Ninfan / Ulysses

I think you would both agree that you would want to see an end to police shootings of innocents. We have seen too many.

I think the reasons for each are complex and multifactorial. This is usual in serious inci9dents in any industry. The key to preventing more mistakes is to find out what happened and to remove that cause.

At the moment Police officers are under threat of criminal sanctions every time they use their gun. This will as a consequence make them likely to shade their reports to defelct any blame from them. The answer is to go to an airline type " no fault" investigation. If the officer ws too gung ho / hyped up and shoots an innocent ( medezes) why did that happen? A failure of training? Selection? Briefings?

Only when we find out the truth will we be able to stop these things happening. Only if we remove the threat of criminal sanctions for mistakes will we be able to find the truth

the same should apply to medical mistakes as well.

and with the best will in the world, not even life-long socialists like me are caught by a description like that.

And MS is further left again.

I sympathise with what they stand for, but I don't read them. And I'm confident I'm not alone here.

So you don't want a left wing news source yourself. ...but you do want there to be a leftwing news source with massive sales.

What about the centre-left press - Guardian/Observer/Mirror? Make my day and tell me you don't buy them because they're not left enough!

Jamba - I'm not getting suckered by anything. From my previous posts you know I am no fan of Corbyn (although the tories are actually making Corbyn appear more statesmanlike because of their personal attacks).
I also have little doubt the tories will win however I just don't want to see May and her cohorts deciding they have a mandate for hard brexit and indeed any other insanity they can think up.
I think it would be hilarious if May ended up with a smaller majority because of her gamesmanship but am under no illusions to its likelihood.

Which is why it would have been better if he'd cited a source,

Isaiah?

It must be a tough gig, being an armed officer.

Hard to imagine [i]not[/i] being hyped up in a life-or-death situation, and personally I'm not averse to their presence on the streets.

It's the lesser of two evils, I think (although I found myself rather ambivalent about the the sheer number of guns on the streets when I was down in London a few months back - don't get many of them here in Blyth!) and I am sure that the [i]message[/i] their presence sends to the public is a broadly positive, reassuring one.

So you don't want a left wing news source yourself. ...but you do want there to be a leftwing news source with massive sales.

Impressively, I never said either of those things.

I thought my point was clear enough, but for the avoidance of any doubt: there is an imbalance of power in the media which strongly favours the right; and these media often support overt and covert agendas that suit their (Right-wing) owners to the extent that those agendas influence government policy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/eu-referendum-the-sun-urges-readers-to-vote-leave-as-murdoch-applies-pressure-a7080881.html

And

https://www.indy100.com/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.

For example.

And in return, these media support the Right wing government that shares its interests.

I am sure that the message their presence sends to the public is a broadly positive, reassuring one.

I very much doubt that in large parts of our cities

@keithr as a few of us have said, if left leaning people bought papers there would be a different slant. The press in France is predominantly left leaning and markedly so.

Blaming the press is getting a pretty old and if I may say so a lame excuse. Blair won 3 times.

Labour's biggest issue in this election is Corbyn. The right where keen to see him elected for good reason. The Labour Partiy's senior experienced politicians warned that this would be how it worked out.

You made that up.

Yup, thats my prediction having spent a bit of time looking at "marginal" seats especially where the Kippers are likely to vote Conservative. Swing in Scotland is going to be significant too, SNP have misplayed the Indy Ref2 / EU angle.

You cannot compare newspapers that are political as their primary goal (i.e. Socialist Worker, the clue is in the title!) with tabloids that happen to be owned by right wing billionaires who use then to pervert democracy.

You would need to find what the readership figures are like for "Conservative today" or whatever a Conservative dedicated newspaper would be called to match the left wing papers. Presumably there is a paper like that but it is not being bought by anyone.

There are no left wing tabloids because there are no left wing tabloid owners. If there was a left wing tabloid filled with all the crap you see in the Sun or the Mail then that would sell to. The problem would be finding a left wing view that is so divisive, racist, sexist, anti-minority etc,. as the Daily Mail.

I thought my point was clear enough, but for the avoidance of any doubt: there is an imbalance of power in the media which strongly favours the right;

Yup, it's a straightforward enough point and in no way contradictory to mine which is that I'm staggered that you're complaining about low circulation of left wing media when you yourself don't support the left wing media because it's not really your cup of tea.

There's media to suit every political bias, if circulation is low for media with one point of view the only people likely to improve that circulation are people with that point of view.

Blair won 3 times.

You may want to look up how he handled the press/made deals before his first election win. The press control a high number of peoples political thinking and not sure why you cannot see that.
Without the press behind Brexit it would never has got voted for as that slim majority would have easily swung the other way, but you know that too.

[url= http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/shame-for-corbyn-as-source-confirms-labour-leader-had-curry-with-skeletor-in-1991/ ]Another right wing press Corbs exposé[/url]

There are no left wing tabloids

The Mirror?

keithr - Member

And MS is further left again.

You are very seriously mistaken if you think the Morning Star is "further left" than the Socialist Worker.

For example the Morning Star has [i]always[/i] supported the election of a Labour government, even when the party was led by Tony Blair. In contrast the ultra-left, such as the the SWP, has [i]always[/i] failed to support the election of a Labour government, preferring instead to demand instant revolution, before eventually of course retreating into their comfortable middle-class lifestyles and voting Tory - being ultra-leftist is rarely a lifelong commitment.

If you think the Morning Star is further left than the Socialist Worker then I would suggest that you read some Morning Star editorials, presumably you never have.

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/editorial

I think you'll find that the Morning Star takes very sensible editorial positions and rejects [i]all[/i] forms of extremism.

I'm playing with the idea of subscribing to the morning star for the shop, to counter the right wing press bias

You are very seriously mistaken if you think the Morning Star is "further left" than the Socialist Worker.

In your opinion. Not mine. And I've been dipping in and out of both for around 40 years, ta.

I agree with Paul Anderson of the Tribune who described it as retaining:

"...its reputation for bone-headed Stalinism.

It runs articles extolling the virtues of single-party 'socialist' states on a regular basis – North Korea, Cuba, China, Vietnam. Its default position on just about everything happening in the world is that anything any western power supports – but particularly the United States – must be opposed, which has led to it cheering on Putin, Hamas, Assad and a lot of other real nasties"

"Further left" is not actually a criticism from me, incidentally - no need to ride into battle on the paper's behalf - but SW tends to a more balanced, Real World view in my reading, so it plays better to me.

If that's OK with you.

It has nothing to do with "opinion". The Socialist Worker is very significantly to the left of the Morning Star. It's not the other way round as you claim.

Do you think it's also just "an opinion" that the Daily Mail is more right-wing than the Guardian. Or is it a fact?

It has nothing to do with "opinion"

No, it [i]really[/i] is - there's no such thing as Calibrated Leftwingometer.

Do you think it's also just "an opinion" that the Daily Mail is more right-wing than the Guardian. Or is it a fact?

Jeez...

The Daily Mail [i]is self-declared[/i] as Right wing.

The Socialist Worker is very significantly to the left of the Morning Star. It's not the other way round as you claim.

[i]In your opinion[/i].

I'm staggered that you're complaining about low circulation of left wing media when you yourself don't support the left wing media because it's not really your cup of tea.

And [i]again[/i] I said no such thing.

I'm not "complaining" about the low circulation of left-leaning media - merely observing the fact of it it.

And I never said I don't support left-wing media either - I said nothing at all on that point to suggest such a thing.

What I said was I don't read the Morning Star or Socialist Worker (I used to subscribe to the Tribune, for example) - but they're [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_left-wing_publications_in_the_United_Kingdom ]not the only options[/url] for people with socialist leanings and an internet.

no it is just is as ernie says just as it is true that the Daily Mail is more right wing than the guardian. They are not opinions they are just facts [ so your opinion is true or false ] one does not need a leftwingometer or a rightwingometer to know these things one just has to know what one is talking about

why are you doing three posts rather than just one - Just edit or do it one go please

[quote=Junkyard said]
why are you doing three posts rather than just one - Just edit or do it one go please

The man was on a roll, actually made it to four consecutive posts! Holy invisible edit button batman.

I'm not "complaining" about the low circulation of left-leaning media - merely observing the fact of it it.

Sorry, I thought you were complaining about it.

but they're not the only options for people with socialist leanings and an internet.

Yup, the content's there, what's missing is the demand.

The only leftwing tabloid pointing out Tory hypocrisy
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/six-times-tories-said-exactly-10511011

You're coming in half way through and completely missing the point, Junkyard.

Ernie's point about about DM vs. Guardian was as inane as you've suggested.

But he used that daft, self-answered question as a response to me saying that whether the Morning Star or the Socialist Worker was more left-wing, [i]was[/i] a matter of opinion and interpretation.

[i]And it is[/i]. There's no [i]measure[/i] of Leftwingness.

Following your edit......

keithr - Member

It runs articles extolling the virtues of single-party 'socialist' states on a regular basis – North Korea

That's the sort of gibbering nonsense that Michael Fallon would be proud of.
North Korea is a quasi-fascist state, the Morning Star certainly doesn't '[i]extol its virtues[/i]', ffs.

Yup, the content's there, what's missing is the demand.

Yep, and that's partly because of the pervasive dominance of, and control over, the media and access to it, by the Right.

The man was on a roll, actually made it to four consecutive posts! Holy invisible edit button batman.

A flurry of posts chiming in and missing points left right and centre (puns intended) will have that effect...

was as inane as you've suggested.

no its self evidently true despite the absence of a rightwingometer or an SI unit of measure.

There's no measure of Leftwingness.

That's the sort of gibbering nonsense that Michael Fallon would be proud of. North Korea is a quasi-fascist state, the Morning star certainly doesn't "extol its virtues", ffs.

Bollocks, sunshine - that's pretty much the equivalent of invoking Godwin's Law, right there.

And I was quoting someone whose opinion I'm going to take over some internet nonentity, every day of the week. Take it up with him

that's pretty much the equivalent of invoking Godwin's Law, right there

And I was quoting someone whose opinion I'm going to take over some internet nonentity, every day of the week. Take it up with him

To fair keithr you are clearly remarkably clueless about the subject that you are trying to discuss.

You make the claim that the Morning Star is 'further to the left' than the Socialist Worker because someone has told you some bollocks that it runs articles extolling the virtues of single-party North Korea, and yet if you knew what you were actually talking about you would know that the Socialist Worker completely rejects change through elections.

If you accept that all print media is struggling a new player is not going to make it into the market so you are left with what there is. Trying to say Murdoch has no real influence is crap, he supported where his interests were best served. for a time that was with Labour and Blair. He used his papers to deliver in exchange for what he wanted.
Now we will all have to accept that papers do exist that are on the left, their circulation is there but those people also can get their information from other sources, like the BBC etc. when I scroll down my newsfeed there are less print sources and more broadcasters in it these days.

As a related story
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/19/trump-press-coverage-sets-new-standard-for-negativity-study.html
They looked at the coverage that was presented, the majority was much more negative - not hard to see where the majority of the stories coming out are actually failures and bad news. Fox news managed only 50/50 good vs bad and as observed by a few others to achieve that they have had to ignore several major stories and not cover them at all. Remind me who runs that truth seeking network?

Anyway back on topic... the level of the personal attacks show that they really don't want to talk policy and are certainly not comfortable standing by all of theirs.
No wonder public opinion is changing.

@mike Corbyn (especially but McDonnell too) is Labour's weaklink so the election campaign was ALWAYS going to be about him vs May

On Terrorism here is a quote from a parent. This is why JC's comments where so naive amd inflamatory

In a tribute to the teenager, her family said: "Her life was taken away after 18 short years by evil, evil men prepared to ruin lives and destroy families, for what?

"I wish I could say that Georgina is one of the last to die in this way but unless our government opens its eyes we know we are only another in a long line of parents on a list that continues to grow."

Germany has faced numerous terrorist attacks and it has been one if not the most supportive towards refugees and of course largely stayed out of Iraq and Syria. The Manchester bomber was an enemy if Gadaffi. Gadaffi was our enemey too. His brother planned an attack on the UN. Corbyn's statementt was naive amd incredibly poorly timed

One of the biggest things to do is accept the actual risks of terrorism, fanning the flames is dangerous and counter productive. Should we be heading to ninfans utopia where he locks people up without trial?
Should we try and tackle the real issues?
Given all the tough talk and all the shouting these things still happen. Perhaps it should be seen as a failure of the current PM and former home secretary.

Locking people up without trial is what Blair did. Totally correct imho.

The head of Israel's police said after Manchester that you have to make a difficult choice between freedoms and security. The right to life exceeds all others.

The head of Israel's police said after Manchester that you have to make a difficult choice between freedoms and security. The right to life exceeds all others.

Perhaps the right to life needs applying hard to the deaths of cyclists and pedestrians, deaths due to pollution etc. The assault of poor practice in H&S has worked so maybe that's a sign we can change.

Locking people up without trial is what Blair did. Totally correct imho.

It's a really good idea. I mean Operation Demetrius was the most successful recruitment drive the IRA ever had. 🙄

The head of Israel's police said after Manchester that you have to make a difficult choice between freedoms and security.

This is a false choice, as an Isreali should be more aware than most.

The thing is, jamba, if your favourite Tory authoritarians enact a whole raft of oppressive and intrusive legislation, what you gonna do if, despite your best efforts, the public elect an evil Marxist to be El Presidente? Do you look good in an orange jump suit?

One of the biggest things to do is accept the actual risks of terrorism, fanning the flames is dangerous and counter productive.

How did Sweden fan the flames?

Abbott car crash on Marr.

Abbott car crash on Marr.

Overweight black woman on TV alert !!!

Diane reannouncing Cameron's extra 1000 MI5 officers

[s]Overweight black woman [/s] [b]proposed Labour Home Secretary [/b] on TV alert !!!

and her politics change with her hair style

hair style

Hah - can't help yourself, can you?!

It seems weak n wobbly is sending xenophobic Rudd to do the upcoming TV debate. Is she so weak she can't stand up for 90 minutes?

Hah - can't help yourself, can you?!

I am still astounded that the person who wants to be Home Secretary has indentified a hair style as symbolic of a politics that campaigns openly for the defeat of the British State, but we are OK now as she has changed that hairstyle

It seems weak n wobbly is sending xenophobic Rudd to do the upcoming TV debate.

The debate's not til Wednesday - plenty of time for her to change her mind before then.

😆

plenty of time for her to change her mind before then.

Terrorist supporter alert !!

[img] :small[/img]

Diane Abbott on Marr 😯 😯 😯

Just caught it on catchup. An absolute catastrophe. I thought Amber Rudd nailed it when she said "I have changed my hair many times in 34 years but have not changed my attitude to terrorists"

I wonder what state the parties would be in if they ditched all those we perceive to be incompetent.

DrJ Abbot made the hairstyle reference, that's why we are quoting it

Abbott on Marr's show this morning another car poor showing from the deluded idiot. She wanted to dismantle MI5, supported the IRA with her lover Corbyn. Apparently a lot of time has passed and she's changed her hairstyle so it's ok is it? And has no regrets in saying what she has in the past!
Amber Rudd then came on and wiped the floor with her.
I'm absolutely furious with the Labour party, I have never voted Conservative in a general election and they have bloody well forced me to. It should be easy to beat the Tories, NHS cuts, welfare state cuts, privatisation etc etc but these 3 Labour buffoons are so inept it looks to be an impossible task for them.
I wonder what will become of Labour after the election, I'm guessing if he refuses to go another party will be formed.

@slow well Labour under Blair sidelined people like Abbott for good reason. Effectively they got rid of her from a national perspective

Aaaaargghhh - I find myself agreeing with Jamba again 🙂

@slow well Labour under Blair sidelined people like Abbott for good reason. Effectively they got rid of her from a national perspective

I'm sure in power he will have a few more to select from as they will have stopped flouncing.

I'm sure he won't see power

On another note, Corbyn was very good on Peston. Just made Peston's questions seem stupid (which they largely were) and gave clear and composed answers.. Whereas Fallon looked like the clown he is.

@kerly I will happily take your comments as representative, that's more palatable than listening to Robert Peston

@AD relax as its me agreeing with you 😉

DrJ - you seem to overlook the key difference between attending the launch of a new bus where the elected politician was present had renounced violence and engaged in the democratic process and repeatedly sharing platforms with people who are still committed to the terrorist cause and / or protesting outside court that the terrorist on trial are actually heroes and deserve our love and respect and / or leading petitions to give convicted IRA murderers better visiting conditions in prison.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/19/exclusive-mi5-opened-file-jeremy-corbyn-amid-concerns-ira-links/

[img] [/img]
[img] [/img]

Whereas bojo hasn't changed his hair style but changes his views on terrorism with each light breeze that blows.

@j5min - I hadn't been aware that election to parliament was sufficient basis for absolution from sin. Has the Pope been informed?

The political point is though this is out there. People know it, people have made a decision based on that. The fact the right wing boys here feel the need to go on this rather than policy tells is a lot about the difference in the manifestos.

What I wished had happened was people had started to talk much earlier. That both sides realised they were in a war that was unwinnable. Hundreds of people lost their lives because both sides were unwilling to talk.

I hadn't been aware that election to parliament was sufficient basis for absolution from sin. Has the Pope been informed?

Shouldn't someone elected to the heart of one of the strongest democracies in the world be 100% opposed to sharing platforms and proposing policies that would undermine that same democracy they take wages from?

Assuming you're a medic, do you think it would appropriate for the leader of the BMA to share a platform with people who advocate the bombing of Hospitals and random murders of NHS Medics, Patients and their families?

Corbyn, Abbott and others have become millionaires at our expense all the while repeatedly affiliating themselves with those who would do harm to the constituents of their fellow MPs.

just5minutes - Member - Block User - Quote

I hadn't been aware that election to parliament was sufficient basis for absolution from sin. Has the Pope been informed?

Shouldn't someone elected to the heart of one of the strongest democracies in the world be 100% opposed to sharing platforms and proposing policies that would undermine that same democracy they take wages from?

Assuming you're a medic, do you think it would appropriate for the leader of the BMA to share a platform with people who advocate the bombing of Hospitals and random murders of NHS Medics, Patients and their families?

Corbyn, Abbott and others have become millionaires at our expense all the while repeatedly affiliating themselves with those who would do harm to the constituents of their fellow MPs.

Abbott had some extreme views 30-odd years ago, May sells weapons to the Saudis now.

all the while repeatedly affiliating themselves with those who would do harm to the constituents of their fellow MPs.

Shouldn't someone elected to the heart of one of the strongest democracies in the world be 100% opposed to sharing platforms and proposing policies that would undermine that same democracy they take wages from?

As for sharing platforms with what do you thin k has happened in Northern ireland and is it better for this sharing or worse for this sharing ?

FFS you RW have nothing else to go on about but do this - speaking to the terrorists is what brought about peace and your tory leaders did it whilst lying about the fact they were doing it and yet you still want to criticise the ones who did the same as you only openly and honestly

Overweight black woman on TV alert !!!

No shes a liability, everytime she opens her mouth Labour loses votes.

[quote=Junkyard said]
FFS you RW have nothing else to go on about but do this - speaking to the terrorists is what brought about peace and your tory leaders did it whilst lying about the fact they were doing it and yet you still want to criticise the ones who did the same as you only openly and honestly

The voters will make up their minds on 8th June, if it's a non-issue as you think then perhaps the public will see through it all.

its a smear and more of the lies win elections

i am sure the RW and their friends in the press are able to peddle and use lies to achieve what they want.

the election result will tell us nothing much about what the electorate think of this issue but , much like the Eu being anti democratic and wanting straight bananas etc I am sure the lies/distortions will have had some purchase or they would have stopped doing it and tried another approach

Still not much mention of the fact the tories did this and lied and that they have a convicted terrorist as a councillor ...i would not be as stupid as call them terrorist sympathisers for this or for negotiating with the IRA whilst lying about it. It was what had to be done to get peace

Diane abbot is a terrible politician IMHO and, even though I would be expected to sympathise with her, I would have done a Boris to her and locked her away to stop her digging a hole and jumping in it over and over again.

Presumably Jeremy also shared platforms with, met, invited over and commemorated the loss of representatives of loyalist paramilitary organisations as well?

you know, in order to promote dialogue and the peace process...

Nope?

Funny that...

Good to see of course that the lefties are getting their excuses lined up already - "Jeremy only lost the election because of right wing Tory lies" "the Tories wrote 'Jeremy loves the IRA' on the side of a bus" etc

You want policy?
Could a Corbynite explain why the bonds issued to nationalise the twenty odd water companies won't be government debt, I'm trying to understand McDonomics

Also who is going to take the write off of the market system for the non household competitive market which will close on nationalisation? How much are nine new billing systems going to cost?

How will the nine new companies raise cash for future investment? Will it increase government debt?

Good to see of course that the lefties are getting their excuses lined up already - "Jeremy only lost the election because of right wing Tory lies" "the Tories wrote 'Jeremy loves the IRA' on the side of a bus" etc

So you don't think tory lies have an effect then? You clearly can't dispute there are many tory liars, in fact most tories seem to be from what I can see.

Even when Corbyn had explained very well why he voted certain ways, what approaches he would use for terrorism etc,. 20 minutes later along comes Fallon on the same show misquoting everything he said and managed to derive that we would be more at risk from a terrorist threat with absolutely nothing to back it up, you could tell he just made it up on the spot.

Its pretty clear the media have real power and the politicians know this
Dave had a go at the owners of the mail re Dacre, May has dropped Levesson 2, Blair kissed diggers arse to get an endorsement etc
You do not need to take our word for the power/influence of the press you only have to look at how our leaders deal with them

Of course its not everything but its disingenuous* in the extreme to deny that having them on your side helps and that having them do hatchet jobs on you harms you. We all know this is true and only a fool [ or the very RW trolly] deny this.

* your perfect MO eh

Also to add in the nature of being clear and open there was a big surge of voter registrations for under 30's in the run up to the deadline. Maybe the worm is turning (well the PM is certainly turning on a regular basis)
On the emigration numbers perhaps people see a better future outside of the UK at present I certainly do and have no real intention to return at the moment.

How will the nine new companies raise cash for future investment? Will it increase government debt?

Question for the May fans - how will she actually manage to reduce immigration?
From the outside it looks like strangling markets, taxing people out of contention and making sure the UK can't recruit the people it needs. If anyone is looking at a good old Rover/British Leyland style future it's the tories here.

Different people may see different things. For me it's

Diane "my S doesn't stink" Abbott and Amber "just keep digging you odious woman" Rudd

[img] [/img]

Offsetting profits for investment would be a good thing?

If they are going to meet the stated stated objective of reducing profit in order to reduce prices, and they earmark profit to fund investment, what is paying the bond returns?

Also can you answer the McDonomics question, why won’t the bonds be government debt?

much like the Eu being anti democratic and wanting straight bananas

straight bananas referenced again - as I pointed out they did require grade 1 bananas to be of a straightness that the bananas from the Canaries couldn't meet, so they suddenly all became grade 2 bananas, seriously affecting their trade. So they had to rename them to something else to get around it.

Grading according to straightness, not quality. Very sensible and a great use of their time.