearly thinks touring the country and talking to people in their communities is a more valuable enterprise.
How's that working out for him?
Badly.
The leader of the party needs to be on the biggest platforms available, as much as possible.
Not doing backbencher work.
Clearly you believe different, but the poll results are showing the lack of public response to his leadership style.
https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-visit-to-norwich-in-pictures-1-6258012
On this visit, he not only visited labour activists who will be on the ground during the campaign talking to voters, which I'm sure you agree is very important, he also addressed a public meeting in a church hall, gave interviews to the media, and visited a childrens centre to talk to staff about childrens services and get their views on what labour policy should be in that area.
He does trips like this all the time. I would much rather he did these than waste half a day hanging around in a BBC green room for 10 minutes of being the background to Kuensberg's latest ego-trip.
but the poll results
But remember 2017 when up against the clearest, slickest election campaign ever by a strong, united Tory party, he defied all odds and ran them close.
he also addressed a public meeting in a church hall
How many people who were worried about a Labour government attended that, and left feeling reassured and enthused enough to change their vote to Labour at the upcoming election? Given that figure, how many more such events will he need to attend to swing the election and get rid of Johnson? Perhaps he could keep performing this valuable role as a backbencher or shadow spokesman on something (I’d suggest transport rather than foreign affairs) and let someone else take on his headline role and engage with the “real people” via mass communications, rather than rooms full of existing supporters.
The Today programme had Corbyn on briefly during the conference.
They had been constantly requesting interviews with him, only to be rebuffed every time with ‘he isn’t available’ for over 3 years.
3 ***ING YEARS!!
Something they were happy to point out every time he refused to be interviewed, yet again
But, yeah... it’s all a media conspiracy to deny him exposure
The interviews you do get to see are woefully performed - from the 'journalists' in question.
The BBC like their slice and dice - see the recent on with Marr? (22/09) God it was embarrassing for Marr.
I don't blame Corbyn at all for picking and choosing the IVs he gets.
3 ***ING YEARS!!
How many people listen to the bloody Today programme? If ever their was an example of the news media being obsessed with itself rather than whats going on outside the Today programme is it. I reckon once every 3 years is probably about the right amount of airtime, or probably too much.
Fewer and fewer people. Lots of those that do aren’t currently voting Labour though, and we need them to. Again, what is Corbyn doing to reassure and enthuse people to change their vote to Labour? In your opinion, how is he doing with that?
I reckon once every 3 years is probably about the right amount of airtime, or probably too much.
I don’t blame Corbyn at all for picking and choosing the IVs he gets.
Make your minds up, is there a MSM conspiracy to keep Corbyn off the air, or is he (right or wrongly) failing to do much media. Simultaneously arguing both is a bit freaky.
I would much rather he did these
If he fails to take advantage of the available media platforms, he fails at getting elected.
I don't know how much plainer it can be spelled out.
Fewer and fewer people.
Is that true? I'd have thought pretty much 100pc of people who have an interest in current affairs and drive to work listen.
I agree the interviewers tactics are woeful and I don't blame people for not doing it, but that's not a MSM conspiracy.
First he chatted to people in the car park behind the Royal Mail Bo’ness Delivery office. He then moved on to Bo’ness Library meeting room to talk with Linlithgow and East Falkirk Labour Party members.
Those still look like Corbyn talking to Labour activists. That’s great. But isn’t answering my questions at all.
Oh, a football kickabout.
🤷🏻♂️
Oh, a football kickabout.
Take it you didn't read it? He was visitng because the club do huge amounts of work in their local community by running a foodbank.
Given all the examples I've posted, do you still maintain that he's only preaching to the converted? I'm amazed he packs so much in on top of his parliamentary duties and other party stuff. I doubt any of us could/would keep up that sort of schedule.
Well, I’m impressed. [that’s a lie]
How well is this low key local engagement going for Labour? It’s all essential stuff, but do you really believe it’s enough?
And here he is visiting notorious communist agitators, the NFU... 🙂
And here he is visiting notorious communist agitators, the NFU…
“An NFU member” not the NFU.
He visited a farm. I couldn’t be less impressed.
Not forgetting the revolutionary vanguard in the Mersey Care health trust...
https://www.merseycare.nhs.uk/about-us/news/labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn-visits-clock-view-hospital/
Not forgetting the revolutionary vanguard in the Mersey Care health trust…
> https://www.merseycare.nhs.uk/about-us/news/labour-leader-jeremy-corbyn-visits-clock-view-hospital/ <
Whatever happened to that Labour MP, and shadow minister, Luciana Berger, that he visited that hospital with in… 2015? Do you even read the stories behind the links you post?
And the Scarborough branch of the Revolutionary Communist Market Traders....
https://www.yorkshirecoastradio.com/news/local-news/2925844/jeremy-corbyn-visits-scarborough/
Do you even read the stories behind the links you post?
The point I'm making is that your claim that he doesn't meet real people and only preaches to the converted is clearly bollox. I doubt there's any other politician who meets more 'real' people than Corbyn. You can argue all you like about how valuable that is, but I'd much rather this than wasting his time in a BBC studio answering ridiculous question like 'are you an anti-semite'.
How many people listen to the bloody Today programme?
Latest figures is 6.7 million daily, and LBC another 1.3 million he won't go on either. He can talk at as many town halls to Labour supporters as much as he wants, he'll never get his message across to as many folk as he can by appearing on telly or radio, and TBH, in order to get voted into power, people need to see and hear you. So telly and radio are important, like it as not. You can whinge about Laura Kunesberg or Peston as much as you want, that's the world in which he operates, and trying to push against that is never going to be a successful strategy.
Still, I imagine the train journey home gives him an opportunity to pretend there are no seats on Virgin Trains, and tweet some fake news, so all's not lost, eh?
TBH, if i was the leader of the opposition I be on any and every news programme all the hours telling as many folk as I could why a Tory Brexit is going to **** them up the arse, and the fact that he isn't doing that speaks volumes about what he actually wants IMO.
The point I’m making is that your claim that he doesn’t meet real people and only preaches to the converted is clearly bollox.
2015 !
With a shadow minister subsequently pushed out of the party !
Whatever point you wanted to make with that post, it still feels to me like you’re trying to convince some of us not to vote Labour while Corbyn is leader.
You can’t change my mind, no matter how hard you try, I’m still voting Labour.
My “claim” was that Corbyn’s approach touches very few people outside those already voting Labour, and it isn’t nearly enough. It isn’t working, is it. He has to play (and win) the mass communication game to get a majority after the next election.
2015 !
Well it wasn't obvious that one as there was no date on the press release but the point still stands, he was visiting and speaking to real people. Not party members, not momentum activists, but healthcare professionals. He does this all the time, and I for one think that's exactly what our political leaders should be doing, and not just during an election campaign. Or they can spend their time feeding the news cycle political psychodrama who's main function these days seems to be to make celebrities out of 'reporters' and commentators rather than actually informing people about what is going on.
Luciana Berger should have been the clue that it was far from recent. Read before posting. Now you’ve got me thinking about the way she was pushed out of the party… and how Corbyn “reacted” to it. Despite all that, I’ll be voting Labour. You make it hard though. I’ll be voting Labour despite the leader, like millions of others. I fear there won’t be enough of us.
I'm voting Labour despite Corbyn not because of him, just because it offers about the best possibility of getting an end to the Brexit nightmare, I don't expect Corbyn to help with that, but at least the rest of the labour party haven't got their collective heads up their arses.
It helps that our local candidate isn't a bad lad, and sitting Tory is a ****er. and hasn't got much of majority, I expect though I'll be lumped in some Ex-Communist Labour strategists briefing document about leave Labour northern strongholds, (as where I live was leave voting) so in fact my vote for them will probably be mis-used and mis-interpreted by the very people I'm hoping will offer me the best chance of stopping Brexit all together.
We are so far down the rabbit hole, there has ceased to be any daylight.
Or they can spend their time feeding the news cycle political psychodrama who’s main function these days seems to be to make celebrities out of ‘reporters’ and commentators rather than actually informing people about what is going on.
That's the world of the opposition leader, by vacating it, he hands the airwaves to the Tories.
so in fact my vote for them will probably be mis-used and mis-interpreted
A vote is just a vote, and it's only function is a very small contribution to getting the local candidate elected as an MP. I don't really read any more into it than that really.
Latest figures is 6.7 million daily, and LBC another 1.3 million he won’t go on either. He can talk at as many town halls to Labour supporters as much as he wants, he’ll never get his message across to as many folk as he can by appearing on telly or radio
Yes he needs to get his message across more effectively but as Dazh said going on the Today program and getting the same old "so I hear you're a racist now" questions do not get a message across in any way.
Yes he needs to get his message across more effectively but as Dazh said going on the Today program and getting the same old “so I hear you’re a racist now” questions do not get a message across in any way.
And we’re back to Berger again. There’s one LibDem I hope wins her new seat. A reminder of how Corbyn not addressing issues, and answering questions, just because they are tricky, isn’t good for the Labour Party.