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Interesting one that, because as well as being incredibly rude and offensive, it strikes me as anti Zionist rather than antisemitic,
Yeah, the antisemitism is debatable, the total un-acceptableness isn't. My own personal view is you wouldn't use "Zionist" as a personal insult unless you were anti-semitic, it wouldn't make sense. I think lots of the other so called ant-semitic comments weren't anti Semitic. However that's not what you said, you said that some of the controversial comments were actually criticism of the state of Israel and as far as I can tell literally none are.
anti Zionist without being anti-semitic? Many Jews think so.
I can't really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can't see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
...and if you said you wanted all of Israel rid of all Israelis regardless of nationality would that be better? Not to my mind.
This is really quite a tangent.
Do you reckon that would be the case, particularly for the tories, if the same amount of effort was put into it?
But they don't put effort into it, they just skip the ad homs and have an actual debate. Jo Swinson doesn't get call a cum bucket. No death threats. It really is a Labour phenomenon.
[1] Or 'driven into the sea'.
I can’t really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can’t see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
Well no, because a Jewish state (zionism) is not the same thing as a state of Jews. Zionism is a political aim also supported by non-jews, equally, there are various Jewish groups who oppose a Jewish state, for various reasons. There's one orthodix group/ sect opposing the state of Israel because they believe it should only come into existence after the coming of the messiah.
Some of those groups have been derided as "kapos"; it's pretty difficult to think of anything more offensive.
Ooh look, Ma, I'm all growed up now!! I posted a Monty Python picture!!
FFS – stay out of it Kelvin.
Reported for self abuse.
I can’t really show how. Essentially that means you want the 75pc of Israelis who are Jewish banished to some undisclosed location [1] leaving the 25pc non Jewish people unharmed. I really can’t see how that is anything other than anti-semitic.
As I recall, some Jews consider Israel as "bad" because they believe that the Jewish state should be established by God, not Man. Or something along those lines - I'm sure Google would help!
I’m REALLY no expert, but I’m sure that you can think that the historical manner in which Israel came in to being is troubling, whilst still accepting the de facto existence of Israel. Similarly one can feel deeply uncomfortable about how India, ****stan and latterly Bangladesh were created, without wanting to get all invadey and map redrawingy about it.
There is something as deeply concerning about this weaponisation of bigotry and perceived bigotry, as there is about the bigotry itself.
Aaaah.... I think I get it now....
No death threats. It really is a Labour phenomenon.
That’s literally not true is it. (RIP Jo Cox). And the Daily Mail comments sections contain as many bat shit right wing mentalist who crack on with insulting socialists as any left wing loonys do attacking their perceived enemies. It’s not unique to either political leaning, it’s a problem with idiot people and the increasing polarisation of politics.
Zionism and anti-zionism discussed here in an Israeli context:
NB. 'the £3 blackshirts', can't you stoop any lower?
NB. ‘the £3 blackshirts’, can’t you stoop any lower?
Yeah! Brown shirts, surely? 🙄
Binners thinks people should stop being racist and be nicer to each other lol
Heal thyself sixth form comrade your talking jambabollocks.
I’m REALLY no expert, but I’m sure that you can think that the historical manner in which Israel came in to being is troubling, whilst still accepting the de facto existence of Israel.
Yup, but if you hold that view you're not an anti-zionist:
"Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. The term is broadly defined in the modern era to denote opposition to the political movement of Jews to self-determination within the territory of the historic Land of Israel"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
That’s literally not true is it. (RIP Jo Cox).
Sorry, I meant out of the mainstream parties, not out of every party .
As in my original post: "The LibDems, Torys, Greens and SNP just don’t seem to suffer from this level of name calling."
I very much doubt Thomas Mair was a card carrying Libdem.
No, I disagree. You can dislike, find distasteful, be uncomfortable with (and therefore be ‘anti’) the Zionist founding of Israel, whilst still recognising that what is done is done. Lots of States around the world are founded in iffy circumstances; by their nature there are winners and losers. Doesn’t mean that there’s anything to be gained by revisiting history.
I very much doubt Thomas Mair was a card carrying Libdem.
No, but you get my point. It’s not ‘a Labour issue’ it’s a fringe extremist lunatic issue. The Labour problem is that the loonies haven’t got a left wing UKIP equivalent to migrate to. Although there are still plenty of loonies in and supporting the Tories, too.
No, I disagree. You can dislike, find distasteful, be uncomfortable with(and therefore be ‘anti’) the Zionist founding of Israel, whilst still recognising that what is done is done.
Yup, you can do all those things, but if you did you wouldn't be an anti-Zionist. Anti-Zionist doesn't mean 'reluctant Zionist'.
The Labour problem is that the loonies haven’t got a left wing UKIP equivalent to migrate to.
The Labour Party was taken over by the loonies.
' Doesn’t mean that there’s anything to be gained by revisiting history': I don't think many Israelis seem to take that view with reference to themselves. Look at all those references to 'history' in the video above.
OOB, sorry, no, I disagree. Christopher Hitchens, noted atheist of Jewish descent and self declared ‘anti-Zionist’ explains what I mean far more eloquently than I could in this short clip.
OOB, sorry, no, I disagree.
That's fine, we can all read the definition for ourselves.
Leaked emails reveal that in January, Gardiner chose not to sanction a Corbyn supporter who allegedly said Labour MPs had a phone app that sent instructions from the Israeli government.
The individual, a white man in his fifties, also allegedly described the former Labour MP Chuka Umunna as “black on the outside, blue on the inside”, before responding to an objection from a mixed-race staffer by saying: “You would say that, wouldn’t you?”
Labour’s disciplinary unit, run by Gardiner, did not respond to a complaint about the incident for five months, citing an admin error and a “huge influx of cases”. It acted only after the mixed-race staffer said he was “concerned and disappointed” by the delay and could be racially abused at future events.
In an email dated January 2 this year, one of Gardiner’s aides wrote: “Thomas made a decision for a notice of investigation to be issued rather than a suspension. So this means the respondent is able to attend party meetings etc.” A further email stated: “Your comments below about anticipating further abuse will be passed on to the investigating officer.”
The individual remained a party member and posted incendiary material online, including an article in April saying Israel had been responsible for 9/11 and an illustration of an aeroplane emblazoned with the star of David heading for the World Trade Center.
Ignoring blatant racism in Labour, because the vicitim is not idealogically sound.
I see Comrade Binnerski has been on the twitter dot com again.
https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1153634992838365184?s=19
The individual, a white man in his fifties, also allegedly described the former Labour MP Chuka Umunna as “black on the outside, blue on the inside”, before responding to an objection from a mixed-race staffer by saying: “You would say that, wouldn’t you?”
That's taking support for Palestinians to a whole new level.
Any news from the allotment today? Hope all this heat hasn’t seen off the runner beans.
#wheresjeremy
Corbyn is literally a political potato.
I've never voted Labour.. For my sins I voted tory in my twenties and now vote lib/Green depending.
He's sat on the fence with brexit and he's sitting on the fence without sacking the racist elements within his own party.
He's not a leader, he's just a potato.
I listened to PMQs today since it was the PM's last day and I thought Corbyn was positively statesman-like in his initial comments on May. Excellent comments, excellent delivery. I know that's what politicos are cynically trying to do in these situations but even so.
... And yet May like Cameron asks him to resign.
Idiots. He's now on his 3rd Tory leader.
Soz Binnerz. Tom Watson more likely to resign.
Tom Watson more likely to resign.
Indeed, that's why May could say it without fear of toppling him and condemning Boris to face a credible opposition leader in the imminent GE.
Be funny & fitting if JC had shrugged and said "Ok, I resign" and May's last act as PM had been to hand a landslide to her opponents.
Or maybe Labour taking over Brexit is the only thing that could save the Tory party from extinction.
Wow, this thread is just littered with Blairites crying for "the good old days".
I can understand your frustration, what with the Labour Party daring to allow us hoi polloi more of a say over how our party is run and who represents us. I mean, how very dare we!
Perhaps, given the Tory-light leanings of Blairites you'd all be better off jumping ship to the Lib Dems? Their new leader seems like she would be just the ticket for you all. Repeatedly chucking about the word "Comrade" as if it's an insult or thinking that doing so is the height of comedy is quite frankly pathetic.
As for the anti-Semitism nonsense, criticism of Israel as a state is not anti-Semitism. Supporting BDS is not anti-Semitism. Calling into question the motives of members of the Labour Friends of Israel is not anti-Semitism.
What I care about is the fact that we have another shit bag pm and labour have done nothing to stop him.
What I care about is the fact that we have another shit bag pm and labour have done nothing to stop him.
This, this so many times.
What I care about is the fact that we have another shit bag pm and labour have done nothing to stop him.
You understand how the Tory leadership election works don't you? Labour don't get a say.
I can understand your frustration, what with the Labour Party daring to allow us hoi polloi more of a say over how our party is run and who represents us. I mean, how very dare we!
cough cough brexit cough
Wow, this thread is just littered with Blairites crying for “the good old days”.
I never voted for Labour under Blair… Corbyn got me voting Labour in 2017 for the first time… nothing I’ve seen since suggests that he shouldn’t have made way straight after that election for someone else prepared to carry on the fight for a left wing Labour government. He successfully moved Labour on policy towards where most members and many voters wanted it (except on Brexit), and then stubbornly stood in the way of the forward momentum (sorry) gained, when they should have been appointing a new leader for the next stage after that election loss. Corbyn will be old stale news with the voters by the time the next election comes around, and even with members who elected him (twice) his Brexit policy positioning has done irreparable damage to his reputation.
Wow, this thread is just littered with Blairites crying for “the good old days”.
I wonder how many Tory PM’s Jezza will get to stand impotently and uselessly across the despatch box from, in his once weekly ventures away from the allotment?
5? 6? 7?
The sixth formers and the PFJ still show no sign of wanting shut of him, so he’s clearly going nowhere (literally and metaphorically)
In the end, Magic Grandad will surely go down as the most effective leader in the history of the Tory Party
The sixth formers and the PFJ still show no sign of wanting shut of him, so he’s clearly going nowhere (literally and metaphorically)
In the end, Magic Grandad will surely go down as the most effective leader in the history of the Tory Party
Well I'm calling "house" on this game of Bitter Little Babbling Blairite Bingo.
Bore off or get some new material.
You’re not having a punt on how many then, comrade?
Oh... go on!
We could put a few roubles on it, Comrade?
I’m going for 6, possibly 7,before an unfortunate incident with a courgette finally consigns him to his mausoleum in Islington where the party faithful (and thankful Tory MPs) can queue to file past, daily, to pay their respects
And perhaps then, what’s left of the Labour Party can try and move on from it’s permanent state of pointless, pitifully feeble and gutless, placard-waving opposition
There you go again, chucking about the word "comrade" as if it's an insult.
Give up on dreams of Blair or one of his cronies making a comeback to drag Labour towards the right. The rank and file of the Labour Party have found their voices and are not afraid to use them.
Going great, isn’t it comrade?
I like how Corbynites have completely abandoned their bunker mentality.
There you go again, chucking about the word “comrade” as if it’s an insult
Taking the piss out of Cosplay Commies calling each other comrade will never not be funny.
Solidarity, comrade Binski!
Bore off or get some new material.
Zero chance.
Boris has tipped the Momentum faithful the secret wink to thank them for their support in keeping Jezza in ‘power’ and clearing his path...
Corbyn peaked at the last election. First of the losers.
Cosplay Commies calling each other comrade will never not be funn
"Cosplay Commies" had me aspirating my coffee. Is this a CFH original?
I think that what we need is a form of overseas service for the wannabe revolutionaries- send them off to somewhere where their policies are enacted for 6 months, then let them come back to the joys of a capitalist society and its so-called yankee imperialist running-dog toilet paper to see if they have done any learning and growing.
I think that what we need is a form of overseas service for the wannabe revolutionaries- send them off to somewhere where their policies are enacted for 6 months, then let them come back to the joys of a capitalist society and its so-called yankee imperialist running-dog toilet paper to see if they have done any learning and growing.
Yeah, down with people wanting an equal society where decision are based on what is good for society as a whole rather than rich individuals
Then make the case for it! Its what most people want.
But they're not going to get it from a party that totally refuses to engage with any other form of media other than Twitter. That is consistently silent on Brexit and the issues facing the country, even when faced with a vile, self-serving far-right Tory party led by a self-serving narcissistic buffoon who's hell-bent on lining his rich mate's pockets as he crashes us out of the EU
With an open goal once again yawning in front of them, as Johnson stuffs his cabinet full of extremist Brexiteers, the leader of the Labour party yet again takes his run-up to, reliable as ever, spoon it into row Z
This is what the bearded ****-wit has on his mind right now
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1154290494299693057?s=20
FFS!!! What planet are they on in the bunker? It'd actually be hilarious if the implications weren't so tragic for us all.
Boris and his team must be on their knees thanking the lord that this laughably irrelavent idiocy is what passes for their 'opposition'
Yeah, down with people wanting an equal society where decision are based on what is good for society as a whole rather than rich individuals
The problem historically has been that if you tax/punish/purge all your rich (successful, talented) individuals they leave and you lose their output. ...and then you need to build a wall to stop the last few leaving because you need them. ....and as new talented people come up they can't be bothered because if everyone is equal there's no benefit to producing more than the slackers. and if there's no carrot then the only motivator left is the stick. And all of that makes life rather miserable for everyone.
So cranberry's point is spot on. Why does Britain have to be the experiment? Why not try it somewhere else and if it works, great we can all do it. I suspect the answer to that is, it has been tried and it's been a disaster so even Cosplay Commies (love it) realize that (like it or not) meritocracy trumps equality every time.
Cosplay Commies
Do they dress up and go to Commie-Con?
I think that what we need is a form of overseas service for the wannabe revolutionaries- send them off to somewhere where their policies are enacted for 6 months, then let them come back to the joys of a capitalist society and its so-called yankee imperialist running-dog toilet paper to see if they have done any learning and growing.
The socialist paradise of Venezuela has freed up some space recently. They'd need to take their pets.
We're just pretending Scandinavia doesn't exist?
Socialism = Venezuela and no other country?
I wouldn’t worry about this country moving too far left for you (in my option it could move a long long way in that direction now before any of you’d have any real reason for concern at all) because in the biggest week for the Leader Of The Opposition for years… he seems to be happy to keep his powder dry ‘till September. By when, I’m pretty sure it’ll just result in a damp fizz when lit, even if he does give it a good go. Slow, missing, unappealing to most. New Leader time. Right now. It’s already too late.
Socialism = Venezuela and no other country?
Feel free to suggest somewhere.
Scandinavia is a meritocracy just like any other western democracy.
ffs the merits or otherwise of Corbyn as "leader" of the "opposition" (not much leading and v little opposing) have got very little to do with the merits or otherwise of socialism/social democracy.
The issue's not the policies, it's the fact that you need to get to be able to enact them. this seems highly unlikely with Corb in charge.
this seems highly unlikely with Corb in charge.
Agree, and it feels to me like someone average like an Ed Milliband would comfortably win and a Chukka or David Milliband would get a landslide.
The only thing stopping Labour being a dead cert for a landslide right now is Momentum/Corbyn.
Scandinavia is a meritocracy just like any other western democracy.
It is a mixed economy like any successful country. The further you move to one extreme or another the more issues you face.
Chukka or David Milliband would get a landslide.
No, they really wouldnt. Blair knew this thats why he left when he did. Got the praise and left the mess behind for others to deal with. That mess including all those people who felt left behind and ignored by Labour chasing the tories every rightwards.
Taking the piss out of Cosplay Commies calling each other comrade will never not be funny.
Solidarity, comrade Binski!
Meanwhile, Boris stuffs his cabinet full of those who like a nicely polished jackboot.
Maybe they should get Hugo Boss to design them some nice uniforms? Black is very flattering.
Corbyn has failed.
But not because of his policies, but because he is an ineffectual eternal sixth former.
People who claim to be Labour supporters and would rather throw buckets of shit from the sidelines rather than, you know, actually get involved and do something about changing things don't help either.
It is a mixed economy like any successful country.
So is the Uk.
We're looking for examples of Equality/Socialism being the way forward. We already know that capitalist meritocracies work fairly well.
We’re looking for examples of Equality/Socialism being the way forward.
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
We already know that capitalist meritocracies work fairly well.
Well that depends who you are.
Currently those in charge are actively punishing the most vulnerable members of society
If you are happy to benefit from the suffering of others, then I can see how you would think that.
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
There wasn't equality in the UK in 1978, it wasn't socialist and it was still a meritocracy.
Apart from that, great example!
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
Back when indoor plumbing, cars, heating, and TVs were a middle class luxury? We only had 3 TV channels and black and white TVs, and intermittent power outages. No internet. No amazon.
You want to go back to that? How about moving to Venezuela?
Back when indoor plumbing, cars, heating, and TVs were a middle class luxury? We only had 3 TV channels and black and white TVs, and intermittent power outages. No internet. No amazon.
You want to go back to that? How about moving to Venezuela?
....and how many working class people went to Uni back then?
...but it's academic because (as abysmal as it was) it wasn't an example of a country where everyone was "equal".
We’re looking for examples of Equality/Socialism being the way forward. We already know that capitalist meritocracies work fairly well.
No we dont. We know mixed economies work.
As for capitalist which variant do you mean?
As for meritocracy. That definitely hasnt been tried.
But equality was actively pursued. As was the principle of helping the most vulnerable.
As opposed to today, where our current leaders are increase inequality and punishing the worst off.
And if Corbyn is a Commie, which the right wingers insist is true, that makes all pre '79 governments of whatever flavour Commies too.
and how many working class people went to Uni back then?
And how many people now think that was a bad idea?
Most on here are happy to have benefited, but are in a huge rush to pull up the ladder so they can pay less tax.
Make your minds up.
No we dont. We know mixed economies work.
Yup, then I said capitalist I did indeed mean mixed. So great, we're already a mixed economy all is well without us kicking all the useful people out in the interests of equality.
As opposed to today, where our current leaders are increase inequality
Eh? In 1979 I would not have to to Uni. What percentage of people owned their own homes in 1979. The UK is *way* more equal now than it was in 1979. But yes, it's not equal, so we all still have an incentive to put more in and produce more. That why it works.
We're looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
We're still waiting.
Yup, then I said capitalist I did indeed mean mixed
Ah so you meant something complete different. Thats useful.
So great, we’re already a mixed economy all is well without us kicking all the useful people out in the interests of equality.
I have no idea what you are going on about here.
As for useful people. I think you are confusing highly paid with useful. The two arent always correlated.
What percentage of people owned their own homes in 1979.
55% compared to 65% now. As a fair amount of housing was effectively given away only to be leased back more expensively this gives a burden on the government not to mention private renters.
You might be.
Not everyone is naive enough to think that is possible.
What most sensible people strive for is equality of opportunity.
And post 79 Tories have consistently paid lip service to this ideal, whilst their policies have attempted to achieve the exact opposite.
55% compared to 65% now. As a fair amount of housing was effectively given away only to be leased back more expensively this gives a burden on the government not to mention private renters.
Yep, think it is even lower now at 63% so without the right to buy fiasco probably no change from the seventies so not a great measure for any capitalist 'success'
And for those that think capitalism is successful you must see all the problems where it creates a society that simply doesn't give a shit about others as long as you are okay. I would guess you are also in that camp.
Of course trying to accept that and increase equality must equal a failed socialist state. There cannot be anything in between...
We’re looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
As RustySpanner has pointed out you are demanding evidence for a scenario that no one is arguing for.
As a, claimed, believer in meritocracy you should be in firm agreement with them about equality of opportunity since that is the only way you can get a meritocratic society. Although the downsides of the rather extreme level equality of opportunity would need to be taken to would put most sensible people off.
They had Commie Con - it was called Jezfest, or for the true believers, Jizzfest.
It was all about how this time, socialism will work, certainly, not like all of those failed attempts of the past that weren't really *true* socialism.
They produced nothing and peed money up the wall, which is a little bit too ironic.
We’re looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
While we're waiting, can you supply a list of unsuccessful countries where everyone is equal?
While we’re waiting, can you supply a list of unsuccessful countries where everyone is equal?
East Germany is an obvious example. When you have to build a wall to stop people getting *out* you really have to accept you've failed.
Everyone was “equal” in the GDR? What are you on about?
Anyways… a mixed economy is what we have… how much that includes public services supplied based on need not ability to pay is a big discussion… as is what falls into the realm of public services, and who provides them, and if they should be a way of encouraging a meritocracy rather than allowing inherited position and wealth to embed privilege.
But this is all irrelevant, while Labour is neutered as it is by a leader who should have moved to another role two years ago. Parliament will be closed soon, and after the summer, the move even further to the right will really take off… at speed… to much outcry by politicians that have allowed Corbyn to “wait for the right moment”. It will be too late.
Anyone have a theory on why Corbyn is staying on. He doesn't want the job, The Corbynistas have calmed down to a point where he could walk away without one of his troops torching his house. John McDonnell has identified several people who the the leadership/Momentum would be happy to take over.
So why hasn't he gone and given his party a decent chance in the next election? Is it just to keep Unite happy? Or is he banking on a late election and holding on 'till the last minute to take as much flak for his successor? Or is he holding on to stop a remainer getting the leadership?
Theories?
Latest 'who would make the best PM' polling from Yougov
Allotment Bigot - 20
Mop topped ass - 38
Don't know - 38
#LongGame
LongGame
😀