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Ah, I know what action to take when that emoji starts turning up in someone’s replies.
kelvin
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😆Ah, I know what action to take when that emoji starts turning up in someone’s replies.
Continue to put your fingers in your ears, and shout delay delay delay and pretend youse aren't shit scared about how England will vote in a referendum?
Trust in your fellow compatriots...
I support a referendum. The way you are engaging in this thread looks like basic trolling. Apologies if I have you wrong.
Who’s going to campaign for a new leave vote?
You mean besides the people who really want to leave, the Sun, the Mail, the Times, the Telegraph, the Spectator, the ERG, the Brexit Party, UKIP, half of the Conservative Party, the DUP, the Express, the dodgy billionaires, the tax exiles, the racists, the fruitloops and the people with legitimate concerns about immigration?
Dunno.
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party if they are defeated this time round?
kelvin
Subscriber
I support a referendum. The way you are engaging in this thread looks like basic trolling. Apologies if I have you wrong.
More just pissed off with it all.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
I’m voting Labour. Backing a referendum was all that was needed to win me back, because on other issues Labour’s policies are a much better fit for me than those of the other UK parties. Not sure why you think offering an EU referendum ends the debate though. It’s just an agreed event… it doesn’t set out what a Labour government would seek to achieve. If you want to be PM, people will examine your words and intentions very intently. If we stop doing so, democracy falls apart quite quickly. “My intentions as PM don’t matter” denies voters agency.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
Pretty much what Owen Jones said in the Observer yesterday. I think when it comes down to it the hatred of Corbyn is stronger the hatred of brexit, which I find very weird.
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party if they are defeated this time round?
I don't think it would be 'let's do all this again'. It would be 'let's carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for'...
You can honestly see the tories setting themselves up as the lets do all this again party
I really wouldnt rule it out. Remember they have purged the strongest remainders and Johnson seems a major fan of doubling down on his mistakes.
Interesting watching the brexit debate at the labour conference this afternoon. In the conference hall there's clearly a majority in favour of Corbyn's position and against all out remain. Think he's heading for another victory.
Also apparently that there's going to be a mass walkout tomorrow for Tom Watson's speech. That'll be interesting.
I don’t think it would be ‘let’s do all this again’. It would be ‘let’s carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for’…
Assuming that happens(it won't), lets deal with it if it does happen.
It has no bearing on what is happening right now though.
Who’s going to campaign for a new leave vote?
You mean besides the people who really want to leave, the Sun, the Mail, the Times, the Telegraph, the Spectator, the ERG, the Brexit Party, UKIP, half of the Conservative Party, the DUP, the Express, the dodgy billionaires, the tax exiles, the racists, the fruitloops and the people with legitimate concerns about immigration?
Dunno.
As I understand it, if we revoke we cannot instigate A50 for another 10 years. Of course the Nutters will call this, oh I don't know, Prison, Dictatorship or whatever.
It might go away, without a realistic chance of leaving for a decade the Brexit party Ltd will lose it's funding, but the papers will still stir, there will be calls to 'just hard brexit' in other words, do what the papers wanted all alone, tear up our agreements with the EU, and 'bloody well' tell them to do something.
Although, I think for the most part it's over, I'm sure there are plenty of 18 year old Hard Brexiteers out there, but most aren't, I know there are a lot of older remainers (most of the people who ere directly involed in WW2 and don't just see it as pornography) but for the most part Leavers are dying and remainers are reaching voting age.
The 90% of us in the middle (on both side) would really like to put the whole idea to bed for a bit. Someone in No10 will pretend to get tough with the EU, or work closer with them, the main parties might actually bother to fight EU elections and we might just look back at this as a stupid idea dreamt up by fat old men looking to make a fortune at our expense.
Think he’s heading for another victory.
The fudge will be probably be supported.
It’s good enough for my vote.
It isn’t good clear enough to win.
It doesn’t represent the wishes of members either, does it. It’ll only pass with union votes, you can bet safely on that.
Also apparently that there’s going to be a mass walkout tomorrow for Tom Watson’s speech.
Insert sixth form comment here.
Corbyn has offered the route out, take it.
He's offered two diametrically opposed routes. One of which could be catastrophic and nobody can predict which we'd be taking.
I don’t think it would be ‘let’s do all this again’. It would be ‘let’s carry on to get the rightful unicorn Brexit that we want/deserve/need/voted for’…
Agree. ...and they didn't want to do it last time, UKIP forced them to by threatening to take 1/3 of their votes. That situation can/will happen again and is already happening in the upcoming election.
Aye lib dems are going to sweep up eh?
48pc of people voted remain in the Referendum. The leave vote is split between Brexit Party and Tories, the remain vote is going exclusively to the libdems. The whole country is a total marginal, thanks to Brexit there are no safe seats. The lib dems could win outright, and are very likely to hold the balance of power. Having campaigned on a remain ticket they're going to have a remain mandate that can stop brexit if they hold the balance of power. If they make a concession it will only be as far as a referendum so their worst case is the same as the other parties best case. Yes, the lib dems are going to do incredibly well. (Unless Brexit happens before the election in some form in which case normal politics will resume and their fox will be shot.)
As I understand it, if we revoke we cannot instigate A50 for another 10 years.
I don't think there are any rules against invoking Art 50 a second time but even if there are, you can still leave. Just change your laws with a Great Repeal Act and stop paying the EU. You're out. David Owen and Nigel Lawson advocate that from day one and spelled it out in a letter. Given how things have gone we can see why!
notice how few Europeans are on this forum, wasting working time…
I'm a European, as I'm sure the majority of posters on here also are. Regardless of Brexit connotations, the UK is still a European country.
If you mean "mainland Europeans" then perhaps they're over on dassingletrackworld.de or some such forum that isn't based on the English language? Have you checked?
I am in mainland Europe and the only reason I can't post all day long is the 4g signal is sht in my office.
Can't use work network.
Assuming that happens(it won’t), lets deal with it if it does happen.
Voting for a 50/50 chance of leaving, and then if that 50/50 goes the right way dealing with the next hurdle.
If your best case scenario is something so tricky you don't wan't to think about right now just avoid those hurdles and vote for the party that is offering what you want right now.
Libdems: Best case remain, worst case referendum.
Labour: Best case win referendum and a whole new squabble, worst case leave.
I can forgive Cameron betting the farm on a referendum, he had no idea losing was a likely outcome. ...anyone advocating a referendum now knows how the film is likely to end.
the remain vote is going exclusively to the libdems.
They'll be doing well to get 30-40 seats, they won't get more. But you crack on with your fantasies.
I see. You must be assuming you’ll be in the lucky 80% that isn’t instantly made redundant?
Precisely. Because a 20 percent drop in hours worked without a 20 percent increase in productivity, means a 20 percent reduction in GDP, tax for the chancellor etc etc and a sudden loss of profitability of many SMEs and resultant overnight closures. It doesn’t matter if they still keep paying Faz more, the reality is the UK is producing less under that scenario.
DazHs flippancy on that highlights how dangerous economic illiteracy amongst the public is. Luckily labour gave themselves a decade to implement it so it’s a policy that firstly, they know they will never have to implement as they won’t get in anytime soon and secondly - they can kick the can down the road in terms of that promise once in office.
More red unicorns.
Counting votes is such a waste of time… just take the mood in the room and decide if it’s with you.
There were clearly more hands up for the pro-Corbyn motions. Even I could tell that by watching on the telly.
What do we want?
Constructive ambiguity!
When do we want it?
Until after the election!
Well Len, Seamus & Corbyn have kicked the can down the road once again
Jo Swinson must be chuckling !
There were clearly more hands up for the pro-Corbyn motions. Even I could tell that by watching on the telly.
Well, that’s okay then, no reason at all we you might not be a fair judge of that.
Now they can promise a 20 hour week, they will never be in power.
They clearly thought that 14% they polled in the EU elections was looking a bit high
What will tomorrow bring? Dianne Abbott promising every household a new puppy and a week in Benidorm?
I think Peston is getting a little bit carried away there.
Now, are parliamentary candidates supposed to stick to a “I’ll tell you what I think after the election” line, or can they openly say what they think should happen about Brexit, without being charged with being ‘disloyal’? Same for current MPs and front benchers?
There will be a further loss of members and (polled) voters now. I can’t see today resulting in anything else.
20% less hours means that the NHS will need 40-50k more doctors in ten years time.
As it takes about that long to train a doctor from the point they enter uni Labour have just committed the NHS to a unprecedented disaster in patient wait times and clinical outcomes. Even if the capacity was there to train the extra numbers required there wouldn’t be enough time to supervise their work. Same with teachers, police, firefighters - and all of this will apparently not cost any more - which can only mean pay cuts all round.
The policy was announced as taking 10 years to implement, so that fits in with your training point @cheddarchallenged. No mention of immigration policy though… that would also be key to that timescale being realistic or not.
Thank you for pointing out that a shorter working week may actually result in more people working, not fewer. It could also result in higher wage bills, not lower, true, but that’s not in isolation… more workers also means more consumers and more tax payers.
In France the change from 37.5 hours to 35 did not create the extra jobs the gov was hoping it would.
And according to figures very low number of unemployed people in the UK.
20% less hours means that the NHS will need 40-50k more doctors in ten years time.
It's not as simple as that.
Work-related cumulative injuries, stress etc and their comorbidities account for a large amount of the NHS' workload. If the hours individuals within the workforce as a whole have to work are reduced, then it is quite reasonable to suggest that there could well be a reduction in demand on NHS services.
It's well documented that a poor work/life balance is one of the leading causes of in-work stress and then poor health in later life.
And according to figures very low number of unemployed people in the UK.
Ah, the benefit of including zero hour contracted individuals in 'employment' figures, as well as a few other statistical fudges the current government loves to use to massage the numbers.
Lies, damned lies and statistics.
I think Peston is getting a little bit carried away there.
Hardly a surprise. His twitter and facebook feeds are a stream of speculative gossip which almost always turns out to be wrong. He's a shit-stirrer of the highest order. How he ever got to be a political editor is bizarre.
20% less hours means that the NHS will need 40-50k more doctors in ten years time.
You're right, we should continue working doctors to death with 70 hour weeks. If only we had the work eithic of the US, 12 hour days and two weeks holiday a year we'd all be a lot happier.
Absolutely. Peston is cut from the same cloth as Marr. Always looking for a bit of drama. Even make it up if it's not there. Shoddy journalism.
How many times did he cite the 1922 committee...
The Marr interview with Corbyn was an embarrassment from a journalistic point of view.
Counting votes is such a waste of time… just take the mood in the room and decide if it’s with you.
I would say it's a magnitude more democratic than any of the other parties positions.
I would say it’s a magnitude more democratic than any of the other parties positions.
What do you mean? Parties are setting out their positions, asking their members* to vote on them, and come the election will ask us to vote for them. Or are you referring to the Conservative and Brexit parties…? They’re still very much pay for policy.
[*or in most cases, conference attendees, which is only a subset of members, admittedly.]
I can forgive Cameron betting the farm on a referendum, he had no idea losing was a likely outcome
You what, now? It was literally one of two options on the ballot. He had no business ceding the decision making to the electorate as the past 3 years have shown. He threw a country under the bus to save a party. He's a grade A ****wit.
I think Peston had a point with the Tweet.
Corbyn's inner circle had made a point of turning yesterdays vote into what was effectively a loyalty pledge to the leadership.
Whether you think the policy is right or not, I think the optics of yesterday were absolutely terrible. But thats one thing Corbyn and his team are particularly bad at. They play to their (very narrow) gallery, and don't seem to care what it looks like to those who aren't believers (like swing voters in marginal seats that labour would need to win)
The sight of the Corbynites in the hall cheering and chanting that bloody awful 'Ooooooo Jeremy Corbyn' as they wildly celebrated using the union block vote and some dubious tactics to instigate a policy opposed by 80% of the membership, and the 'Glorious Leader' soaking up the adulation is not a good look at all.
It didn't look like 'restoring democracy to the members' to me. It looked like the opposite. A narrow clique imposing its will by any means possible
It bore all the hallmarks of the Militant Tendency in the '80s. And that is most definitely not a vote winner. Its an absolute gift to the right-wing press and it as good as wrote their 'look at this bunch of communists' headlines for them.
The Lib Dems will be the real winners from yesterday. A lot of more moderate, remain-inclined labour voters will, I'm sure, view yesterday as the final straw.
I'm quite surprised there haven't been any MPs defecting yet. There must be some who are thinking about it?
You conveniently forget binners that almost half the PLP want brexit for various resons so a referendum pledge is the best yo are going to get.
Have you got any stats to back that assertion up Uncle Jezza? Because I don't believe its anywhere near that figure.
Corbyn and those around him want Brexit. And it looks like theirs is the only opinion that seems to count.
A serious question to the Corbynites, because I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on this...
How do you think those scenes in the conference hall played out yesterday? Do you think that's what most peoples vision of a party of government looks like?
Corbyn and those around him want Brexit. And it looks like theirs is the only opinion that seems to count
What's the issue? We all get a vote if they're elected.
Stop talking guff.
How do you think those scenes in the conference hall played out yesterday? Do you think that’s what most peoples vision of a party of government looks like?
Is that worse than Jo Swinson just doing what the hell she wants?
The answer is no.
Is that worse than Jo Swinson just doing what the hell she wants?
Ah yes... the standard "but... but... Jo Swinson!!!" answer
You forgot to call me a yellow Tory. You're slacking, comrade. 😉
Miss Swinson does seem to be public enemy number two, just behind Tom Watson.
I'll ask again...
How do you think those scenes in the conference hall played out yesterday? Do you think that’s what most peoples vision of a party of government looks like?
Because, to me, all that was missing was Derek Hatton. All the other tick-box Militant elements were there. It looked like a labour conference from 1984. And they looked about as electable. It certainly didn't look like our next government. It looked like a rabble.
Is that worse than Jo Swinson just doing what the hell she wants?
What on earth does that mean?
If you are referring to the revoke position… their conference voted for it… their members want it… six million people signed a petition calling for it… and it will only happen if there is a huge surge to the party openly and clearly proposing it and they get to form a majority government.
Sadly, I agree with Binners, yesterday’s fun will result in voters thinking “can we trust them if they get to form a government”, if they’ll play these games to keep Lexit alive. And if you want to allay fears that the party has become a personality cult… then that wasn’t the way.
Normally I’m against any politician sitting on the fence in a debate
However
This is 1 case where I think it may actually play out quite well.
Labour know deep down that they have a split among supporters between leave and remain , did so at the referendum and still do.
The % figure may have changed but the split still exists and by stating support for a “ confirmatory “ referendum they make sure they do not alienate either section.
The Tories have a similar split but have now gone all out leave and thus managed to alienate a large proportion of voters who may well switch to the Lib Dem’s on the strength of their Remain pledge, and thus the party whose vote holds up best gets to make the next government ( albeit a probable minority one )
Corbyn and those around him want Brexit. And it looks like theirs is the only opinion that seems to count.
Yes, that's why they're committed to leaving without offering us a vote.
Oh.
Conservative minority government it is then @Fatoldgit. Wonderful. We’ll be back to where we are.
their conference voted for it… their members want it… six million people signed a petition calling for it…
This.
Apart from the members, the MPS, the leadership and 48 million voters nobody wants to Remain. 🙂 It's a wildly popular policy and that's reflected in the polls with Brexit Party, Con, Lab, LibDems pretty much neck and neck on ~20pc if the election is held before Brexit happens. It's hoovered up Lab and Con remainers.
The only drawback is if Brexit happens before an election which shoots the libdem fox.
and they get to form a majority government.
so thats a almost certainly a no and what exactly are they proposing as the alternatives? What is their proposal around the referendum choices?
The lib dems by making a big song and dance about something which is rather unlikely to happen are dodging the actual hard question.
It is only fair to those who voted to leave (plus prudent) to try and get the best possible deal on the table as an alternative to remain. Obviously the definition of best deal will vary but it will be impossible to please all.
Referendum (if it happens) will be on the current Withdrawal Agreement with a fluffed up political declaration. Anything else, deal/arrangement wise, is for discussion after we’ve left. I’d rather it was a fully fleshed out UK plan for what we replace membership with vs keeping membership… but that is never going to happen… it just isn’t in the interests of anyone trying to win a vote to Leave to have something specific and open to scrutiny.
[edit - wrong thread for this]
The sight of the Corbynites in the hall cheering and chanting that bloody awful ‘Ooooooo Jeremy Corbyn’ as they wildly celebrated using the union block vote and some dubious tactics
Except they didn't use the union block vote. You do know that don't you? They didn't need it as the CLPs voted to support the NEC motions. And what dubious tactics? Mobilising your supporters to back you? What's dubious about that? It's a vote, that's how they work. It's all very well saying 80% of the party support remain but if they don't bother to turn up to vote then they won't get what they want.
Except they didn’t use the union block vote.
From todays Guardian
We don’t know what the exact voting figures were, and whether Corbyn would have won the votes without the support of the unions. The unions have 50% of the vote at conference and most of them were opposed to the “back remain now” composite 13.
Anyway... the sight of the Peoples Front of Judea shouting down Tom Watson should write tomorrows Daily Heil and Torygraph headlines for them, all nicely gift-wrapped. Good work all involved. Another massive vote-winner that'll certainly have swing voters in key marginals convinced that the Labour party is really the way forward
I'll try asking the Corbynites yet again, shall I?
How do you think those scenes in the conference hall played out yesterday? And if they shout down or walk out on Tom Watson today? Do you think that’s what most peoples vision of a party of government looks like? Or do you think, as I do, that everyone will just immediately think...
The daft Chair with glasses getting the vote wrong in the conference yesterday ffs! Somebody should have just said take the vote again though.
Labours Brexit policy is the best one- Yannis Varafoukis was good on Newsnight last night saying as much.
Lib Dems wont win a majority. Remainers need a way to get to remain- the best way is a referendum.
NB I think the Lib Dems are right to go for remain- its stops them having to answer the "what would be your leave deal?" question that is going to be difficult for Labour.
OOB - around half of the PLP want brexit for a variety of reasons. 70+ on the right and a dozen or two on the left plus a few outright racists
Around 1/3 of labour voters want brexit. A referendum on a reform and remain or leave with a deal without mauys red lines is the only way to square this
On lib dems -Swinson announces policy and then the conference backs it. In the labour conference the membership dictates policy
tories - the leadership dictates policy
which is more democratic?
Lib Dems wont win a majority. Remainers need a way to get to remain- the best way is a referendum.
Lib Dems could easily win a majority because of the remain policy as the polls show. Makes sense since no remainer is going to vote for a party where there's a 50pc possibility of leaving or in the case of the Cons a near 100pc chance - the remain votes are all going to the libdems. But even if the libdems fail to get a majority there's a high likelihood they'll be in some kind of arrangement with the winning party and without lib dem votes no Brexit.
A Referendum solves nothing unless leave win. To remain we need an actual government to be elected with a remain mandate, or a party with a remain mandate to hold the balance of power. Anything else puts us back where we are in an almighty 50/50 squabble.
Remain have a better chance now that ever because the leave vote is split between Con and Brexit Party, this is the chance and Remainers know that.
OOB – around half of the PLP want brexit for a variety of reasons.
Yes, that's why the remainer votes will go to the libdems in the forthcoming election.
This is turning into an EU thread… with the Labour conference ongoing there’s plenty more to talk about…
https://twitter.com/freedland/status/1176236079294373891?s=21
https://twitter.com/freedland/status/1176236084365352960?s=21
https://twitter.com/freedland/status/1176236087649476608?s=21
https://twitter.com/freedland/status/1176236092326055936?s=21
Jeremy Corbyn takes to the stage at Labour conference to announce the Supreme Court ruling, demand the immediate recall of Parliament and ask PM "to consider his position and become the shortest-serving Prime Minister there's ever been". Huge ovation from the hall.
...an immediate recall of parliment gives Boris time to create legislation to have an election before the 31st.
Good news for libdems.
Li9b dems are never going to have a majority and my bet is they end up with less MPs than they have now. Certainly less than they did before Clegg and the coalition.
Johnson cannot legislate for an election - all routes to that are blocked.
Li9b dems are never going to have a majority and my bet is they end up with less MPs than they have now.
They may have more, but most of them will be tories.
What puzzles me is that thanks to their revoke article 50 idiocy and their refusal to work with labour in favour of winning remain voters, the success of the lib dems in an election is now inversely proportional to the chances of stopping brexit. There is only one feasible route to stopping brexit, and that's through a labour government, and a second referendum.
What puzzles me is that thanks to their revoke article 50 idiocy and their refusal to work with labour in favour of winning remain voters, the success of the lib dems in an election is now inversely proportional to the chances of stopping brexit. There is only one feasible route to stopping brexit, and that’s through a labour government, and a second referendum.
There will be no “labour government”, and no referendum, unless the LibDems can take seats off of the Conservatives. You have your graphs upside down @dazh.
Sadly, I agree with Binners, yesterday’s fun will result in voters thinking “can we trust them if they get to form a government”,
you meant a few more votors, because a lot of people, including labour votors, think like that now.
Yes, you have further clarified my words perfectly. I’m still voting Labour though… but I think it is harder to persuade others to do so today than it was before this conference.
unless the LibDems can take seats off of the Conservatives
I see little evidence that's what they want to do.
Anyway, Watson's been bumped from the conference agenda. Probably for the best. He gets to avoid a humiliation and Binners can keep his blood pressure at safe levels.
I can't promise you that, mate 😀
Boris has turned out to be a godsend. I bet most of the labour party (all the remaining sane ones, at least) couldn't wait to get this all wrapped up, It's been a car crash since Jon Lansman attempted his drive-by before it had even started.
Grandad can get back to do his 10-second shouty Steptoe bit for YouTube in the commons tomorrow. He enjoys that, bless him. And it goes down well in the common room.
Then it's just waiting to find out when the Labour party get to lose another election
There will be no “labour government”, and no referendum, unless the LibDems can take seats off of the Conservatives.
Assuming Brexit is a big issue for remainers the Lib Dems ought to be taking 33pc of Tory votes and 66pc of Labour votes. How that translates into seats who knows.
The Brexit Party will also be taking votes of the Cons so the leave vote is split.
Cons will be losing votes hand over fist, again, how votes equate to seats is more complex.
There are no safe seats in the UK right now.
unless the LibDems can take seats off of the Conservatives.
The Tory's are specifically targeting leave-orientated, normally-solid-Labour seats in the North to try and compensate for the seats they're already resigned to losing to the Lib Dems.
The Tory's already know they're going to ship loads of seats in more enlightened, affluent, Remain-voting areas in the south east, where more educated metropolitan people are appalled with their transformation into the populist/**** business anti-immigration Brexit Party
Add in all the millions of disillusioned former labour voters who've had it with Brexiteer Magic Grandad and all bets are off. Well... all bets apart fro the 'no overall majority' one. Stick your house on that!
You could quite feasibly end up with four parties all with a similar share of the vote. Then what?
There are no safe seats in the UK right now.
I could list about 50.
I could list about 50.
To be fair, Tory safe seats with massive numbers of Leave leave voters and Lib seats with massive numbers of Remain voters are probably safe. (although even they might find out that (say) all the Leave voters are LibDems and they've alienated the voters they actually needed.)
...but I stick to my original contention, the UK is a 4 way marginal and nobody has the data required to work out where the votes are going.
I could list about 50.
Surely, another dead cert for a bet is that more seats will change hands between parties than any other previous election?
I'm going to stick a tenner on that
You could quite feasibly end up with four parties all with a similar share of the vote. Then what?
Then we'd actually have something near a reprentative government for once!!
Might force the ****ers to actually talk about stuff rather than just slagging each other off all the time.....
You could quite feasibly end up with four parties all with a similar share of the vote. Then what?
Same as always. Under FPTP labour and the tories will have the lions share with the other parties a few dozen each. That's why the libdems need to work with labour if they want to stop brexit. By not doing so they only make the opposite a certainty. Unless they change their tune and swallow their pride then the only way of stopping brexit could be a labour overrall majority.
I think scotroutes is suggesting the SNP will take virtually every Scottish seat, I wouldn't bet against them.
I think scotroutes is suggesting the SNP will take virtually every Scottish seat, I wouldn’t bet against them.
Ahhhh, I see sounds plausible. Plenty of remainers in Scotland, though, and the Brexit fiasco isn't the best advert for separatism. Lots of temptation to vote Libdem.
Same as always. Under FPTP labour and the tories will have the lions share with the other parties a few dozen each.
While that may well have been the case in the past, I doubt very much that'll be the case next time out, due to how seismic the changes have been in our politics over the last few years and how polarised this country now is
I know the leadership of both Labour and the Tory's both complacently assume that their former voters, who defected to the lib Dems and the Brexit party at the EU elections, will obediently return to the fold for a GE
I reckon they'll both be in for a bit of a shock this time out
I really hope youre right Binners, but I still think most people are scared to vote LibDem. I reckon most people just can't comprehend a government that isn't Tory or Labour....