Forum menu
so then what were we to think of South Africa and the apartheid government?
We should not think the white electors were largely racist then?
Less than half of them voted for any given president. But they don't even make the rules and foreign policy and whatnot. Entrenched opinions are what run the show really.
@ratswithwings, you're right American is not "a race", but that doesn't matter:
The UN does not define "racism", however it does define "racial discrimination": According to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,
the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or [u]national[/u] or ethnic origin ...
it is obvious any country would be considered a race or else saying all ****stanis are something derogatory...... would not be racist
the race relations act here also specifies nationality
Anti-Americanism seems an acceptable racism to certain people, strangely though, that racism usually comes from the very same people who throw the accusation so freely at others when it suits.
Depends what you mean by anti americanism. You can oppose what they stand for , represent or do without actually being racist.
i am not keen on what the state Israel does.
I assume i can criticise what Israel does without being accused of racism? well you would think but not even on STW can you do this.
They have the right to free speech and to bear arms. Best guarantee against evil government.
Great speech. I liked that.
Americans? It's a big country, really ****ing big. I've been a few times. I'd say attitudes within the country are different in the same way that attitudes in different parts of Europe are different.
On the whole I've found Americans to be extremely friendly and fairly open minded.
Oh, and if you never want to have to buy yourself a drink, wear military fatigues.
so what
I actually found the uncritical reverence for anyone in the military a bit wearing after a while. They think everyone in the military's a hero, which considering how bloated their military is, probably includes a fair few paper shufflers like myself. The first few people shaking your hand and thankIng you are a pleasant change from the UK, where people tend to assume you're a parking attendant or paintballer or something. Then it gets tedious, as you have to listen to another set of tales from some old fart, and be treated at length to his bizarre world views, which he naturally assumes you share.
The US is like any other country, it has good and bad points and people.
WARNING - POSSIBLE TJ FODDER
Firstly - Using any countries military force as a basis for its inhabitants... inherently wrong.
As is any member of society who doesn't express a form of gratitude to a person who is in a uniform for their country.
So, as an insider, I will say, travelling anywhere... especially from England to the States.. Foreigners will usually not get on with any common language Foreigner. English people will never understand the common hospitality of a Americans.
Let's refer to airtragics post... You would almost never get a stranger expressing any interest in conversation like any of those old american farts in the UK. Just wont.
With England to France, You dont speak french, so you can ignore them, or enjoy the novelty of them speaking English to you. Softens the blow, Etc. Etc.
I have lived in the states for a while as well as a significant time in the UK. I am heading back to the states shortly and I will say this.. As much as I hate the ethos of many of the American public... I find it hard to defend the English public. 😛
(but that is because I am a foreigner with a common language)
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Anyone else watching Panorama right now?
I am. This is appalling, this would be appalling in somewhere like Egypt, in the World's largest economy and in the richest Nation State the World has ever seen it is simply unconscionable 🙁
They do and the evidence is in the fact that they export their further education system to more people than any other country. In fact, education is their largest export.
Really because they clearly ****ing failed to educate most of their own populace? Has Britain ever voted in something as mind numbingly ignorant and short sighted as Bush's administration?
It's not scientific at all but....
http://reason.com/archives/2006/01/13/stupid-in-america 😀
http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Home-tent-Anlaby-High-Road/story-11960260-detail/story.html
Holy cow.. that article uses the fact that Americans did worse than Belgians in a test to prove that a state monopoly on education was terrible.
If people got to choose their kids' school, education options would be endless.
FAIL!
How nicely ironic 🙂
Really because they clearly **** failed to educate most of their own populace?
That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.
Bear in mind I also said 'further', as in higher, as in above secondary school....
The documentary was very limited but it showed graphically the worst of America.
[img] 
[/img]
That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.
Really? I would have though access to education for all was a prerequisite of a good education system.
I was always under the impression that the output of PhD studies in the US was about the same as in the UK. However they take an extra 2 years over it to allow undergrads to catch up 🙂
That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.
I think it is. Equality of opportunity is a major part of being 'good' imo.
EDIT: High 5 tj.
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
?1249507563[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Really? I would have though access to education for all was a prerequisite of a good education system.
I guess it really depends on how you want to interpret 'excellence'.
I was implying that it has the best quality of teaching and learning (again in its higher education system), not that it was most successful in attaining higher levels of achievement across a broader spectrum of its population.
There are objective ways of measuring this and the American schools do repeatedly dominate the league tables for this kind of thing but as a country, they don't do anything like as well with overall academic attainment levels.
But hey don't let the argument dissuade you from your opinion TJ.
I was implying that it has the best quality of teaching and learning (again in its higher education system),
Oxbridge?
Japan?
About me: I live in the USA, have a Green Card and intend to apply for citizenship. I lived in the UK for 33-odd years and have lived in the USA for 5. I think I was one of the first batch of subscribers to Singletrack and think I still have the first few issues somewhere.
I liked this from Stoatsbrother:
There is no one so educated as an educated American, no one so friendly and as polite as a polite American.There is no one so insular and dumb as a dumb American, no one so violent or so bigoted as some other American pondlife.
The 'educated' section of the populace is unfortunately outnumbered by the 'dumb' section, but there are enough plus sides to the country to more than make up for it (for me anyhow).
Many of the people I meet on a daily basis are insular, xenophobic, devoid of logic, unashamedly selfish and greedy. Some of the people I meet humble me with their intelligence, honesty and compassion. My (American) wife is one of the few who truly humble me. I'm also lucky enough to have a circle of friends here with many and varied careers, each more than willing to give the shirt off their back. They also understand irony, love culture and gleefully lap up all my Northern British colloquialisms and swear words.
As has already been mentioned, America is a large place. Many of the states are truly like different countries, with wildly differing attitudes on many aspects of life. The driving alone is worlds apart from state to state. I live in Detroit and it's like Death Race 2000. Driving in certain parts of Oregon on the other hand, can be a pleasure. The thread on riding two abreast made me smile. I do not ride on the roads in Michigan, as the attitude towards cyclists is abominable. To temper this, I have three managed 6 mile+ singletrack trails within 10 minutes drive from my house. They are managed by the state of Michigan and it cost me $10 for a yearly pass. No real hills though.
I can't really defend America as a whole, as 'the Bush thing' is kind of hard to refute. What I can do at least is promise you that there are plenty of very smart, educated, friendly and genuine people here. The problem is, they are too boring to end up the focus of anyone's scrutiny. Dumb rednecks, extreme politicians and greedy businessmen stick out a lot more and obscure the view.
I have three Franco-American stepchildren (their father is French) and my wife is half way done with our own Anglo-American effort. All are being educated to be respectful, honest and loyal, despite the best efforts of the American public school system (you have no idea the crap they are allowed to get away with at school).
I could go on, but I had a spare few minutes at work and thought I'd chime in and let you know they aren't all bad. Not like those bloody Frogs... 🙂
That they fail to get everyone the same access is not the same thing as not having the best further education system in the world.
.....as a country, they don't do anything like as well with overall academic attainment levels.
But hey don't let the argument dissuade you from your opinion TJ.
I think most people would probably agree that not doing well with overall academic attainment levels is the same as saying that it's not the best further education system in the world.
I think your argument is unlikely to dissuade most people from that opinion, not just TJ.
There is no one so educated as an educated American, no one so friendly and as polite as a polite American.There is no one so insular and dumb as a dumb American, no one so violent or so bigoted as some other American pondlife.
It sounds like it's only the United States in name then.......two lots of people with very little in common.
Has mcboo lost the use of language or just tired of arguing with TJ?
Liking the video; it reminded of the best the US has to offer.
Vermont, where I'm from, legalised same-sex partnerships 5 years before the UK, and now has (along with four other states nearby) same-sex marriage. has some good skiing and biking, too. . .
Love the UK, too; but wouldn't try to sum it up in a post here!! 🙂
I think your argument is unlikely to dissuade most people from that opinion, not just TJ.
Well then you can just go an argue the toss with the millions of people who each year go to the US for their education and pay a lot of money for the privileged. I think they're convinced and it's their money they are spending.
It may offend your sensibilities but when it comes to decision making, there is nothing like spending your own money to sharpen the process and make it extremely efficient.
Let's start with a simple premise - money is not an object and you want to buy the best education in the world. You can go anywhere, where do you go?
In that situation, America leads the world, the UK is a close second.
millions of people who each year go to the US for their education
Millions? 😀
It may offend your sensibilities but when it comes to decision making, there is nothing like spending your own money to sharpen the process and make it extremely efficient.
My sensibilities feel quite unoffended. It makes perfect logic to them that not doing well with overall academic attainment levels is the same as saying that it's not the best further education system in the world.
"Not doing well" is purely relative, and it certainly doesn't suggest "the best".
And people willingly paying for something very far from suggests that it must therefore be the best. In fact people often assume that they must be getting the best for no reason other than because they are paying for something - specially if they are paying through the nose.
with the OP on this one.
Look at the admission percentages for Oxbridge vs Harvard/Yale.
the latter get several thousand more applications and are far, far more selective
Well then you can just go an argue the toss with the millions of people who each year go to the US for their education and pay a lot of money for the privileged. I think they're convinced and it's their money they are spending.
America has Hollywood as its main marketing tool, and the false promise of the American dream. Many people go to America for education expecting it to be the promised land and to end up living in a Beverly Hills mansion, the reality is much much tougher.
The US has a population more than 5 times that of the UK, it would be reasonable to assume that this is reflected in some way in how many university places it has available. A quick search reveals that the US has apparently twice the number of foreign students that the UK has.
Leaving aside geetees made up claim that millions of people go to the US for their education
They go in vast numbers to Aus & the UK too - proportionally a great many more that the US
It's not because the best education in the world is found in these countries, it's because the best [b]English[/b] education is available
Leaving aside geetees made up claim that millions of people go to the US for their education
It's not made up. I've seen the data.
And people willingly paying for something very far from suggests that it must therefore be the best.
I agree, but there is lots of other data, empirical measurement of alum performance and research, that supports my argument. These are things like salary attainment post graduation, numbers of board level positions attained, number of papers published in peer review journals, numbers of faculty, funding per head of student population etc.
Here is some evidence. It is the prevalence of US schools in the global top 100 that I use as evidence for America having the best higher education system in the world.
[url= http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-2012/top-400.html ]TES Top 400[/url]
[url= http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011 ]QS[/url]
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities ]Academic Ranking of World Universities[/url]
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6874521535_523dfdc16b_b.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/6874521535/ ]america[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr
American troops urinating on corpses
http://www.****/news/article-2085378/US-troops-urinating-dead-Afghan-bodies-video-used-Taliban-recruitment-tool.html
Child mortality rates are 2 or 3 times most european countries
TJ - please - stop. You are at one of your activity peaks again. Like sun spots and other things that cause chaos. Your American troops link (to the Mail of all places) is trite and proves nothing. However, if you are just trying to up your post count, crack on.
TJ it's a terrible situation. The Panorama programme made me think of things in a very different way (ignoring the Daily Fail story) and while I am still a fan of America, I'm not quite as big a fan as I used to be.
I've adjusted my opinion and view.
I think it's important to be able to do that. Don't you?
Tootall I think that daily mail link shows a lot about the ingrained attitudes and values of the USA and is a decent rebuttal to some of the glowing one eyed praise Geetee has been posting.
Plenty more instances of that sort of thing available
I think that daily mail link shows a lot about the ingrained attitudes and values of the USA
Woah. Stop right there fella. If you really do think that, then you know nothing of the military as a whole and the American people in general. You are just using it as a platform to demonstrate your own prejudices.
Let me tell you what my dad told me years ago on his interpretation of racism. He said it was a fear of something different. Some people are threatened by people who look different, sound different, dress different - even behave different. Those people tend not to educate themselves as to why those differences exist and prefer to hide behind their ignorance. They end up not understanding and reveal their own insecurities - perhaps in attacks, whether they be verbal or physical, indirect or indirect.
I quite like that as a basic tale I was told as a kid. You appear to be demonstrating those traits, TJ. Quite shallow, poor logic and just making a point to perpetuate your uneducated view on the topic.
I am racist because I abhor the racist behaviour of the American military?
🙄
all I am doing here is providing a counterpoint to the rose tinted view of Geetee. This sort of abhorrent behaviour while not solely the province of US troops is a common thread running thru their military.
Devaluing and dehumanising funny foreign fellas they are killing.
Have you met any of 'their military' TJ?
Your attacks are tedious and prove nothing, other than your Google-Fu.
I am racist because I abhor the racist behaviour of the American military?
No, the argument is that you are racist because you're using a story about a few individuals' behaviour to draw conclusions about an entire nation of 300m+ people.
is a decent rebuttal to some of the glowing one eyed praise Geetee has been posting.
It is a good rebuttal. It shows that the country isn't perfect. Far from it.
I don't think that makes me 'one eyed' though.
Yes. Like all peoples as individuals they are fine. However as a group their behaviour is repugnant to any civilised person. You cannot defend this sort of behaviour and it is not a one of abberation.
Its a product of their racist attitudes
I'll repeat the question, TJ. Have you met any of 'their military'? Or are you basing your entire knowledge upon the media and their reporting?
TandemJeremy - MemberYes. Like all peoples as individuals they are fine. However as a group their behaviour is repugnant to any civilised person. You cannot defend this sort of behaviour and it is not a one of abberation.
Its a product of their racist attitudes
geetee1972No, the argument is that you are racist because you're using a story about a few individuals' behaviour to draw conclusions about an entire nation of 300m+ people.
where have I drawn conclusions about the entire nation? Point it out. If you are going to accuse me of something then back it up
I'll repeat the question, TJ. Have you met any of 'their military'? Or are you basing your entire knowledge upon the media and their reporting?
That's a silly argument. I have never met a member of the Khmer Rouge, the Waffen SS, or the Israel Defense Force, but I have a right to an opinion based on their behaviour.
Although I do agree that TJ is completely going over the top in his attacks on American society. Urinating onto corpses is just an motive issue which should not be used to wholesale condemn a people imo.
The issue is often not individual poor behaviour - you'll get that all over - it's the frequency of such incidents and the system that allows them to think it's something they'll get away with
When they don't, you hear about it
I've met hundreds of US GIs and air force personnel, the GIs are about as arrogant and opinionated and selfish as anyone I've ever met
The air force guys seemed OK
Ernie - where have I done this?
wholesale condemn a people.
all I have done is given a counterpoint to geetees one eyed view
Ernie - where have I done this?
Well I think your link to the article concerning the yanks urinating on corpses was an attempt to do that.
Right, I'm outta here.
Are the US military guilty of abuse - hell yes.
Are they alone - hell no.
Do they get the most publicity - hell yes.
It is a minority of the US military that behave badly, and they get the most publicity. The huge scrutiny they are under with imbeded journmalists etc ensures it all comes out.
The attrocities by other countries are far far worse.
Do they get the most publicity - hell yes.
Spoken like a true yank, even if you're not.
Its complete nonsense.
Every headline on every news broadcast over the last two weeks has been anti-Syrian publicity, to prepare us for the coming US invasion.
All the talk of numbers dead from violence, but no mention that more people suffered violent deaths in Iraq last month, in a War started nine years ago and still not resolved.
American publicised abuse - tip of an iceberg.
I have never met a member of the Khmer Rouge, the Waffen SS, or the Israel Defense Force, but I have a right to an opinion based on their behaviour.
You do, but you have the advantage of most of their behaviour being in the past and the analysis of historians, rather than just the media and their desire to sell newspapers.
the GIs are about as arrogant and opinionated and selfish as anyone I've ever met
Not my experiences on the whole, but there you go.
TJ - I take it from your lack of answer you've not met any. If I were to judge 'all Englishmen living in Scotland' from what I read on the internet, what conclusions could I leap to?
Tootall - I have answered you twice
TandemJeremy - MemberYes. ( I have met them) Like all peoples as individuals they are fine. However as a group their behaviour is repugnant to any civilised person. You cannot defend this sort of behaviour and it is not a one of abberation.
Its a product of their racist attitudes
TJ I wish you would stop with your hateful run down of another nation when the great land that you live within is no better.
Malnutrition, MRSA, poisoning of saline solution - all rife in the NHS
Soldiers torturing and desicrating Iraqis and Afghans - all rife within the UK armed forces.
Racism and Police brutality to protesters - rife within the UK police force
People in glass houses....
OK - thought you were refering to the American nation as a whole. Would you care to expand upon why they were so repugnant and what the occasion was? It has marked you in such a way it must have been a big thing.
Who is defending the behaviour? Not me.
This whole thread was based around a very one eyed view promoting how great teh US is.
I thought a counterpoint to it was need.
There are a number of people on here who will defend the US come what may.
I thought a counterpoint to it was need
No you didn't, you just took it as an opportunity to be spiteful about a nation you clearly hate and feel the need to critisise. It's sad.
Really - you know my motivations better than I do? how odd.
LHS, you're the on sounding spiteful and personal here.
It's fine to point out that the UK does have a lot of comparable problems, but the thread is "I've always liked America and this is why...." so it is strange to use your points to try to stifle debate about America.
"Let the nation that is without sin cast the first stone"
There is virtually no perfect nation on Earth, they all have faults in various respects. In the grand scheme, the USA is generally one of the better nations IMHO. A lot of the modern infrastructure, innovation and invention has come from over the pond. We have not done too badly ourselves.
However as a report card would say - "could do better"
And no, there will be no invation of Syria. It is not anti - Syrian publicity - it is anti Syrian Regieme, bit of a difference there.
It isn't a debate - it is TJ demonstrating his dislike, not a counterpoint. All militaries have breakdowns of discipline on occasion. To use such a thing in a 'debate' on the pros and cons of a country is about as daft as tryng to present it as a debate.
There are a number of people on here who will [s]defend[/s] [b]attack[/b] the US come what may.
One is no better than the other.
to try to stifle debate about America.
Its not debate, its hate.
At a time when the US administration has only warm words for those brave enough to demand respect for their civil rights in the Middle East, it is sobering to be reminded of the US's own flagrant, continued abuse of human rights by detaining people without trial in Guantanamo – years after Barack Obama pledged to close the prison down.
TandemJeremy - Member
Ernie - where have I done this?wholesale condemn a people.
all I have done is given a counterpoint to geetees one eyed view
[img] 
[/img]
TJ - I am OK with all of the counter points and the alternative arguments. Sometimes your view points do make me think and make me review my opinion.
But do you think you could just have a bit more respect for my arguments rather than belittling them with comments like 'one eyed'?
I am a highly educated, highly intelligent individual and while I don't claim to have a monopoly on what is absolute (as if there is such a thing) I think a little more respect is becoming.
One other thing regarding your comments on the military. If you'd spent time on a front line I don't think you would have a different opinion to the one you have now, but I am almost sure you would express it differently.