Forum menu
Possibly because Starmer would be seen as a competitor to Corbyn within the Labour Party.
You disagree Lucas would be a good compromise? She’s trustworthy
She’d be top of my list. Common sense would say she would be ideal. No chance of Labour or LibDems backing her though… is there?
Starmer is the candidate that scares none of the horses. Labour don’t feel squeezed out. Pick him. Crack on. Well, unless you think Corbyn would be dead against anyone but himself…
As I said earlier the real issue is that the route to remains is a VONC/A50 extension, then a GE that the 2nd ref parties have to win (taking seats from the Tories) then a 2nd ref.
It's a big call for Tories to not just vote against Johnson, but also their party with a view to it losing the next election. I can't see it making a difference whether it's Corbyn or someone else.
Also, if it's not Corbyn it weakens Labour going into the GE which is an issue if you want a second ref because LDs taking votes of Labour is a best neutral but could help Tories in blue/red marginals
People bang on about the big picture but never quite big enough
What I meant was why is not having a GE bad?
Because without the promise of the new PM being temporary, they'd never agree on one. The whole point is that the new PM is temporary in order to gain the support across parties to win a VONC. It's also a massive compromise from Corbyn to counter fears that he is attempting to use brexit to seize power permanently. The natural solution to all of this is a new election to break the deadlock. Then the people can decide whether they want a party in power which offers a second referendum (labour) and the opportunity to stop brexit, or the tories with their apocalyptic no deal.
Well, unless you think Corbyn would be dead against anyone but himself…
Thing is if Starmer was to be anything but a JC mouth piece he'd be a huge threat to JC's being leader of the Labour Party simply by virtue of public perception, for starters he'd be going into a GE having shown he's capable of achieving consensus in the HoC which a lot of people seriously doubt JC could, even with a significant majority.
If he's seen as just a JC puppet that's worse than JC for everyone else. JC gets credited if all goes well, he's one step removed if it doesn't and you get JC anyway which for various reasons, a lot of MPs vehemently don't want.
So, there’s no one who can be trusted by Labour except Corbyn? Really…?
No one from the labour party has said that at all. Its just Swinson with poor politics and stupid posturing.
I am certain Corbyn would accept another candidate if a concensus one emerged.
You would hope so. I’d like to think the weird “Corbyn is the only way” line was just fan fiction, rather than something firm within the party leadership team… I really hope you are right TJ…
Starmer-S would be a terrific leader (and I hope Momentum get hook-winked and Starmer-S gets it).
...but he's not a suitable Caretaker candidate, it needs a "has-been" or a "never will be" not a direct competitor for Corbyn's job.
No drama there are countless other candidates, and as said up there ^^^^ the Lords is packed full of suitable candidates who pose no threats to the party leaders.
https://order-order.com/2019/08/22/labour-frontbencher-back-ken-clarke-pm/
Oops - not even all of Labour's front bench seem to want Tragic Grandpa to be leader of a "Unity" government.
Because without the promise of the new PM being temporary,
It's a hollow promise, any GoNU prime minister will be serving on borrowed time and relys on a majority vote to prevent a GE. The difficulty if that's corbyn in so much as it requires a promise (or for that matter someone else in Labour) is a VoNC Marks a big change in the ballance of power in Westminster. You can expect deselection dismissals and recalls for some tory rebels at least.
Effectively booting out BJ sees Labour become the biggest voting block in Westminster and the biggest party in all but name. You'd effectively need Labour rebels to remove him via no confidence or a 2/3rd majority for a GE a lot of tories, rebels especially, won't want.
Ian Blackford.
Unlikely to have any effect on the number of Labour or Tory seats in a resultant GE.
Starmer - two issues - he wants to be a future labour leader and this would probably damage his ambitions and the more important he is too inexperienced.
But overall he could well be a good candidate but much better is someone at the other end of their political career
Oops
GF links should always be ignored.
Ian Blackford? He is one who has had his reputation enhanced thru all this nonsense but the most obvious thing about having him would be the apoplexy from both sides of the house.
2/3rd majority for a GE
You do not need this. The normal VONC system can result in a general election if no one can get 1/2 of parliament to back them. It is just that we no have no time for this to play out before we Leave the EU. Once A50 is extended, the house can then force an election just by failing to back anyone to be PM.
I am certain Corbyn would accept another candidate if a concensus one emerged.
He's the bloody leader of the opposition. If he wants this to happen he can suggest a candidate and back them. The others will fall into line or be seen to support Brexit.
The reason he won't is because he's a lifelong Brexiteer and he is loving the Tory party tearing itself apart doing something that will cost them seats and that he wants done. He'd be bloody mad to do anything to interfere with the current trajectory of events.
So, there’s no one who can be trusted by Labour except Corbyn? Really…
I'll assume that's in reply to me. Its not that a labour alternative has to be trusted by Labour, is that you have to be able to sell "why it's not JC it's another labour mp" to the electorate and sell it very quickly, that's a huge ask if that other labour candidate isn't ano hoper and very obviously a sop to the tories.
you have to be able to sell “why it’s not JC it’s another labour mp” to the electorate and sell it very quickly
Explain please… what’s wrong with Labour fighting an election with “the leader that no Tory would back” after someone else did the technical job of getting A50 extended so that election could take place?
the house can then force an election just by failing to back anyone to be PM.
...and one thing we really can rely on the current HOC to do is to fail to agree! 😀 Perhaps the only thing the can be relied on to do.
Sometimes if you lie down in front of an express train it will stop before it goes over the cliff.
More often though you just get squished, even if you are the leader of the opposition.
Its not that a labour alternative has to be trusted by Labour, is that you have to be able to sell “why it’s not JC it’s another labour mp” to the electorate and sell it very quickly,
So your version is Corbyn is effectively forcing Brexit through purely because his career as leader will be damaged if he lets anyone else do the caretaker job. That's pretty cynical. I prefer my guess.
It would not be political suicide for him to step aside for another person as PM in a caretaker government – it would probably play really well as statesman like and selfless.
You can't be serious, this isn't an episode of the West Wing. He'd end up torn apart by his detractors and the media as too weak to lead even a temporary government. I'd bet money it would form the basis of an internal leadership challenge to.
The normal VONC system can result in a general election if no one can get 1/2 of parliament to back them
That's my point, JC can only deliver a GE (as PM) by 2/3rds majority. The house can deliver one by a majority of 1. Who is going to be in a hurry to vote for that in 5 weeks time?
every tory and the dup? If that's even a majority after the rebellion a VonC requires I'd be surprised.
Those tories who rebelled won't be in a hurry to go to the polls unless they're in a staunchly remain seat (think 80+%)
No the only way A JC interim government goes is he resigns as leader/pm or the Labour Party vote him out of office. It would be interesting to see them whip for a VonC against themselves though to fulfil their promise.
fighting an election with “the leader that no Tory would back”
Against the tories (with another new leader since BJ will be gone) pointing out that he's also the leader who robbed "the people of brexit" and didn't back himself to do it? Yeah that'll play well with the red tops.
That’s my point
Sorry @dangeourbrain, I’m not disagreeing with you, I just can’t follow what your point or logic is at all. Please try and explain again…
Nick Boles's take on the altest meeting.
https://twitter.com/NickBoles/status/1164505982266937344
I’d bet money it would form the basis of an internal leadership challenge to.
Of course it would. Corbyn's opponents are desperate for him to stand aside as it gives them all the ammunition they need to remove him. He's not an idiot, which is why he'll never do this, especially as the main benefactors would be tory moderates and their libdem bedfellows. If it's not to be him, the only possible solution is someone who doesn't threaten his leadership of the party and who isn't a tory. Lucas is the only person who remotely fits that description.
Lucas would be ideal… but there is no chance whatsoever of Corbyn allowing that to happen. Zero. Zilch. Would love to be wrong.
Lucas would be ideal…
The greens are pretty euro sceptic: https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html I'd have thought they'd want to play the Corbyn game and get the UK out without taking the blame.
Lucas is closer to Corbyn on most policy (apart from Brexit) than a lot of Labour MPs.
Not that either side would admit it as the 2nd ref parties look to take votes off each other rather than the Tories.
Please try and explain again…
Despite his [proffesed] desire to do so, I don't think JC could deliver a GE.
I simply don't think he'd muster the numbers to back a GE and I don't think you'd get half of parliament to vote him out.
(actually the more I think on it, for all the mention of brexiteer corbyn being happy to pin brexit on the tories, JC would be suddenly finding himself being fitted for that very same suit, especially if he won't call a referendum before a GE, it'd be a hard right brexiter wet dream, all corbyn and the left's fault, 0 majority for his government so he can't deliver a single leftist policy, you can keep him there dangling but boot him out the door the minute the job is done and blame everything on him and point out how, given the chance, he didn't deliver a single manifesto promise)
The greens are pretty euro sceptic:
Very true, but they're pro membership. They think it's flawed but better than the alternative and easier to change from the inside.
Corbyn and Labour will be standing on a 2nd ref manifesto. As will LDs, SNP, Green and PC. They need to win seats off the Tories.
As I said above, legislating before a GE for a second ref to happen after a GE is pointless - if the Tories won they would simply legislate to reverse the 2nd ref legislation
Lucas is closer to Corbyn on most policy (apart from Brexit) than a lot of Labour MPs.
Which is precisely why he will not allow her the limelight of being temporary PM… there is a lot of untapped voting potential out there for the Green Party…
I simply don’t think he’d muster the numbers to back a GE
Any temporary PM only needs to agree an A50 extension, and pass legislation for it… after that an election is unavoidable.
I don’t think you’d get half of parliament to vote him out.
Okay, so I still don’t understand. You think that if Corbyn was temporary PM, and had sorted out an A50 extension, Parliament would force him to stay as PM and would support him in a confidence vote? Including Tories and those who left the Labour Party while he was leader?
Which is precisely why he will not allow her the limelight of being temporary PM… there is a lot of untapped voting potential out there for the Green Party…
And zero downside from nominating Ian Blackford as Labour are already a basket case in Scotland and so couldn't lose any seats.
I’d be happy with him. Why do you think those anti No Deal Tories would be?
if the Tories won they would simply legislate to reverse the 2nd ref legislation
They'd need a decent sized majority to do that but even with one, a bit of canny timing by any outgoing temporary administration would deny them the time to do it.
I also don't think "we don't trust you to get the answer "right" twice" would be a good campaign platform.
... and more votes for the greens makes a Tory victory more likely
And zero downside from nominating Ian Blackford as Labour are already a basket case in Scotland
You are taking the piss, surely?
You dont recall Milliband in the pocket of Salmond. If thats a bit old there was the remake with Corbyn in the pocket of Sturgeon.
The tories would have a field day unless they suddenly found a sense of decency and realised given their dependence on the DUP it would be a tad hypocritical.
So field day it is.
I also don’t think “we don’t trust you to get the answer “right” twice” would be a good campaign platform.
For the Conservative Brexit Party?
Seems to be working out just fine.
They’ll never be a majority for this in the commons… but holding an election and referendum AT THE SAME TIME would make so much sense, and might be the only way to get a long extension out of an exasperated EU. We could well need that… it’s going to be messy here politically for a good while yet…
Parliament would force him to stay as PM and would support him in a confidence vote? Including Tories and those who left the Labour Party while he was leader?
Pretty much yes.
To remove him would need Labour backing.
If the various opinions are to be believed there are a lot of people in the house who'll be out of a job in leave areas when they block brexit. They're both sides of the house.
Tory rebels who voted down their own government can expect a massive kicking at a GE if it follows swiftly on the heels of a VonC unless they're confident their anti no deal stance makes up the numbers for them.
The rest of the tory party will have no leader, BJ can't really stay, they don't want a GE with no leader and their third leadership contest in as many years, their second in 3 months.
Who is genuinely wanting rid of that temporary leader? (this is another reason it has to be JC if it's anyone from the commons in Labour, there's a good chance this is 30months at the helm not 5 weeks)
For the Conservative Brexit Party?
Seems to be working out just fine.
One thing to say you can't have a referendum quite another to say you can't have the referendum that's now scheduled, very different indeed to push that second line when they're going to the voters at the same time.
Also being forced into a 2nd ref actually digs them out of a big hole (which is I think the main reason JC won't do it before an election, as I say I don't think he's a fool, and "well its been planned so we have to give it you now" would play very well for the tories.) the result comes back leave still, all the ammo they need, comes back remain they can be the listening party and maybe scoot the ERG out the door at the same time.
This thread has descended into a ridiculous amount of whataboutery. It also demonstrates that the only viable solutions are simple ones. To my mind there are only two to stop brexit, legislate against or remove Johnson. If the first fails, the second will be necessary, then we'll see who out of the tories and libdems are serious about stopping no deal.
If the first fails, the second will be necessary, then we’ll see who out of the tories and libdems are serious about stopping no deal.
The first has failed without the second. There is no way for the legislation to be put forward without government proposal. There is a single bill due before Parliament in the requisite time frame (eg early September) and its past its amendable stage. (animal rights Bill, 4th September 12.00)
I'm with Dazh - something simple.
The 2nd ref parties need to lock themselves away and come up with a plan in private. Them come out as a united front, not sure it will happen and the pre-talks grandstanding is particularly unhelpful
Nick Boles's letter I posted above demonstrates how in realitly chances of a no-"no deal" scenario are slim to none; if large nubmers of te tories wont vote down Johnson while he is still tryign to get a deal then the VONC will fail, or will be carried too late to prevnet no deal. I don't think the lesisglative approach will work (BJ reported to belive he can ignore that).
Best stockpile more than just sweets for halloween 🙁
BoJo's Conservative Brexit Party has neutered farage and brought the no deal brigade back in to the fold. Labour don't have a cat in hell's chance in any GE. i'm afraid the die is cast. i'd love to be proved wrong, but i'm sorry, i think we're ****ed.
Labour don’t have a cat in hell’s chance in any GE
Don’t be daft. The choice will be a simple one, a no deal brexit or something similar under Boris, or a chance to stop brexit or mitigate its harsher effects under Labour in combination with some pretty radical progressive policies. It won’t be easy, but it’s all to play for. The only realistic option to stop brexit is to avoid a no deal, and then a labour victory in an election, otherwise we’re leaving with or without a deal.
We know you've got a hard on for corbyn Dazh, but there's no way labour will win an election, current polls show cons on 30% and Labour and lib dems in more or less joint second on about 20% each.
A hung parliament is all but guaranteed.
but there’s no way labour will win an election
I guess it depends on whether remainers can get their act together to vote against the tories. If not then we’ll be leaving, probably with no deal. It’s a simple choice.
I guess it depends on whether remainers can get their act together to vote against the tories.
Doubtful, even if they did, voting against the tories isn't going to win an election for Labour.
People need to vote for Labour for them to win, not voting tory is not the same thing.
Labour aren't a remain party.
No one really knows what they stand for. Red unicorns better brexit is the only message I'm getting.
The Liberal Democrats are a remain party.
The Liberal Democrats are a remain party.
They have a funny way of going about it.
By not immediately falling into line behind corbyn, who doesn't seem to want anyone to know his agenda is? Lol
Labour aren’t the remain party I support.
Ignorant numpties like me don't know what they stand for.
FTFY.
No one really knows what they stand for.
Facilitating Brexit at every opportunity, but giving us the final say in a referendum before we leave. Not ideal, but I’ll take it, and if we get a vote before we have left, I’ll be voting Labour.
If No Deal Brexit happens this year, and the “because Tories wouldn’t make Corbyn PM” line is thrown about as the reason… not a chance in hell I’ll be voting Labour in any post-Brexit election ‘till they’ve got rid of him.
Red unicorns better brexit is the only message I’m getting.
Second referendum with the option to remain. That is their stated policy, by Corbyn himself, in writing, with his signature.
Or the tories and their Libdem mates with their no deal fantasism. If you want to stop brexit it’s a no-brainer.
“If you want to stop Brexit, vote for the man who says that Brexit should happen, but has been pushed into letting you have the final say” is not a no-brainer… even if it’s enough for my vote… it is complicated and does not elicit trust from voters.
That is their stated policy, by Corbyn himself, in writing, with his signature.
Is it their stated policy or is that the thing he's agreed in writing to do if he gets made pm?
(and if you think they're a remain party look at how quickly they distanced themselves from mcdonell's "I'll campaign for remain in the next referendum" remarks)
sootyandjim
Member
Labour aren’t the remain party I support.
Ignorant numpties like me don’t know what they stand for.
FTFY.
by definition half the populace are below average intelligence. perhaps you've got a flow chart you could show them? when you do that, remember that explaining it to them, is not understanding it for them.
add in mistrust from the '80% of voters voted for a party pledged to respect the referendum' thrown around by both major parties since the last election labour lost, and there's your defeat.
Anyone heard from him recently?
I was thinking a leader of the opposition should be in the papers, on TV, everywhere really talking about what a mess Johnson is making of things, maybe telling everyone what he'd do to make it better.
But no, radio silence, nothing.
And people wonder why Labour are not making progress...
He did a speech @lunge… even answered questions… well… took questions anyway. Answering would too generous a word, but he’s far from alone in that regard. That’ll be it ‘till September now. Where as Johnson will be popping his face and his “can do sprit” across all media channels daily. We could just blame the media for bias… or we could except that it is part of a wanna be PMs job to make themselves the story in a positive way… or recognise the problem is probably a bit of both.
The system may we’ll be stacked against any Labour leader… but that just means they need to be better at their job than the leader of the Conservative party… and at this aspect of the job… Corbyn is either missing, lacking a clear message, or a failure at communicating that message to the population via the media… or a bit of all three.
The press are horrid and beastly to him, so he doesn't talk to them
If there's anything you urgently need to know - maybe about the date of the march to express support for the people of Venezuela or the next meeting of the transgender poetry club - have a look at the notice board in the common room
But no, radio silence, nothing.
That nasty Mr Corbyn hasn't been on the telly and the wireless to reassure the poor little children that it's all going to be alright. Get over yourself, he's been very active last couple of weeks, when many others have been on holiday. What do you want, a daily personal update on his movements and activities? Or you could just open your eyes and watch the news.
Any movement on rural bus services?
The press are horrid and beastly to him, so he doesn’t talk to them
You'd think he'd at least get a fair and even handed spot on garders' world or something?
Any movement on rural bus services?
Still going on about those? I agree though they need urgent reform and billions of investment along with the rest of the rest of the public transport system if we're going to boost the regional economies and cut carbon emissions. It would also reduce the number of cars and make the roads safer for cyclists. If politicians actually talked more about these sorts of issues that have a direct and immediate impact on ordinary people's lives then they might get a little more respect.
he’s been very active last couple of weeks,
Doing what? Star jumps?
Or the tories and their Libdem mates with their no deal fantasism. If you want to stop brexit it’s a no-brainer
Really?
Feel free to put your faith in a man to retain membership of an organisation he’s spent his ENTIRE POLITICAL LIFE OPPOSING....
But that seems like a leap of faith too far IMHO..
What do you want, a daily personal update on his movements and activities? Or you could just open your eyes and watch the news.
I do watch and read rather a lot of news and I don't see much of the man who would be king. I certainly don't see much of him doing things (and haven't for the past 3 years). He's (visibly) written a letter proposing something which he's well aware is completely unacceptable to too many people to work. He's crowed repeatedly for a GE he knows he's not going to get, admittedly he has once forced that issue with a VonC but I'm not sure I've seen him do anything else, or even propose to do anything. Largely he's spent 3 years since the referendum (in which he avoided having an opinion) avoiding the press, not committing to anything except being committed to everything and telling us how bad the tories and everything they do are whilst providing 0 alternative. No "this is how it should be done" , he's just been telling us how bad the tory answer is.*
Crikey the man does less media than BJ who's own team won't let him do interviews because he's a liability and a moron. How in all honesty, is a man who looks less comfortable with scrutiny than boris-never-given-a-straight-answer-contradict-himself-in-the-same-sentence-johnson going to deliver a Labour win? And for the sake of repeating my self, that is not the same as a tory loss.
It's a tragic state of affairs when I think a vote for Labour at any pre brexit GE is a vote for Boris' brexit.
And yes, daily personal updates would be good in a world where the US is governed on twitter, policy is announced by "leaks" to the press and generally you're not a real person without an instabook account. It's not 1950 anymore, he needs to engage with the press, back office closed door meetings are the things of governance not opposition, not ambition, labour should be shouting from the rooftops not skulking in bunkers. He could have the best policies in the known universe but they're worth 0 if he can't get them in front of people.
*sorry your last has reminded me, he's told us exactly how he'll fix things. Millions of pounds of investment, because the last 100+ years of governance has irrefutably proven the best way to fix things is to just spend more money on them.
That's an awful lot of words to say that you want to see him on the news every day 🙂 Unfortunately I don't think he controls what news editors put on our screens.
It’s a tragic state of affairs when I think a vote for Labour at any pre brexit GE is a vote for Boris’ brexit.
The policy is a second referendum with remain as an option. If you interpret that as the same as Boris' brexit then that's not a problem the labour party are going to be able to solve with rational explanation or more screen-time.
so, what's he been doing for the last couple of weeks then?
The fact of the matter is that on the biggest issue facing this country for decades, he's been a disinterested spectator from the day Dave announced the referendum and Steptoe promptly went AWOL. He's still missing now, even as we hurtle towards the cliff edge with Boris cackling at the wheel.
The policy is a second referendum with remain as an option.
To my previous, has party policy changed? I thought it was still, at this late stage, all options remain on the table with a referendum somewhere behind a GE (not promised if we get a GE).
His letter asking to be made pm by the HoC promises a GE with a referendum as part of that platform (note he does not priomise to give a ref, [assuming they win] just to campaign for one in the GE campaign) semantics aside* though I don't take that to be a change in policy, its a necessary quid pro quo for asking to be put in charge.
They've not promised a referendum will be part of their GE campaign if corbyn isn't made interim leader.
If you interpret that as the same as Boris’ brexit then that’s not a problem the labour party are going to be able to solve with rational explanation or more screen-time.
No I interpret voting for Labour at this point as being like peeing into the wind. I don't think they've done anything to change the minds of the voters they need to win over. I can't see parliamentary numbers changing enough in a GE at present to change the status quo.
Labour needs to do something to win votes or their referendum policy (to what ever extent it exists) may as well be a policy to put elephants on the moon.
That's something they can fix through media engagement.
*edit: I can't seem to find the text of his letter such that I can read it in a small screen but, iirc, he doesn't actually promise to campaign fora referendum in it, only that a referendum would form part of the campaign, again semantics but if that recollection is correct "we're not having a referendum, out, out, out" would technically fulfil that promise.
That’s an awful lot of words to say that you want to see him on the news every day 🙂 Unfortunately I don’t think he controls what news editors put on our screens.
That type of comment is made frequently with the inference that the media is biased against Corbyn. It's not, if he was news worthy (ie interesting, ratings winner, had something new, relevant, outrageous to say, etc.) he'd be on more often. As a politician and especially opposition leader it's your job to get your message out, not sit back moaning about perceived bias from the media. Point is he's rubbish at it. He's been a disgrace since he took the role, the conservatives have made such a mess of things they should be looking at a generation on the back benches.
the policy is a general election, after which they'll attempt a red unicorn brexit deal, with a referendum on it including a remain optio, which they are unclear on whether or not as a party they would back, because they would then be standing on a position against a deal they had secured. I'm assured this makes perfect sense... Except they won't get that, because they won't win that election he's so desperate for, therefore handing BoJo the mandate to royally f us all in the arse.
and the idea that the leader of the opposition couldn't get on the tv or radio is laughable if it wasn't so sad and we weren't so very much in need.
where the f is he?