Jeremy Corbyn

More revisionism. Anyone can look at the long term trends in voter share of the main parties. Since the end of WW2, labour has seen a greater decline than the Tories. Except for......guess when?? And guess just how close the share of he-who-cannot-be-mentioned delivered as leader was to LT highs. And now....???

The facts can't be altered unless you want to revise history. TJ I take my hat off to you, the new username is perfect.

For the non-revisionists

http://www.ukpolitical.info/ConvLab.htm

One thing the public hate above all else is public disunity in political parties.

You mean like people consistently being against the party leadership? Yeah. People hate that....

🙂

Cmon Cpn be fair, as we were told a few pages back

In contrast Corbyn has been tirelessly supporting and fighting for the Labour Party for decades.

And facts cant be altered (apparently)

'Tis true CFH Remember Major and "the bastards" Don't matter what party - disunity is a vote loser.

[img] [/img]

Yep all those votes against PFI, Iraq War etc shame on him.

Blair won but I think it was a trick that cant be repeated every G.E. for evermore. A more palatable version of the Tories he was for 3 elections, a clever ploy which coincided with some shit Tory leaders.

But people now will just vote Tory if they want Tory. Labour had lost the ability to be critical of the Tories as the Tories couukd just say for example "you started the privatization of the NHS" or "Academies were your idea" or "selling the Royal Mail was your idea" etc etc

Members knew it and wanted it, nobody wanted to have another 5 years of so so opposition with Cooper or Burnham or Kendall.

Stop being so naive. The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot.

Aye - and Labour were never going to win with Cooper, Burnham or Kedall - and certainly not with Smith

The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and [s]having bragging rights over the other lot.[/s] actually being able to make some of your policies happen.

Or, just remain a protest party, sniping from the sidelines.
It's not about winning a game, it's about being able to actually do something.

That's an interesting speech that Corbyn made at the anti NATO rally. He really seems to be saying that NATO is responsible for the Cold War??? And NATO should not have got involved in the Balkan war (the UN were so effective, weren't they?) ??? From the tone of the speech Corbyn sounds like he'd want Britain to leave NATO! Apart from wanting world peace, what are his foreign policies ?

If politicians answered all the hypothetical questions put to them there would no end to them, that's the beauty of a hypothetical question - you can change them is any way you want to catch out your opponent, they don't refer to actual real circumstances.

Would you be prepared to go to war with Russia ?" is a pointless and rather silly question, just like answering "yes", or "no" for that matter, would be a pointless and rather silly answer.

It's a sad reflection on British politics that support for a politician might be dependent on their willingness to go to war with Russia.

I'm glad he didn't answer it. Let's focus on grown-up politics, although I know it's a novel idea.

The question was at a debate, where, you know, politicians are meant to be answering all kinds of questions, on where they stand on all kinds of issues. Corbyn couldn't be honest and say he was anti NATO, as in that video a few pages back.

Oh another thing, don't expect Corbyn to automatically, do the right thing, and step down if he loses the next election, I read that if he still had his precious 'mandate' he could stay on as party leader, rejoice now 😉

Alexander for example refused to stand alongside the junior doctors in their strike - a strike that had the support of the majority of the public. How much stronger would both the labour party and the doctors have been if we had seen the entire PLP on the picket lines?

maybe she didn't agree with the reasons for the strike

the doctors didn't even agree with the BMA negotiating team

and if JC wins a general election will the GP's strike when he removes all private providers from the NHS?

People voted for Mrs Thatcher not least as a rejection of the more traditionally left Labour Party's track record including having to be bailed out by the IMF, numerous power cuts due to striking miners and piles of uncollected rubbish in the streets. Those "working class" Labour voters who contributed to this could not have acored a bigger own goal if they had tried.

Referencing Mrs T in regard to Corbyn really is taking things back to what where very much to the bad old days of the 1970's

@yunki one of the reasons I am against uncontrolled immigration is it lowers the wages of working class people (as I said numerous times before EU migrants are no threat to my line of work at all) and contributes to higher levels of unemployment as jobs are taken in part by new migrants rather than existing citizens. Then we have the financial consequences of this where we get the complaints of "growing income inequality" and increasing demands on welfare as full time work doesn't pay enough. I do find it auite bizarre that the right are blamed for growing income inequaloty when its uncontrolled migration and a race to the bottom of lowest price that is driving dowm wages at the lower end

Cmon

someone in the know must be able to explain how this Cooperative Party thing is going to work....

@futon - if Corbyn makes to a general elction in 2020 we'll be seeing plenty more speeches from the archives like that one. It's a massive open goal which the Tories and Lib Dems will be only too happy to score into, again and again.

Cooperative Party

Just like Kinder Gentler Politics. Co-operate with us or you're out

@yunki one of the reasons I am against uncontrolled immigration is it lowers the wages of working class people (as I said numerous times before EU migrants are no threat to my line of work at all) and contributes to higher levels of unemployment as jobs are taken in part by new migrants rather than existing citizens.

Sorry Jambas thats still a crock. Read last week's report from the Rowntree Foundation

It's not about winning a game, it's about being able to actually do something.

DO something worthwhile Cpt not just do something

Being a little less tory than tories is not really doing anything much- certainly to the eyes of the lefties. We dont share your win at any cost and damn the principles mantra. DId not end up to well for Davey boy what with the referendum and all that...or for the country for that matter - though the later is debatable depending on your EU view.

someone in the know must be able to explain how this Cooperative Party thing is going to work....

based on the previous chairman, coke and hookers!!!

DO something worthwhile

Agreed! I thought that was implied, but apologies if not.

Being in opposition is a fine and noble thing, if you are able to effectively oppose, but surely the goal should be to be in a position to do something. Something worthwhile, obviously! Lots of it.

You can't do that in opposition.

We dont share your win at any cost and damn the principles mantra

Not my mantra.

It's not about winning a game, it's about being able to actually do something [i]that the party membership and voters want you to do[/i].

FTFY

Given that Owen Smith and his supporters have now accepted* most of Corbyn's policies and disowned the strategies of the last two failed elections it would appear the win at any cost approach has now been abandoned.

*A huge assumption of course, and one that the members don't look ready to swallow, with good reason.

Given that Owen Smith and his supporters have now accepted* most of Corbyn's policies and disowned the strategies of the last two failed elections it would appear the win at any cost approach has now been rejected by everyone.

True, but very unusual to opt for lose at any cost approach - who does that serve?

Plus we really do need an opposition at some point - a shadow cabinet would be a start

True, but very unusual to opt for lose at any cost approach - who does that serve?

Totally agree. But is that the strategy of Corbyn or his PLP and media opponents?

Plus we really do need an opposition at some point - a shadow cabinet would be a start

Totally agree again. Unfortunately most of the original shadow cabinet through their dummies out the pram and now they're bogged down with another leadership election.

True also CPt but one cannot capitulate on ones principles just to get power as that renders its meaningless.

The goal is to persuade the electorate of the justness of your ethos and the merits of your goals

i think we can all agree the Labour party is having a spectacular fail on that front, it is and is factionalized to breaking point.TBH, for me, after the first few months, social contract, minimum wage etc Blair did nothing much a Tory would not have done. PPI, Academy schools,Iraq etc I saw very little left wing in him at all or anything to feel passionate about- not quite as ****ty as the ****s would be my somethingion of him.
Its not something i aspire to massively, we are better than that IMHO, but its not as bad as the tories unfettered- from my perspective obviously

I am not really sure how you can object to a principled stance though you may well object to the principles stood for.

I dont think it will win though but i dis not mind seeing the experiment played out. Problem is the PLP and the forces of the media have ensured that we can see the result now.

EDIT:

Not my mantra.

Totally agree. But is that the strategy of Corbyn or his PLP and media opponents?

264 pages have been spent (not) answering that one 😀

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

Look North, [s]young[/s] old man, look North.....

* not forgetting that these terms are well past their sell by date

No apology needed, Junky my old prawn and pickle sandwich! 🙂

I am not really sure how you can object to a principled stance though you may well object to the principles stood for.

Well this is just it, isn't it? I admire people who stand on principle, even if I disagree with those principles. The key here is to get enough people to agree with enough of your principles to elect you, thus allowing you to actually act on those principles. Otherwise, they're just a one cheek sneak of a fart in a jacuzzi.

True and this is the grip of the dilemma here.
Corbyn almost certainly is unelectable - not necessarily his fault but he needs either the PLP or the press and he has neither.
He is screwed and so are the party.

I dont see anyone we , the broad church of the left, can unite behind. The PLP hate corbyn, I [ we?] hate them. Its a mess.

I almost wish for David Milliband ....its that bad.

Corbyn really acted on his principles re unilateralism didn't he? He used his power to change policy at conference as leader, and to whip his troops into voting against renewal of trident, did't he? He really brought all that conviction to bear didn't he - so effective! What a leader! 😉

😀

Time for one of my favourite cartoons of recent time (this I may have posted before)

[img] [/img]

David Miliband. I dislike him and actually don't see him being viewed that differently to his brother by the electorate BUT I wonder if he would have got the RW press on side?

dazh - Member
Stop being so naive. The only thing that counts is winning the game, being in power, and having bragging rights over the other lot.

Eh? I must be really ****ing naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal had no chance of winning a G.E

I almost wish for David Milliband ....its that bad.

But in recent times, the most successful party in UK politics has abandoned principles, deceived and happily delivered RW* policies with LW* rhetoric. And the voters have lapped it up in spades.

And that's what I would suggest Corbyn is changing. Obviously not enough to win an election any time soon, and certainly not with him at the helm. But if that change is indeed what is happening, then it's worth the long haul. I think many in the labour party, and outside given the number of new members they've acquired, agree with this, and it's why those who don't still don't understand what's going on. I hate to use the word as all sorts of hysteria and cliche is attached to it, but what is going on right now is quite revolutionary. The labour party is now the largest political party in Europe, with a membership and leadership (even the non-leadership if you take Smith at his word) united against the status quo of the past 40 years. The fact that this could happen here, in perhaps the most neo-liberal and rightwing country in Europe (or perhaps the world), is pretty amazing. It's hardly a surprise the upheaval it's causing.

Eh? I must be really **** naive. Cooper, Burnham and Kendal or anybody else off that conveyor belt had no chance of winning a G.E

There is no sarcasm smiley.

The labour boys are v quiet on this whole Cooperative thingy so far. Do they not read the broadsheets?

So is it going to be

(Back to the) Labour and Cooperative Party
The Labour and/or Coopperatuve Party
The Labour or the Cooperatuve Party
HM LT Opposition
None the above?

As I have posted before I thought David Milliband would have been the right leader with tye potential of creating a party I might vote for. I am certain he would,have won oevr the middle ground swing voters necessary to win power.

TMH I don't read much from JRF, its a politically motivated organisation with a clear agenda. Do you see the chart which shows EU migration jumping from 15k pa for 200k+ plus from 2003 and how those new EU countries provide workers with average incomes lower than the UK average, they are taking low paid jobs and depressing wages of existing workers. It really isn't rocket science (which btw the way is a proper sciemce unlike Economics which is at best a hybid science and arts subject full of conjecture)

Cooperative Party. Maybe its to do with stamps ?

Interesting dash although I have a different interpretataion at least with respect to principles and telling the truth. IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics. There are no ST answers to how we get ourselves out of the levels of excess leverage. This plays into the hands of protest parties of any political persuasion as long as they are not the incumbents. So they spout BS and lies and pretend these are the answers. And this is lapped up by those desperate for the ST answered that do not exist. The worst part of all of this is that xenophobia, racism and isolationalism are common themes.

In this context the Labour Party shenanigans are merely an amusing sideshow and distraction from the more concerning political developments around us.Of course, when this spills over into silly comments re NATO then it does become very serious.

Jambas I appreciate the you prefer not to read much on this issue 😉 hence your habit of making incorrect statements about the impact of immigration. But if the RF are likely to have any bias it is more likely to be wanting to show the effect that you describe. That the reject your hypothesis instead is all the more telling.

dazh - Member
There is no sarcasm smiley.

Ah yes you would have made more sense with a sarcasm smiley! Try ;~) if yours isn't working.

😉

IMO we are seeing exactly the opposite to what you suggest, hence the tag lines #posttruthpolitics

Possibly. It's certainly on a knife-edge, and possibly explains why the battle lines are so distinct even though the winning post is so far off. For my money I don't see this (small) revolution succeeding, there's just too much aligned against it and things probably need to get a lot worse before it has a chance of expanding beyond well-meaning lefty types and the younger generation. Maybe it'll simply be a case of demographics? Wait 10-20 years and most of the baby-boomers will be gone and in their place a new generation of people paying off the debts left to them by their elders.

Try ;~) if yours isn't working.

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I'm obviously not being partisan enough 🙂

Not sure how waiting for the old lefties to die off will help. The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

Maybe the ones who stand to inherit all the wealth they've accrued at the expense of future generations. I'm not sure that will continue though when it starts to disappear.

The new generation is more right wing than their parents.

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

Given my previous comments on this thread I assumed it would have been obvious. I'm obviously not being partisan enough

Ha- to me you are the balanced one on this thread (hence my misconstruing you)

Actually you are wrong on them being more right wing
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx
AGE CON LAB
18-24 27 43
25-34 33 36
35-44 35 35
45-54 36 33
55-64 37 31
65+ 47 23

I wonder if more lefties actually vote in their youth skewing the figures, or if it's just still the case people just move right a they grow up.

When JC wins (again)...what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

EVB - early plans (at least among MPs) laid out in yesterday's Sunday Times. Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party. A spilt is increasingly likely, the details are currently under discussion. Labour supporters will presumably make a choice, not that it is likely to make much difference in the short term.

@thm... interesting. I'll Google that article. A split seems the most sensible way forward and allows MP's and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp, instead of stagnantion caused by fighting.. I wonder if the Green party would join with the Corbyn camp...they have the most similar values.

Hence my questions re the Cooperative Party.

Its an interesting thought that the current MP's could effectively cross the floor to the cooperative party.

Then Corbyn would be faced with the challenge of abandoning a 90 year old electoral pact that was at the heart of the movement.

(edit, not sure if there is a cap on number of co-op mp's in the cheltenham agreement, anyone?)

A split seems the most sensible way forward

and allows MP's and voters alike an opportunity for progression in each camp,

On the plus side the opposition will be no less effective 😉

So they will all resign en masse and stand again for the new party and see what voters think? Is it not more likely they will ignore the labour voters and also the electorate who voted for a labour MP

Well, Labour Party never made Oswald Mosely do it when he joined them...

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

Is there precedent for parties pledging to cooperate? A pre-election coalition?

The existing agreement between Labour and the co-operative party is probably the best precedent, no?

When JC wins (again)...what are all the anti- Corbyn, middle-ground, neo-liberalist Labour supporters going to do? Will you switch party, accept the vote or something else?

erm, yeah, I'm about as comfortable with 'neoliberalist' as you'd expect a traditional old leftie to be but hey, if the cap fits...

As a long-term party member, barely active these days other than via monthly standing order, I'll stick about whilst carnage and electoral oblivion and minimum three tory ge victories ensue, until some sense of reality starts to return. Like last time. And I won't say 'I told you so.'

(With fptp a split only plays into the hands of those with no interest in power through parliament. And parliament is where the power is. Someone asked above about what oppositions can do - one thing is rewrite legislation in committee. Something Owen Smith has apparently done a fair bit of on benefits, corb not so much.)

Tmh I am very happy with the accuracy of my statements on the impact of of immigration and how the nature of that immigration have changed over the last 20 years as the EU has changed. Even that article showed that clearly, they just chose to get the smoke and mirrors out and confuse their analysis.

New Statesmen artcile by Chi Onwurah (ex shadow cabinet). Have we done this ? Some stunning quotes, here are just a few;

There is nothing socialist about incompetence, I said in explaining my decision to vote no-confidence in Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership. But since then, it has been made clear to me that many prefer incompetent out-of-power socialism to what they perceive to be the alternative.

Jeremy made it impossible for two of the very few BME women MPs to do their jobs properly, undermining both us and Labour’s role as the voice of opposition to the government.

Unfortunately it takes more than protesting other peoples’ prejudice to bring about change. It takes organisation, communication and action. That is what has been lacking under his leadership.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/labour-mp-any-other-job-jeremy-corbyn-would-have-faced-industrial-tribunal

In September Jeremy gave me the job of shadow minister for culture and the digital economy. In the January reshuffle he gave half the job to Thangam Debbonaire. As the leader, he had every right to do so; unfortunately he omitted to tell her or me. When he realised what he had done, he gave the role back to me, without telling Thangam. So far, so annoying, but to be fair uncertainty is part of every reshuffle. However Jeremy then went on for the next two months refusing my insistence that he speak to Thangam, indeed refusing to speak to either of us, whether directly or through the shadow cabinet, the whips, or his own office. No one knew what he wanted us to do, no one was clear on what we should be doing.

😐

Same cock up after same cock up reported like its news every week.

Which has been more damaging to the Labour Party Corbyn's cock ups or the coup attempt?

Smith and Khan have said "we were not part of any coup/turmoil" (turmoil was Khan's word) implicit criticism of those that were.

I think the Labour Party will have to wash some coup/plotters dirty linen before next leadership election. Maybe Angela Eagle can write something like

"I was told I would be sole leadership contender, they even showed me a website) angela4leader.co.uk. Then all of a sudden I was ditched, I was told that a straight man would have more chance thana gay woman"

I'd just like to ask the Jeremy enthusiasts (and for that matter, the Owen supporters) on here, given that the rag taggle embarrassment that is the Labour Party and it's forthcoming adoption of policies designed to turn the UK into the next Socialist failed state, hasn't a hope in hell of being elected, of what use is it?

Can I respond with a few questions of my own woppit...

Is all of this hatred for Corbyn a modern day equivalent of the JFK assassination? Thousands of Neo-Con Oswald's cowering feverishly at their computer screens ?

Do people find the idea of equal rights for poorer people as abhorrent as people found the idea of equal rights for african americans?

Of what use is the desire to hold back the tide of progress?

No Yunki (if I may reply) its much simpler, much much simpler

The leader of HM Opposition is an important job
The current incumbent is not up to the task and is unable to fulfil this part of his mandate effectively
A new leader is required - obviously
But the options appear very limited/non-existent
Hence the problem....

The rest is just noise, exaggerated massively for effect.

"progress" implies an improvement/step forward. Current debacle is just the opposite.

cool 🙂

Yunki Corbyn has far too much baggage, no suitable leadership skills (none, zero), is a magnate for those ready to dish out agressive abuse to his opponents and the only chance the extreme left have of gaining any influence by hijacking a national political party. If the Greens or SWP had any real popularity they would be a real political force.

We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop. We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system. There will always be differences in how successful people are, not least based upon the real life education and environment parents provide. The world is changing rapidly, its population growing exponentially. There are many people living with very little, what we have we are very forunate to have and we should recognise this and understand that there is a relatively unlimited supply of cheap labour willing to do all our jobs.

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Because of the amazing mountain bike trails?

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there

Are you denying that there's an inequality problem?

How much inequality is ok?

Jamba facts part 47.

We donot live in one of the most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.

Corbyn is not of the far left

Greens hold political power in Scotland.

"We live in one of the most egalitarian and libertarian countries in the world. Full stop."

😆

How can I become Head of State?

"We already have equal opportunities in education, in health care and in our justice system."

😆

If I want to send my children to Eton but have no money, how can I do that?

If I have an illness that isn't life threatening, what's the quickest way to get treatment?

If I'm non-white, female, disabled and/or gay, why am I far less likely to get paid the same as a straight, able bodied white man?

You really don't have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue. 🙄

You really don't have a clue about the world the rest of us live in, Jamby. Not a clue.

I honestly think that's a key driver for right-wing ideology.

Why if our country is so unequal and bad for poor people are there millions of citizens of other poorer countries (inside and outside the EU) who are so keen to come here ?

Err..Because they aren't being bombed?

If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of 'Labour Party'?

Any MP wandering over to a 'Cooperative party' is risking their own seat. I've worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.

"If a split does happpen, who owns the moniker of 'Labour Party'?"

The Labour party and it's members. Not those who decide to ignore the mandate of the elected leader, and leave. Because they'd be 80 or so people, against hundreds of thousands.

Pretty simple really.

People come here for the age old reason of opportunity. Also on the whole the UK is a pretty nice place to live, it doesn't mean it is perfect though and we should stop trying to improve it. However, IMO Corbyn doesn't have the answers to improve it.

"However, IMO Corbyn doesn't have the answers to improve it."

He's provided plenty of 'answers', which the mainstream media etc have routinely ignored. Answers so good, that Owen Smith has almost universally 'adopted' them. 😆

As for 'leadership'; it's clear that Corbyns aim was to create the necessary schism that will see Labour return to the left, and the Blairites left out in the political wilderness. He's doing a fantastic job at that, and gaining increasing party support. No wonder the right are so scared of him!

any MP wandering over to a 'Cooperative party' is risking their own seat. I've worked on many an election and the typical voter (i.e. not STW) will vote for the party name, not the individual. You would lose an awful lot of votes by using a different name.

Yes, but srely that's why they are already officially listed as "Labour and Cooperative party candidate" and get to use the labour emblem on the ballot paper

I love when people attack Jambas for his abuse of facts and then do exactly the same thing! The hypocrisy is breathtaking although not unusual

e most equal societies on earth. Ours is very unequal compared to most of Europe. We do not have equal opportunities in healthcare education or the justice system. In all those with money have better outcomes.

A simple check of the facts illustrates that our level of income inequality is almost exactly on the EU average. On top of this our cash benefits systems further reduces the level of inequality in disposable income, although the impact of this is variable over time. It's a shame for the revisionists that the reality is so far removed from their rhetoric.

Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary. Approx 1/3 of pupils at independent schools receive financial support. The uniform looks a little uncomfortable though, so perhaps wouldn't recommend it!!

Health? How do you manage unlimited demands with limited supply? At the most basic level you can ration by waiting, price or a combination of the two, We use the combination approach and apparently we have the best system in the world, or so the medics tell me. Jezza has no magic bullet for that one.

ok...

I dunno enough politics to ascertain whether or not Corbyn has the potential to be a good leader, although the backlash from the right leaning contingency would seem to indicate that he is a massive threat 🙂 and I dunno if he could ever wield enough power to address this country's inequality issues

What I'm really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?
What do you hope to achieve with antiquated 'blame the poor' schtick?

Surely there aren't that many toffs on the forum?

what gives?
what's your motivation?

There clearly isn't a shortage of funds, it's just that there's a relatively small group of very sick puppies that have an unhealthy obsession with hording, and they happen to privileged enough to horde cash

"A simple check of the facts"

Which 'facts' are those then?

A simple look around the real world, illustrates that this is a nonsense.

"Eton? Apply for a shcolarhsip or bursary."

And statements like this shows just how out of touch you are with reality. That you clearly didn't get my point, proves this. 🙄

I won't bother with any other genuine facts. You can't even deal with the made up ones. 😆

What I'm really interested in is why the most outspoken folk on here that are opposed to greater equality, deny equality issues or are completely indifferent are so desperately keen to protect the interests of the wealthy elite?

Any evidence of this ? Inaccurate points re equality have been addressed as they should be, otherwise I see little evidence of what you suggest, We live in a society with a progressive tax system that plays an important (if imperfect) role in addressing inequality of income outcomes. Of course, all of this assumes that equality of outcome is a moral absolute....(which it isn't)

I think you will find that like most politics in the UK there is broad consensus re the ends but marginal differences in the means, That's a characteristic of our society.