Jeremy Corbyn

Page 224 and 116 clod, off you go....

I don't buy the Sun, or the Mail, but they're still out there lying to people so apparently it's a pretty crap response.

scary stat that its still the most widely read UK [s]news[/s]paper (I think) and that the wail is the most widely read on-line [s]news[/s]site

"I don't know what an appropriate and proportionate response is- firebombing possibly."

I think sanctions against lying newspapers/media outlets should be denial of distribution/broadcasting. IE, you can't publish or broadcast for a period of time, if found guilty of publishing untruths. That might actually make proprietors and editors etc think, before lying. The loss in advertising revenue (and potential long term damage if companies pull out advertising altogether) would be significant.

I'd be interested in seeing a legal case against the Sun for lying again. And against Murdoch, as he's ultimately responsible for the content of the media he owns and controls.

But ah, Murdoch. The Great Untouchable.

"Page 224 and 116 clod, off you go...."

I've got a life actually. Be a good chap and just find it for us, thanks.

It makes me want to say things like "freedom of the press is essential and absolute, [i]except[/i]" and that's not a good look.

I think sanctions against lying newspapers/media outlets should be denial of distribution/broadcasting. IE, you can't publish or broadcast for a period of time, if found guilty of publishing untruths. That might actually make proprietors and editors etc think, before lying. The loss in advertising revenue (and potential long term damage if companies pull out advertising altogether) would be significant.

And therein lies the problem. Printed media are on a knife-edge. Anything you do that harms their sales will kill them off. People want to buy lies about Corbyn doing a jig. If you punish them effectively they fold. If you have punishments severe enough to make them print sane measured news they fold because nobody buys the paper.

I really don't see any non fatal but effective way to make the printed media behave in a sane fashion because their whole business is selling lies to people who want to buy lies.

People who want truth get it from the TV media which although far from perfect is way, way better.

"And therein lies the problem. Printed media are on a knife-edge. Anything you do that harms their sales will kill them off. People want to buy lies about Corbyn doing a jig. If you punish them effectively they fold. If you have punishments severe enough to make them print sane measured news they fold because nobody buys the paper."

I really don't have a problem with that. I'd rather have no newspapers than ones printing lies. Because the lies are damaging our society and undermining our democracy.

So, if the proprietors want their newspapers to survive, they should stop publishing lies. I really can't see how that would be a problem.

outofbreath - Member

If you punish them effectively they fold

Good. Let's do that.

"Good. Let's do that."

I'd agree. But the Politician who implemented a set of rules that killed off the entire UK press would look to the electorate like a dictator.

We already punish them when they break the law.

Beyond that, whether they fold or not depends on whether people are prepared to buy them. Sadly, they do...but that is no business of governments. And they know a black pot when they see one.

People need to *want* to care that the papers are lying.

Bubble news doesn't help anyone.

People increasing get their news feed via facebook with all the confirmation bias that this implies

That's a very different argument to saying there are no non-racist concerns about immigration.

True - but elevating immigration to top slot and campaigning heavily on that issue is racist. If the cap fits ...

"True"

Indeed it is.

but elevating immigration to top slot and campaigning heavily on that issue is racist

What race are most EU immigrants then?

"Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic" and "Corbyn has a problem with Jews" - these are my views and are shared in the interview below from Newsnight broadcast yesterday.

BTW Corbyn turned down an opportunity to go to Israel and sent Tom Watson instead. Corbyn has such an issue he would not accept the invitation as he knows his supporters would not approve of the visit.

"Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic" and "Corbyn has a problem with Jews" - these are my views

jambalaya - Member
"Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic"

You know, I do have sympathy with you over the Labour thing to some extent and have said so over the years, but that statement is both ignorant and offensive.

If I said that the Palestinians weren't entitled to a homeland, on the basis that Israel had won the land fair and square in a fight for survival, would that be racist?

I'd just assume you were trolling

No, I would only be trolling if I bothered pointing out how after being given safe harbour, the Palestinians tried to violently annex a large portion of Jordan for themselves, so no wonder none of the surrounding Arab nations wanted them either.

Rusty did you watch the video ? If not please do.

Junky there is a principal (I forget who it's named after) that Labour where considering adopting (but did not) that any racist incident should be judged by the recipient. If a Scottish person thinks being called a Sweaty then it is a racist term.

Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination. By being anti-Zionist you are denying Jews to have a homeland, anywhere. To be anti-Zionist you wish to see the destruction of Israel, you are against a two-state solution. As Israel is the only Jewish state to be against the very existence of the country is anti-Semitic. Those that champion anti-Zionism are well aware of this, they use the term as a disguise.

My statement is one many many people make and it is absolutely legitimate to make it.

Critism of Israeli government action or policy is entirely legitimate. The Israeli opposition do it all the time as do many Jews around the world.

Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination.

#jambafact which as usual could have been avoided by the most cursory of checking.

Thanks for the response.

Would you consider the two terms synonymous Jambers?

Critism of Israeli government action or policy is entirely legitimate.

Criticism of anything is valid.
Not the view of Yair Lapid though, is it?

I have no dog in this fight, or any other.
I don't care who is killing who.
I'd just like them to stop.

I disagree with Jambas and the bloke here but they have the simple point on their side - the -ism bit is in the eye of the beholder as the bloke in the video says. This may be crap but that is where the law lies and why is someone thinks that sweaty is racists - which it isnt - it is. Ditto if they think x is anti-semitic it is. That's the way it (doesnt) works at the moment. It cant work n some cases but not in others to suit.

The law sides with the offended in any -ism case as weird as that seems at times.

Junky there is a principal (I forget who it's named after) that Labour where considering adopting (but did not) that any racist incident should be judged by the recipient.

Are all Jews racist because i just said so then ?
Really you want to agree with that rather than accept its a flawed premise that of they say its racist it is racist.

Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination. By being anti-Zionist you are denying Jews to have a homeland, anywhere.

Saying israel does not deserve to exist is very different from massively criticising what they do.
Last i read up anti zionism had no agreed definition though Israel apologists do try to claim that anyone who criticises Israel is criticising jews. they do this as its hard to defend "putting people on a diet, illegal settlements, collective punishments and assassinations abroad to name a few of her sins.

The law sides with the offended in any -ism case as weird as that seems at times.

I am happy to openly criticise Israel to some Jews to test your interpretation of the law.
EDIT: I think you are confusing it being recorded as a hate crime and it being prosecuted as such ???

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/11/15/john-mcdonnell-backs-brexit-enormous-opportunity-britain

I'm not convinced that somehow wanting to trade with a little bit less red tape makes you a "corporate elite".

Seems to me that "corporate elite" is mindless name calling which detracts from the debate in pretty much the same way as 'racist' name calling does.

While Labour supported remaining in the EU to protect workers’ rights, we cannot hide from the fact that too much of the EU also had aspects of the old model, putting the interests of big business over ordinary people," he said.

Make your mind up John...

"Labour accepts the referendum result as the voice of the majority and we must embrace the enormous opportunities to reshape our country that Brexit has opened for us."

Such as....

Perhaps it would be helpful if politicians chose to STFU on Brexshit, we simply trigger A50 and allow the negotiation process to run its course. We know the starting points all we need to work out is the compromise positions that lies somewhere in-between.

"Zionism simply means the right of Jews to self determination. By being anti-Zionist you are denying Jews to have a homeland, anywhere."

Zionism is a political ideology. It is not one subscribed to by all Jews, even in it's simplest original form.

[i]The term “Zionism” was coined in 1890 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Its general definition means the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.

Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism has come to include the movement for the development of the State of Israel and the protection of the Jewish nation in Israel through support for the Israel Defense Forces.

From inception, Zionism avocated tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions - left, right, religious and secular - formed the Zionist movement and worked together toward its goals.

Disagreements in philosophy has led to rifts in the Zionist movement of the years and a number of separate forms have emerged, notably: Political Zionism; Religious Zionism; Socialist Zionism and Territorial Zionism.[/i]

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/zionism.html

"To be anti-Zionist you wish to see the destruction of Israel"

Utter bollocks.

I actually agree with certain aspects of Zionism. I'm quite a fan of the idea of the kibbutzim and moshavim. I'm also a fan of many of the social aspects of Judaism, such as the importance of mutual support and the idea of strong community. Indeed, such philosophies form the basis of my own, and wider, political ideals to which I subscribe.

Anti-Israel, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism too often become conflated, by those choosing to push their own particular agendae. One can be one or more, without the other. I'm personally vehemently opposed to the Israeli government regime, and the form of 'Zionism' practised by many who would happily see Arabs forced from their homes and even killed. I am also vehemently opposed to the murder of ordinary innocent Israeli citizens by members of Hamas or other organisations, and I am totally against the homophobia and oppressive fundamentalism espoused by many of Hamas' members. However, I do feel there are people within Hamas, who may have something useful to say. But we aren't hearing about them, only the shouty belligerent nut jobs. And it's interesting that the mainstream UK/western media is quick to give platform to 'liberals' like Yair Lapid, yet chooses to ignore groups like Lehava and other far-right political organisations that have forged alliances with Likud.

Attempting to simplify the whole debate about Israel and Palestine, by just shouting 'anti-Semitic!' any time anyone dares criticise Israel, is crying wolf.

Applauds

Make your mind up John...

Its possible to both improve workers rights and still be predominately or overly pro the "corporate elite"/big business as the EU has been [ in the eyes of the person quoted]

Its not contradictory tbh its not even that difficult to grasp that it requires a clarification.

Wow:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-returning-to-politics-comeback-jeremy-corbyn-nutter-theresa-may-lightweight-a7427676.html

[img] [/img]

Obviously TB has realised that voters seem to be quite keen on narcissists these days.

Cyber physical, Jeremy? Ooooh, you tease.....

Suffice to say, his latest image issuance hasn't gone down well.

Indy has more details, apparently Branson has donated £25k (not the largest amount ever seen), offices rented and Nick Clegg is on-board for a full on anti-Brexit campaign

Cyber physical, Jeremy? Ooooh, you tease.....

[img] [/img]

Just saw this 🙂 What the hell is going on in the labour media dept? Is it completely beyond them to think of a simple message that people will understand? How about 'The tories are going to crash the economy with their reckless gamble on a brexit referendum'.

Daz the left have the bullsh.t bingo gold medal for talking in jargon. Just listen to 5 minutes of Russell Brand. If ever there was a less credible front man for a technology launch I'd like to see them.

Sadly for Labour Corbyn and Livingstones remarks about Castro a man who torutured Christians and Homosexuals overshadowed the above.

'The tories are going to crash the economy with their reckless gamble on a brexit referendum'.*

*Which is also Labour policy.

*Which is also Labour policy.

It may (bizarrely) be labour policy to support brexit, but the referendum was a tory creation. In much the same way that the tories said 'labour crashed the economy with their reckless borrowing', it shouldn't be too difficult for the geniuses in labour HQ to come up with a similar slogan along the lines of 'the tories crashed the economy with their stupid referendum'.

Just listen to 5 minutes of Russell Brand.

He's hardly a prominent voice of the left. In fact he's been completely silent since his embarrassing dalliance with Ed Miliband.

"In much the same way that the tories said 'labour crashed the economy with their reckless borrowing', it shouldn't be too difficult for the geniuses in labour HQ to come up with a similar slogan along the lines of 'the tories crashed the economy with their stupid referendum'."

Yup, in any sane world Labour would destroy the Govt over this Autumn statement. Unfortunately Labour can't point out the Govts fiscal incompetence because Labour are openly saying they're going to be billions worse.

2020 should be a sitter for Labour, it takes some kind of Leadership incompetence to miss this open goal.

Sadly for Labour Corbyn and Livingstones remarks about Castro a man who torutured Christians and Homosexuals overshadowed the above.

Even ninfan has identified the nature of most of the torture going on on Cuba:

[img] [/img]

Yup, in any sane world Labour would destroy the Govt over this Autumn statement.

Why? The Tories are borrowing more (to invest 😉 ) and for longer. Why would Labour be opposed to this? Prudence or ideology?

2020 should be a sitter for Labour, it takes some kind of Leadership incompetence to miss this open goal.

Only if they play the games of the right (which I think they should do)

Find a popular front man to say what the people want to hear (and leave out the stuff they don't). Could even doing it without much lying (better NHS, better working conditions and pay, investment etc,.).
Could even say you will control immigration (just don't tell anyone you are only thinking of a 1% change though)

Why? The Tories are borrowing more (to invest ) and for longer. Why would Labour be opposed to this? Prudence or ideology?

That's my point. Labour can't oppose it.

most of the torture going on on Cuba:

Yeah, but that's good torture, not the bad torture like what foreign 'regimes' do.

Sadly for Labour Corbyn and Livingstones remarks about Castro a man who torutured Christians and Homosexuals overshadowed the above.

I thought Trump came out as a Christian during the campaign?

That poster/tweet has now convinced me completely that the Labour Party is now actually a piece of abstract performance art, rather than a political party.

I expect Jezza's next move will to be to release a fragrance in time for christmas, with one of those massively expensively produced TV adverts that make absolutely no sense whatsoever

Labour cannot throw too many rocks re the Autumn statement as it's "spend spend" they want to do. The deficit was 100bn pa in 2010. If that hadn't been gotten under control we would be totally screwed by now. Labour tried to make a point that it had been 6 wasted years but to the contrary we are much better placed as a result. Had the deficit not have been somewhat under control there would be zero flex to invest and even harsher cuts required. The Newsnight piece from Middelsborough I posted on the EU thread has many messages Labour are bot hearing

[b]2020 should be a sitter for Labour[/b], it takes some kind of Leadership incompetence to miss this open goal.

That's not clear at all. All the data re: Brexit has been better than Remain predicted. If this continues and at the same time EU spirals deeper into the mire exiting the EU will look like incredible foresight. Tories are already seizing the middle ground with tax cuts and the Northern Powerhouse initiative could deliver (and if it does not they will blame Labour Mayors: win-win politically)

You are aware that the whole Northern Powerhouse thing is just a load of old bollocks, right?

Because everyone up here is.

It's just a totally cynical exercise in blame-storming. So that Tories get to blame labour councils for everything when they slash their already decimated budgets even further, so that they've only got the money available to empty people's bins every few weeks.

You'd think the Labour Party might want to point this out, wouldn't you?

But hey ho, they're busy with their cyber physical systems

Are there genuinely any Labour Party members/voters that think the Tories won't walk it at the next GE?

Yes. They're called Momentum. And they think that Jezza is going to lead a grateful nation unto the bright socialist uplands.

Who knows what they'd think if they hadn't stopped taking their medication

You'd think the Labour Party might want to point this out, wouldn't you?

So when Andy Burnham becomes Mayor of Greater Manchester is he going to expose the NP for the bollocks it is or follow the lead of Richard Leese and the rest of them in having his ego massaged by Westminster?

As for Corbyn, it's hardly a surprise that he's looking at post-capitalist concepts seeing as Paul Mason is (or was?) an advisor. Trouble is all that stuff is going to pan out over decades, not the next 4 years. Mechanisation is going to happen eventually, but I have no idea why he's talking about it now. If he really wants to tackle the issue then he could do a lot worse by announcing an intention to bring in a universal basic income, but he probably hasn't got the balls to do that.

I thought they'd realistically be looking at the following GE.

I thought they'd realistically be looking at the following GE.

"That's not clear at all."

I think it is. They were elected on a ticket of tightening the belt and they've ended up spending like it's going out of fashion and leaving it to our kids to pay the tab.

Blaming Brexit won't carry much weight cos they offered the Referendum.

Under different leadership Labour could go to town over that and walk 2020.

Under different leadership Labour could go to town over that and walk 2020.

There's still time. If Corbyn decides, as looks likely, not to oppose brexit, and it unravels in the way [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/26/theresa-may-fight-brexiters-britain-ruined ]many commentators predict [/url] it's highly likely he won't last til the next election. And then there's his health and the enduring idea that he'll step aside for a younger candidate once he's restored party democracy and entrenched the defeat of the blairites.

I can see Labour plummeting in England the same way they did in Scotland - who will benefit Greens, UKIP, Lib Dems, or perhaps Blair will invent a new party?

Corbyn just is not good enough to do anything other than talk to the diehard militants.

Greens are a fringe fruitloop party. They're as big as they'll ever get. UKIP for sure, if the don't implode, which seems unlikely. My bet is the Liberals. They can draw on half the country that the other parties aren't going to represent.

I think it is. They were elected on a ticket of tightening the belt and they've ended up spending like it's going out of fashion and leaving it to our kids to pay the tab.

The uncomfortable truth is that that *was* tightening the belt

That's how unbelievably massive government spending has grown to be.

Can you imagine, just imagine, for one second, if the Tory Government, on coming into power in May 2010, had actually cut government spending to match tax receipts?

Jesus, can you imagine what would have happened if they had put taxes up to maintain that level of spending? Lots not pretend this is adding a few pence onto tax for the wealthy, the government would have had to [b]double[/b] the entire national take of income tax, and still had a hole big enough that it required them to double inheritance tax and capital gains tax in order to make spending match receipts.

And all the time Labour were sitting there shouting that the only answer was spending even more 😯

Corbyns legacy [i]could[/i] be a refocused and electable Labour Party. That assumes 2020 is written off and the party concentrates on winning the vote of the currently non-franchised. Chasing the soft Tory vote is not a platform for a successful alternative.

I would think that it is (wrt getting elected at least).

Can you imagine, just imagine, for one second, if the Tory Government, on coming into power in May 2010, had actually cut government spending to match tax receipts?

Jesus are we back to comparing govt finances to those of a household? How long before the gold is brought up? 🙂

I would think that it is (wrt getting elected).

On what evidence? DId you miss the last two elections?

The problem is that the Momentum mob are in the process of having moderate labour MP's deselected to be replaced by totally unelectable Corbynite nutjobs. If they succeed in this, then it's all over for Labour. They'll disappear up their own politically correct arse in a cloud of virtue signalling.

I bet the Lib Dems can't believe their bloody luck!

They're already laying claim to the 48% who watched Corbyn's "let's trigger article 50 now!!" Nonsense the day after the referendum, and said "erm... WTF?!!!!"

That assumes 2020 is written off and the party concentrates on winning the vote of the currently non-franchised.

I would think that it is (wrt getting elected).
On what evidence? DId you miss the last two elections?

Can I count SNP as soft Tory?

Can I count SNP as soft Tory?

No.

But seriously I believe that there are people in UK voting for the Tories from the perspective of no reasonable alternative in the last 2 elections. I think that many in middle England are disenfranchised by the Tory approach, and while I find some of Corbyn's stances admirable, in reality he is not up to it. He is no Bernie Sanders (who was also not up to it).

Scotland just had a viable alternative.

Scotland just had a viable alternative.

We just voted to leave the union. UKIP seem a lot more successful than the SNP. If we had PR they'd have the seats to reflect it.

Labour's only hope is to go down the populist anti-establishment route, but without the racism. Sanders offers a shining example. Corbyn won the leadership off the back of massively strong anti-establshment sentiment among labour members and supporters, but he's failed to translate that to the wider public, largely because he's a terrible communicator and obviously still not fully committed to it. It's not really his fault, I think he tries but you can't turn a shy bookish academic type into a passionate rabble rousing leader who people identify with. Once someone like that emerges from the left (god knows who, there isn't anyone there now like that) then I reckon he'd step aside.

turn a shy bookish academic

He's not an academic. He hasn't done anything (other than vote against his own party)

If UKIP doesn't implode, then they're going to take an awful lot of seats off labour in the North. Ask the voters who just voted out what they think about Jezzas Big Data? How relevant they think that is to their lives?

****ing clueless!

He's not an academic.

Yes I know that, that's why I said 'academic type'. That's how he comes across to people, both in the way he talks and looks.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

And, possibly my favourite,

[img] [/img]

That's how unbelievably massive government spending has grown to be.

Can you imagine, just imagine, for one second, if the Tory Government, on coming into power in May 2010, had actually cut government spending to match tax receipts?

Jesus, can you imagine what would have happened if they had put taxes up to maintain that level of spending? Lots not pretend this is adding a few pence onto tax for the wealthy, the government would have had to double the entire national take of income tax, and still had a hole big enough that it required them to double inheritance tax and capital gains tax in order to make spending match receipts.

Ring fencing is the problem. If you ring fence the popular spending like NHS and Pensions you have to endure crippling hardship everywhere else. ...but if you don't ring fence popular spending you don't get elected.

CFH 🙂 Nearly as ridiculous as the Ed-stone

So another spectacular own goal as Corbyn has announced he will attend Castro's funeral. That's going to come back and bite him come General Election.

So another spectacular own goal as Corbyn has announced he will attend Castro's funeral.

Corbyn has announced he will attend Castro's funeral.

😀

If he does he can catch up with his old buddy Jerry Adams.