It's funny, how if this is all about immigration, then why did the places with the most immigration, ie the mahjority of large cities, largely vote to remain?
It'd bugger all to do with immigration.
It'd bugger all to do with immigration.
😯
seosamh - everyone over 60 in my family voted leave. Every single one of them did so because 'we've had enough of immigration'. This is a small sample but this has a lot to do with immigration sadly.
perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.
perception of immigration is what it is, not actual immigration. If it was actual immigration, manchestier, london, liverpool, glasgow, edinburgh would all have voted out, they didnt.
+1
The whole immigration argument is incredibly sinister, I and plenty others want no part of it.
And yes it is there in the like of glasgow too, I'd to walk away from a couple of people (npo voters) in work over it on friday morning. They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.
Whether it is perception or not a number of leave voters identify immigration as the issue. Of the leave voters I know none of them identified anything else as a reason to vote leave.
Given 25% of doctors in the NHS in which I work are non UK it makes me feel somewhat disappointed.
EDIT
It'd bugger all to do with immigration.
Thats right, keep ignoring them, keep repeating the party line and keep reading out the tractor statistics
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That's a nice chart of utter bullshit.
They are utterly ignorant. And wrong.
This is a totally serious question.
What makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?
I lived in govanhill for the last 6 years of my life, I've had family connections to the area since long before I was born, so I have plenty of real life experience of living in the most multicultural part of glasgow. Not their near 100% white schemes.
Which means what?
That they have to like and accept multikulti, because you don't mind it?
Again, what makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?
It proves my assertion above that their opinion is based on perception, not real experience.
It doesn't matter what its based on
they still have an opinion, they still have a belief, they still have a vote
so what makes yours more important that theirs?
It'd bugger all to do with immigration.
Believe me it was. Over and over again it was the one reason for Brexit that kept coming up with my friends ( working class ones ) and customers.
ninfan's post's hit the mood of many Brexit voters head on. Like him I could list many examples of how "real" people have lost out to immigration. The're not racists or stupid just that their opinions have been formed by actual life experiences.
Ninfan nails it.
You can't sneer at people, call them offensive names like racists, bigots, knickledraggers and idiots and then wonder why they haven't engaged with you.
One thing we repeatedly hear working in sales is "you have 2 ears and one mouth. Use them proportionally". The politicians and the chattering classes would do well to heed this advice. If a lot of people (I.e. not a few loons but a significant number as we've seen) express similar opinions, concerns and perceptions of their world (and remember perception IS reality), those in a position of influence need to listen, absorb, understand and work on the issues raised, not shout them down as we have seen and continue to see.
shoosh ninfan.
Lets take a random example.
stoke on trent.
69.4% out
96.3% of the population of Stoke-on-Trent were born in the UK.
ashfeild
69.8% out.
98% english.
@ninfan I admire your persistance but they are not listening and are in denial.
IMHO London central voted IN as people believed their jobs are at risk from an Leave vote, what's interesting is most of the commuter belt was much more even with many Leave areas too.
Theres little logic in your argument Joseph -
Windsor and maidenhead - 90.2% White, Voted to remain (53.9%)
neighbouring Slough - [b]45.7% White[/b], voted to leave [b](54.3%)[/b]
(I recognise that I am using colour as a proxy for immigration, which is over simplistic, but I haven't found the 'born in the uk' statistics
Go figure 😆
Which goes to prove that's it a very complex issue. Trying to say immigration is thee issue is disingenuous at best.
What I'm hearing from disaffected Labour MPs is basically "we need a godlike figure who the proles will blindly follow, Corbyn ain't it."
David Miliband is back in the country, new MP for Batley?, the Messiah for labour? Mugging up on Neil Kinnocks battles with militant?
You know how race hate laws work - that its classed as a racial incident if it is perceived by the victim as being racially motivated
Well, why not look at Brexit the same way - that the vote is classed as being motivated by immigration if the voter who actually cast it perceives that they were motivated by immigration, rather than how some sneering public sector lefty who's never met them thinks they ought to have been motivated.
On that basis, it really was very much to do with immigration.
Which goes to prove that's it a very complex issue.
Very true, it reaches across political divides like no other issue with each voting for the same thing for polar opposite reasons. This is also what makes the post leave transition so complex as neither the conservative or labour parties have united views
David Miliband is back in the country
I thought he was the right choice instead of Ed
Andy Burnham would be the front runner I think
Enjoy an independent England and Wales, Ninfan, lock the doors, start the repatriations, see ye.
neighbouring Slough - 45.7% White, voted to leave (54.3%)
At a guess that's n'th generation immigrants wanting to pull up the ladder behind them.
That they have to like and accept multikulti, because you don't mind it?Again, what makes your opinion any more valid than theirs?
Wow - is that what it comes to? In Britain we have a significant electorate who vote based on their dislike of other cultures, which drives the most important decisions facing our country? Depressing, or what?
Joe, perhaps you missed page 1 of the BS "why vote leave" document
Why should we Vote Leave on 23 June
• The PM’s deal leaves the EU in charge of the same things after his negotiation as before (no really)
• It is not legally binding - the European Court can tear it up the day after the referendum
• This is dangerous. We will keep sending at least £350 million a week abroad 😉
• [b]Immigration will continue out of control putting public services like the NHS under strain[/b]
• [b]The European Court will be in charge of our borders, immigration, asylum [/b]and even our intelligence services
• If we Vote Leave, we will take back control and can spend our money on our priorities
Bugger all to do with immigration? How could we have got it so wrong?
Thm, if you're happy for it all to go down that, incredibly sinister, route... All the very best of luck to you.
Bring this back to corbyn and away from ninfan etcs sinister plans.
Do the PLP really believe that ignoring the result of the grassroots election and going tonto on Corbyn is really a good move? Considering it's perceived that it was the labour grassroots that revolted and caused all this mess?
Like most, I am extremely unhappy about it. Shameful campaign. Please don't insult people with denials.
sitting back and letting the lunatics take over isn't really an option.
Thats right - far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them, because they're stupid and poor so will still vote for Labour at the next election anyway.
Anyway - agreed no mileage in expecting honesty - back to Corbyn while he is still around.
Bet he wished he had never agreed to bring some debate to the leadership election after all.
far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them
Have you ever tried to reason with someone from a Newcastle council estate about why they shouldn't use the words ****s, darkies and puffs? I have many times. I admire your willingness to engage with and understand these people but how you do that without lowering yourself to that level? Because the only way to even get to first base with this sort of ignorant bigotry is to excuse and appease it. I gave up on that a long time ago I'm afraid. If racists don't want people to call them racists, there's a very simple solution.
Back to Corbyn. Having voted for him in September as one of the £3ers, I won't be doing so again. It was a worthy cause and experiment, but the brexit vote has changed the political landscape so much that luxuries like Corbyn can no longer be afforded. Not sure who next, Heidi Alexander maybe?
EDIT: And WTF was Tom Watson doing at Glastonbury while all this has been going on?
Back to Corbyn. Having voted for him in September as one of the £3ers, I won't be doing so again. It was a worthy cause and experiment, but the brexit vote has changed the political landscape so much that luxuries like Corbyn can no longer be afforded.
Interesting, I think it was Hilary Benn who said much the same thing about people who'd voted for Corbyn but would not do so again.
Hilary Benn has proven to be as disloyal, disruptive and egotistical as his father was.
No great surprise.
I don't think I trust Andy Burnham.
Wonderful work on Hillsborough, but a bit Blairy for me.
So I'll vote for JC, because despite some reservations, I believe he is fundamentally more decent, honest and true to the ideals of our party than any of the alternatives.
I've never once generalised about out voters in that way.ninfan - Member
Thats right - far better to call them nasty names and try to ignore them, because they're stupid and poor so will still vote for Labour at the next election anyway.
I don't have 2 bob to rub together beyond my wages, I voted in, I'm well aware blaming the poor or the old or which ever group is an incredibly simplistic and unhelpful view.
I however, am perfectly fine with calling you and your ilk racist, you know the ones opening proliferating this utterly sinister immigration agenda. To go straight to the point, **** you.
😆
I believe he is fundamentally more decent, honest and true to the ideals of our party than any of the alternatives.
If there's one thing the EU referendum has taught us it's that we don't want people like that.
Lying and deceitful politicians is what we want more of.
I'd vote Corbyn again.
I think if there is another leadership challenge and Corbyn wins some people will need to give up their seats.
Some polling (maybe Ashcroft?) said 75% of Labour voters voted remain.
Tbh that wouldn't surprise me considering biggest in votes where the cities.
I think if there is another leadership challenge and Corbyn wins.....
If it goes to a ballot how will he get nominated? I don't think the rules allow for the incumbent to automatically go onto the ballot paper without the required amount of nominations.
Last time he only got the required amount of nominations in the final last minutes. And that was only because it was considered that he stood no chance at all of winning.
The Parliamentary Labour Party doesn't give a toss what Labour Party members want, only what they want matters.
For most of them deselection is a completely unrealistic threat.
Labour Party structures are really rotten and corrupt thanks to Tony Blair, a fact which few people seem to appreciate.
