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Socialism v the status-quo is always going to be a hard sell.
So very true! 😀
He hasn’t moved towards remain though, has he?
He's offered what you claimed you wanted all along. It is of course no surprise that you're now claiming that you want something else.
Stop being horrid to Jeremy! It’s not his fault he’s all ... you know... ‘Brexity’!
If he says he doesn’t understand why he’s meant to hate the EU so much Len gives him a Chinese burn then Seamus gives him a wedgie and nicks his hummus
the remain vote is split.
No it's not. The leave vote is split between the Brexit Party and the Conservative Party. The only mainstream remain party is the LibDems.
Stop being horrid to Jeremy! It’s not his fault he’s all … you know… ‘Brexity’!
If he says he doesn’t understand why he’s meant to hate the EU so much Len gives him a Chinese burn then Seamus gives him a wedgie and nicks his hummus
Been at the prosecco again, I see.
Prosecco. Oh no dahhhhling. How frightful. Champagne only, comrade
I presume you’re drinking vodka distilled from turnip peelings in a Labour camp in Ukraine?
Morning comrade. Is the revolution progressing ok?
No, people keep moaning about Corbyn even when they should be on the same side, it's ruining it.
I've said many times and will again. Irrespective of everyone's prejudices or hysteria about Corbyn, the only route to stopping brexit is via a labour led government, and Corbyn is the democratically elected leader of the labour party. Anyone denying that is simply making a no deal brexit more likely.
There can be only 1.
Your repetition doesn’t make the point true. There are other paths… they may be currently blocked by parties, groups or individuals… but they exist.
3 weeks til a no deal brexit. In that time the Corbyn haters can focus on trying to change the labour leadership, or get on with preventing a no deal. It's that simple.
Christ, the SNP despise labour, and vice versa, but even they are prepared to put aside their differences for the common good.
Corbyn can stay leader, other parties and MPs can’t change that. They can force a no deal Brexit on us rather than vote to make him PM though, and many would. Labour can avoid no deal by proposing another temporary PM, get an extension, call an election, and then start campaigning… they’re three months behind… Corbyn has a lot of work to do if he wants to be PM for five years after that election, let someone else do the straight jacketed job as temporary PM for a few days. Remember, I want Corbyn to be PM after an election, and give us a referendum… but Labour need all these non-Labour MPs to act together with their own MPs first. Just make it happen! There is no reason why Corbyn needs to be the caretaker PM, who can only enact what Tory rebel MPs will back.
If the remainer anti-Corbyns can criticise him for not swallowing his pride (if that's what it is) and letting someone else be caretaker PM, then you can bloody well swallow your own pride and vote for the party that's promising a way back to remain. Do us all a favour.
Even Will Hutton, the most blairite of blairites seems to agree...
then you can bloody well swallow your own pride and vote for the party that’s promising a way back to remain
Who was that aimed at?
And which party do you mean?
Anyone heard anything from the chosen one of late?
Oh...erm... did anybody actually nip up to the allotment and let him know that parliament hadn't been prorogued, after all?
Somebody best pop up and let him know and bring him up to speed on what's happened in the last 10 days
If the remainer anti-Corbyns can criticise him for not swallowing his pride (if that’s what it is) and letting someone else be caretaker PM, then you can bloody well swallow your own pride and vote for the party that’s promising a way back to remain. Do us all a favour.
That’ll be the LibDems then..
That’ll be the LibDems then..
Ah yes their policy of "revoke" apart from its not really revoke since they wont be in the position to do so and therefore the policy is, what, exactly? What will be their redlines for a coalition?
I think they might have mentioned something about another referendum. I dunno, I’ve not watched the news since some time in 2017. [not serious]
A potato
It’s silent, damp and comes from an allotment. It’s basically Jeremy Corbyn but wearing a more stylish jacket.
🤣
Ah yes their policy of “revoke” apart from its not really revoke since they wont be in the position to do so and therefore the policy is, what, exactly? What will be their redlines for a coalition?
If enough vote for them they won’t be in a coalition..
Stop being so binary....😉
I think they might have mentioned something about another referendum.
Awesome. So what is in this referendum? What are they proposing as the choices.
Where is this ultra clear policy stating exactly what their plans are.
What are the chances of them ****ing it up as badly as their last referendum in coalition?
If you’re asking ‘If there is a coalition what will the referendum leave question be’, I suppose the answer is, ‘whatever the largest party says it will be’, or pretty close to that.
Ah yes their policy of “revoke” apart from its not really revoke since they wont be in the position to do so
~50pc of the population voted Remain so that's a massive pool of votes going the LibDems way so I wouldn't bet against them winning outright. Plus the leave vote is split at least two ways - arguably 4.
If they *don't* win outright I'm still assuming they will be far more 'remainey' than all the other parties.
The message from the bunker is that they're going to ignore the results of the polls and the EU and local elections, where former labour voters defected, en masse, to the Lb Dems. Come a general election all those voters that deserted them will come back to the fold and vote for the beardy messiah.
I'd imagine that that approach - which in no way could be considered arrogant, lazy and complacent - will definitely increase the labour party's appeal and encourage even more people to vote for them
Where is this ultra clear policy stating exactly what their plans are.
'Vote for a leave party because the back up plan of the remain party isn't clear' seems a very bad idea to me!
Plus it applies equally to both the main parties as well because they are highly likely to fail to win an outright majority. None of the parties will spell out a coalition position.
Thinking aloud: All Boris cares about is winning so he might well go for a coalition with the Libs, revoke on day one and hope everyone's forgotten in 5 years time. (Osbourne supported him because he thought Boris was the only candidate wacky enough to just revoke and try to style it out!) Ditto Labour, they just need Breix in the past, they really don't care with way it goes, they could do the same, revoke on day one and hope everyone's forgotten in 5 years time.
‘Vote for a leave party because the back up plan of the remain party isn’t clear’ seems a very bad idea to me!
I think you are confusing "hold second referendum party" with "leave party".
This “hold second referendum party” ... would that be the party who's leader won't commit to campaigning for remain in such a referendum, opting instead to negotiate a red unicorns Brexit, then potentially campaign against it?
Or maybe, in the hugely unlikely event of him having to deliver that, he's just planning another extended 6 week holiday like during the last referendum campaign?
not that he's been any more visible since.
A cynic might think he wanted Brexit all along and was just happy to sit back and watch it unfold, chipping in occasionally to give it a helping hand when any article 50's needed triggering or any customs union or single market memberships needed rejecting?
would that be the party
It would be the party who currently offer the only feasible and practical route to stopping brexit. The longer remainers deny this simple fact, the more chance we'll crash out with no deal. Are remainers really going to put their dislike of Corbyn above their dislike of brexit? Time to act like grown ups and put an end to the spoilt toddler acts.
A cynic might think he wanted Brexit all along and was just happy to sit back and watch it unfold, chipping in occasionally to give it a helping hand when any article 50’s needed triggering or any customs union or single market memberships needed rejecting?
So what you're saying is he would bring all this trouble/lack of popularity on himself because he wanted Brexit?
You're having a laugh.
When your electorate is split, your party is split and your leave seats sit in such critical voting areas - what would Binners have done? Correct there is no easy answer.
Which us why there is no easy answer.
The Tory vote was also “split” as regard Brexit… but they’ve sought to gain more new voters than they lose old ones. Labour hasn’t done the same. It has just watched voters turn away from them without successfully doing anything to win over many new voters.
They’ve done enough to win my vote by promising a referendum where we can vote to stop Brexit, but most voters still think Labour is confused, weak and untrustworthy as regards Brexit. And that is absolutely on the Leader.
When your electorate is split, your party is split and your leave seats sit in such critical voting areas – what would Binners have done? Correct there is no easy answer.
Agree, but a better strategy could have been used than putting out a not very clear strategy that keeps changing.
The average voter is not very bright and struggles to keep up with what is going on without policies and strategies continually changing. Corbyn should have jumped onto the propaganda bandwagon and fought that way with very simple repeated messages as he would have got the attention required and people may have got a clue what the Labour party would do.
As for what would Binners have done, he would be on Google images searching for more hilarious Monty Python images.
Always room for more Monty Python images. Binners doesn’t lead one of our big two political parties, he doesn’t have to be up to the job of defeating Johnson, of winning seats, or of leading the country, he doesn’t have to have any answers… he just has to point out, that after, what, 4 years, most of the country don’t think Corbyn can do any of those things well either.
Indeed.
He’s just made one of his rare TV appearances. The BBC has managed to track him down to wherever he was hiding today. He made a brief, anodyne, utterly vacuous comment, while wearing a high vis tabard
For all the passion, authority and presence he commanded, if you’d have flicked the news on that point you’d have thought they were doing a vox pop with a passing fork lift truck driver who looks like he should have retired a good few years ago
We’re at a critical point of the Brexit process, in unprecedented times, with a general election imminent and the Brexit deadline looming, and the leader of the opposition went through the motions on the BBC as quickly as possible while looking visibly like he couldn’t really be arsed and it was all a bit of a chore.
He’s a waste of *ing space!
I can’t help thinking what would be happening if you had a leader worth calling that without snorting with derision, with someone like Alastair Campbell in the background.
They’d be absolutely all *ing over Joris Bohnson 24/7
Instead...
Standard Grandad
Time to act like grown ups and put an end to the spoilt toddler acts.
I agree - the sooner Grandad is gone the better!
I cannot see why the least popular, most ineffectual leader of the opposition in generations isn’t a natural choice myself.
Binners doesn’t lead one of our big two political parties, he doesn’t have to be up to the job of defeating Johnson, of winning seats, or of leading the country, he doesn’t have to have any answers
Don't agree at all. It is fine to criticise but you should at least have some ideas and if not maybe admit that he is in a no win situation rather than just repeat magic grandad, 6th formers and again those hilarious Monty Python images.
I’ll tell you what... just give me a few years sat on this fence and I’ll get back to you with some policy proposals in 2022.
Long game...!
I can’t help thinking what would be happening if you had a leader worth calling that without snorting with derision, with someone like Alastair Campbell in the background.
Who is this person and have you proposed them for a leadership contest? Obviously that would require you to join the Labour Party, rather than heckling from the sidelines.
Kerley, Kelvin and Kimbers - gets quite tricky keeping you three apart!
Binners doesn’t lead one of our big two political parties, he doesn’t have to be up to the job of defeating Johnson, of winning seats, or of leading the country, he doesn’t have to have any answers
That's not the context I'm looking for - I'm suggesting that Corbyn has always been in a tricky situation. Binners doesn't recognise this in any way shape or form.
He just thinks there's a straight forward answer without a downside
There ain't.
Turning up every now and then might be a good place to start...
#wheresjeremy?
There ain’t.
Well, corbyn clearly doesn’t have the answer.
Binners doesn’t have to, it’s not his job.
Binners doesn’t have to, it’s not his job.
Indeed, but failing to propose any kind of alternative makes it look like he can't think of one. Still, it doesn't matter too much to a Lib Dem supporter.
He’s probably given up posting alternatives. I just about have. The true believers don’t even want to listen to those of us that voted for Corbyn’s Labour in 2017, and intend to do the same in the upcoming election. They (you) will never listen to those that see Labour under Corbyn as dead or dying.
They (you) will never listen to those that see Labour under Corbyn as dead or dying.
The problem is that most of the Corbyn haters, to use a work bullshit-bingo phrase, only present problems and not solutions. It's all very well going on an on about how everything's shit, but propose a realistic alternative that hasn't been tried yet. And then do it! I'm not talking about people on here BTW, but labour MPs who have spent the last 4 years sniping but fail to put their money where their mouths are.
Much as I disagreed with Owen Smith, he at least had the balls to try something. The rest of them spend their time on the news programmes or even worse briefing broadsheet journos about PLP meetings. If they don't want Corbyn, present a better option and persuade the membership, and most of all stop feeling bloody sorry for themselves.
Forget about Corbyn haters in parliament, there aren’t enough of us voters who will tolerate Corbyn, or a party putting off having a position on Brexit ‘till after a future General Election. Wakey wakey.
Binners suggested BUrnham - a brexiteer and racist
No alternative leader could square the circle of 1/3 of the PLP want brexit for one reason or another, leave votes are critical to labour in northern towns, Urban labour voters are remainers, the whole power of the press is used to assassinate any labour leader.
Burnham is a weather vane politician. Utterly untrustworthy. Working well as Manchester major though, which surprises me.
Still doesn’t change the fact that under Corbyn Labour is losing, and we’re all saddled with the millstone of Brexit around our collective necks.
or a party putting off having a position on Brexit
They're the only party promising a second ref. You may not agree but that is a position, and it's very simple, so please don't pretend it's not. The main people who need to wake up are people who think voting for the lib dems will prevent brexit.
A referendum is a policy I support. But the party is officially agnostic on Brexit ‘till after the election. There is no party position on Brexit, because of Corbyn and his sing-song useful idiots. Good luck getting enough people to vote for ‘whatever’.
There is no party position on Brexit
For the very reasons that some of us repeatedly illustrate which the Corbyn-haters on here are completely dismissive of, or wilfully blind to. Labour policy is a function of the fact that it's voters, members, and MPs are split on the issue. The fact that the labour party is still together, and for the most part united, is all the confirmation you need that the policy is the right one. Without it, labour would either be in complete chaos or split into two parties, which would give Johnson a completely free run to do whatever he wants, which he can't because he's lost every vote since he became PM. And yet the Corbyn haters say there is no effective opposition. If you judge it on govt defeats in the HOC, there's never been a more successful opposition in history.
Blah, blah… ‘Corbyn Haters’, blah blah.
Lost election.
No Deal Brexit.
Five years of Johnson as PM.
Everyone else’s fault.
Fingers in ears.
Corbyn is our man.
United [ignoring everyone who has left].
How dare anyone vote for anyone else.
Here’s to five more years of successful opposition.
Kelvin answer me one question. If labour had come down on one side of the brexit divide do you think they would still be functioning as a single party?
I think they would have lost MPs and members.
Which they have anyway.
Yes, they would have probably lost more.
Sod the party, there is a country to serve.
I think they would have lost MPs and members.
Which they have anyway.
Yes, they would have probably lost more.
So you admit they would be in a weaker position than they are now?
Sod the party, there is a country to serve.
That's a very naive viewpoint. You can't serve the country unless the party is united and acting as much as possible as a contigious unit. Labour have done much better at that than anyone expected, and the end result has been the defeat of the Johnson govt in every vote. And yet you say they're not serving the country?
If there was a leadership election today, Corbyn would win.
If there was a general election today, Labour would lose, because of Corbyn.
Obsession with “the party” rather than the country will result in permanent opposition.
I’m still voting for Labour, and Corbyn, though.
You can’t put me off, so stop trying.
Why not try working on convincing other people to vote Labour.
Still doesn’t change the fact that under Corbyn Labour is losing
And we still don't know what effect a different leader would have had or where Labour would stand in the polls if a different strategy had been taken.
You can guess, I can guess but nobody knows. They may have even got the best result going hard Brexit. If they had done that and been winning in the polls would you be applauding Corbyn?
They may have gone revoke A50 and be losing even more than now. If they had done that would you be applauding Corbyn?
What could he have done (with proof of how it would have worked out) that you, Binners etc,. would have been happy with?
I know a remainer in a lib/ con marginal seat that voted Tory to stop Corbyn.
He really isn't liked .
If he was more remain I would vote for him. The country is a mess due to the Tories. We need to do something different.
For me though brexit is the battle we need to win right now.
Edit. Once this is over I'll be voting green.
I can only judge him on what he has done. And what he has done is turned away voters despite the governing party ruining the country.
a brexiteer
as is Corbyn, so what is your point ?
They may have gone revoke A50 and be losing even more than now. If they had done that would you be applauding Corbyn?
YES!!! That.
A moderate capable leader with a decent approval rating combined with a revoke policy from day one and Labour would have cleaned up (in 2017 or this time) and this would all have been over with a vast number of people applauding. (Including some EU undecideds and tame Brexiteers who just want this over one way or another as fast as possible.)
There was no credible remain option in 2017, if Labour with a decent leaded had chosen that route they'd have hoovered up votes like crazy.
...but that wouldn't suit momentum/Corbyn/Abbot/MacDonnel because you can't have real socialism within the EU and Corbyn's wing of the party won't had over to a moderate leadership.
I'm not saying that's wrong, in their terms they're doing exactly the right thing, but I'm saying people *would* be applauding if they'd done it.
thing about Corbyn is that, even if some of his ideas are worthy, an increasing number of people don't trust him after witnessing him effectively misleading people over a number of issues - everyone jumping on statements about labour wanting to be in the customs union, whereas he was careful to say "a customs union" and not correcting the misconception, letting people believe that he was going to cancel all student debt because he was on a wave of popularity at the time, denying ever meeting any IRA, etc.
Add that to the general discontent and distrust of politicians/the establishment that is prevalent now and he needs to go.
Johnson is popular because people are believing his commitment to try to do what he said he would do.
What could he have done (with proof of how it would have worked out) that you, Binners etc,. would have been happy with?
I think that Jeremy should have displayed more clear leadership in the run up to the referendum. Whether it was to Leave or to Remain, then at least people would have known exactly what Jeremy stood for. With a clear position pre-referendum, he could have continued with that position post referendum.
None of the leading Brexiteer politicians have displayed such a confusing stance over what they want or don't want. They and their supporters know exactly where they stand and this is the type of leadership people appear to want. Even Boris, once he decided he was a Brexiteer has stuck to his guns and made his position crystal clear to his apparently ever growing support.
he is in a no win situation
That much is certainly true!
Sod the party, there is a country to serve.
That would be the equally split country, right?
As a politician, you can’t ‘follow’ an equally split country, you have to propose the way forward.
but I’m saying people *would* be applauding if they’d done it.
No they wouldn't. They would have crucified him as an anti-democrat, soviet wanabee dictator, and you would have been leading the howls of outrage.
you have to propose the way forward.
He is. He's the only leader interested in doing the difficult task of bringing the two sides back together and finding common ground, rather than jumping on a vote-winning leave or remain bandwagon.
He can’t lead. That’s his major issue. Hence the constant radio silence. He doesn’t even understand the qualities required for leadership, let alone possess them.
In his head, he’s still a backbencher. In fact, to quote Malcolm Tucker “you’re so backbench, you’re out by the bins”
He’s the only leader interested in doing the difficult task of bringing the two sides back together and finding common ground
He’s not looking for a common ground, he’s been busy crushing all compromises possible put forward by his own MPs. He wants hard Brexit, and has pushed aside anyone else in his party attempting to either facilitate a soft Brexit, and, until very recently, anyone proposing that the public get a vote that might stop hard Brexit. What is the ‘common ground’ he has been finding? Set it out for us… what is he doing to facilitate the ‘difficult task’ of ‘bringing the two sides back together’…? Ignoring the problem, and can kicking ‘till it’s over and he/we/they can move one? Does that look to be working? He’s being dragged glacially into doing and saying anything of substance… word by painful word.
No they wouldn’t. They would have crucified him as an anti-democrat, soviet wanabee dictator, and
50pc of people would have. But their votes would have been split amongst all other parties. The other 50pc would have jumped at the chance to vote for a remain party and be been far less concerned about ignoring the referendum result which was purely advisory.
Anyway, people are already crucifying a second referendum as being anti-democratic so the net difference is zero..
you would have been leading the howls of outrage.
No I wouldn't. I was saying before the referendum that referendums are stupid and in a representative democracy we should be voting for people who carry out policy, not directly for policy for all the obvious reasons. Nothing I've seen since then has changed my mind and I'm strongly against a second referendum for all the same reasons plus some more!
rather than jumping on a vote-winning leave or remain bandwagon.
You accept it would be a vote winner. Good.
He can’t lead.
I think you have a different idea of what leadership should be than I do. Which is valid, there are at least two schools of thought.
Go to Guardian live page to see a great speech by Corbyn setting out Labours priorities
OOB - so yuo are against a second ref - that means a no deal brexit. The only way to stop a no deal long term is a second ref. There is no other route with legitimacy