[Closed] It's global cooling, not warming!

I always understood that it was essentially a sine wave, within a larger sine wave and so on.
That means that whilst we're still on our way out of the last ice age (so it's going to get warmer) we may be on a shorter term downward curve.

And, at the moment we're seeing more extremes of weather, hotter/colder/wetter/dryer etc.

Whilst I think that our carbon footprint(tm) may have a bearing, I do think that the wider world of natural gaseous outpourings from livestock and volcanoes etc is far more significant than the continued manufacturing of say Aston Martins.

There's been interesting comments around the fact that hotter = more cloud, which in turn will help cool things.

Personally, I think we don't know what's happening, hotter/colder etc, but that shouldn't excuse abusing the world we live (points at China) in the same as it shouldn't mean we have to revert to feral living.

If the so called overwhelming proof that the climate is getting warmer is true

Yes indeed, these experts with their so-called overwhelming proof, have had me worried sick for the last few years - so you can imagine my relief when it started snowing down here on tuesday evening.

I wished now, I had listened to that geezer down the pub who said that it was all a con by the government to make us pay more taxes to fund their socialist policies - he seemed to know what he was talking about, instead of listening to atmospheric scientists, oceanologists, and hydrologists.

I am certainly never going to believe the experts again - I've got almost two inches of snow in my garden ffs.

I am also now going to have another close look at this so-called "theory of evolution" and the claim by scientists that the world couldn't have been made in 6 days.

A three year "TREND" in weather is not proof of a climate change, even though you could extrapolate it to whatever you want. I don't think it would even qualify as a trend given the dataset of millions of years.

natural gaseous outpourings from livestock and volcanoes etc is far more significant than the continued manufacturing of say Aston Martins.

An interesting assertion given that man-made pollution produces over ONE HUNDRED times the amount of CO2 than the "natural gaseous outpourings" from all the worlds volcanoes. 🙄

[URL= http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html ](Volcanoes: approx 200 million tonnes of CO2; man-made CO2 in 2003: 26.8 billion tonnes; Source: USGS)[/URL]

am also now going to have another close look at this so-called "theory of evolution" and the claim by scientists that the world couldn't have been made in 6 days.

I think you'll find that the creationist ****wits have already beaten you to that one and it's now being tought in in schools in the USA and UK as a valid science!

just goes to show the world is ****ed and humans are a pathetic waste of a species.

As always, no one actually knows, scientists are just hypothesising (spl) with computer models but there is no proof. The only real evidence we have is natural cycles. 🙂

if it is global cooling, then why is Alaska warmer than average?

We are experiencing WEATHER, this is not CLIMATE!!!!!

[i]This is now the third successive very cold winter we have had.[/i]

This is weather, wot scientists are talking about is climate...

damn, Goan was a visionary leader all along

I am also now going to have another close look at this so-called "theory of evolution" and the claim by scientists that the world couldn't have been made in 6 days.

You are foolishly assuming that Gods days have the same operative cycle as Earth days. Its a well known fact that 1 day on mercury is well over 58 Earth days. So its impossible to know how long one of Gods days are. 😀

Surely this is a troll.

So you think that a)there isn't a valid point in what I'm saying b)no one else has posted anything reactionary on the topic and c)the whole topic hasn't been recycled over and over already?

40 odd yrs ago the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence said that we were set for global cooling. Perhaps they were correct after all. 😉

If the so called overwhelming proof that the climate is getting warmer is true, why is the whole world experiencing much colder weather?

The whole world [b]isn't[/b] experiencing much colder weather. Hope that helps.

They thought of that a few years ago when they renamed 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'. Whatever happens they can still get a nice big research grant.

Whatever happens they can still get a nice big research grant.

Crafty ****ers 😐

It's called the Arctic Oscillation - we're in a negative phase.

It's climate - RTFM!

They thought of that a few years ago when they renamed 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change'.

They did that so that to try not to confuse simpletons who every time winter comes around say 'how can we have global warming when I'm a bit chilly'. I guess it didn't work.

I thought the point behind global warming was that it was a global increase in temperature. You can still have extreme variations within that, with one locale differing compared to others, but the overall temperature avaraged out over the whole planet over a year would be higher. So climate change is an accurate descriptor for what we are experiencing on a day to day basis wherever you are in the world and global warming is an accurate descriptor for the whole overall process that has led to climate change.

Sorry if this reply seems a bit humourless but I think this is an important point on an issue that people need to understand. Despite what nay-sayers think, the balance of evidence says that we are pushing things too far by our actions.

I laugh at the fools who believe in the man made global warming guff. They 1st have to rename it 'cliamte change' when they realise its not actually warming up & are now scratching their heads as to why the world is not following their stupid computer modelling predictions.

bloody global warming? I'll believe it when I see it!
Brrrr....

Isn't this weather related to disruption of the gulf stream which was forecast as a possible effect of global warming?

I laugh at the fools who believe in the man made global warming guff. They 1st have to rename it 'cliamte change' when they realise its not actually warming up & are now scratching their heads as to why the world is not following their stupid computer modelling predictions.

And I shake my head in despair at fools who laugh at the people who believe it.

People who believe in man made climate change include world leaders and leading scientists.

People who don't believe in man made climate change include semi-illiterate forum posters, David Bellamy and readers of the daily Express.

I laugh at the fools who believe in the man made global warming guff. They 1st have to rename it 'cliamte change' when they realise its not actually warming up & are now scratching their heads as to why the world is not following their stupid computer modelling predictions.

Ha ha... That's funny 🙂 Like it..

er.. You were joking right? Weren't you?

Oh good grief!

Some simple homework for you...
Two words.. Climate & Weather

Come back tomorrow when you can explain the difference to the whole class.

🙂

m-cozzy: Most of the predictions about global warming/climate change were that the weather would get more and more unpredictable. Not hugely helpful but does go some way towards explaining what may be happening. And it was "renamed" climate change in an attempt to fit a seemingly nebulous concept into the minds of the general populace. Hence see my earlier comment about global warming being the process and climate change being the readily observable result.

tonyg2003: It was one of the predictions but it remains to be seen what effect it is having.

If you look very carefully, somewhere hidden in this thread is a lack of education.

The current weather pattern has the same causes as the similar instances in 1947 and 1963. It probably doesn't have much to do with climate change.

m_cozzy, the simple fact is that the world is warmer than it was, locally it may be colder and models suggest the gulf stream may shut down, which would result in this winter being incredibly mild in comparison with what may happen.

The issue is why is the earth warmer.

To me the more important questions that are being ignored, population and energy requirements.

Wow the weather fluctuates [ as per Mark not the distinction between weather and climate] and we have seasons .... I did not realise 😳 I hope the climate scientist have notced this effect 🙄

The simple fact is that no one really knows or can prove either way. The sad fact is that all governments around the world are using it as an excuse to extract more money from us. If they were going to do anything useful then they would tax Beef a lot more, farming for beef is a far bigger contributor than everything else put together. Or they should tax volcanos or the sun for that matter too! Unfortunately for all you tax dodging bog monster hippies out there, mr Chelsea tractor is having negligible effect!!!

[img] [/img]

Crikey everyone on here is a global warming loony, pay your green taxes chaps, that will solve it. 😥
Im off back to pistonheads where the common sense prevails.

Im off back to pistonheads where the common sense prevails.

Yeah because some people on a car forum obviously know more than the majority of the world's climate scientists.

I wish people would just be honest enough to say that they don't really give a shit about climate change and whether man is having an impact on it, rather than claiming they know something about it.

Or they should tax volcanos or the sun for that matter too!

See post above - we produce over 125 times more CO2 than the world's volcanoes.

Hainey: but the current uptrend coming out the "little ice age" happens to coincide with a massive surge in CO2 output and the industrial age really getting moving - the graphic also shows how volatile the climate has become since then.

As mentioned, what a load of bollox the livestock and volcanoes argument is.

As for the cold, is there not the belief that although the planet as a whole will warm, the UK will actually freeze? If you look at our latitude, our country is unusually warm, caused by the gulf stream, melting ice caps is expected to cool and stall this meaning we'll have a climate more common for our latitude?

Anyway, I'll move along, I'm no expert like the bloke down the pub.

As for the cold, is there not the belief that although the planet as a whole will warm, the UK will actually freeze?

I thought they said we [the UK] were in for warmer, wetter winters?

The simple fact is that no one really knows or can prove either way. The sad fact is that all governments around the world are using it as an excuse to extract more money from us. If they were going to do anything useful then they would tax Beef a lot more, farming for beef is a far bigger contributor than everything else put together.

So what you are saying is that all the governments around the world [u]actually know[/u] that climate change isn't happening ? !

The proof is in the fact that governments around the world won't tax beef, which is the number one contributor of climate change [which isn't happening] ?

This is terrible ........... I simply had no idea that this conspiracy was so widespread and all embracing.

Surely, there must be something we can do to fight back against this global conspiracy ?

I thought they said we [the UK] were in for warmer, wetter winters?

It's just another theory as to what could happen.

I love how we have to wait and see for sure before doing something about it. Was sent a cartoon strip the other day: A man despairs at hearing that climate change was a hoax and states "oh no, and we built a better world for nothing!"

Summed it up for me really.

I remain unconvinced that our CO2 production has, or is having a significant effect on global warm,,, sorry, climate change. I do not dispute that the planet is warming, but with reference to winter times, there have been many more milder winters in the past. Back then, people spoke about the planet warming up. Now that it's bloody freezing, they are saying this is due to a sine wave and it's still global warming. Talk about destroying your own credibility! Utter tosh! I agree, a 3 year timescale is an irrelevance, infact 100 years is irrelevant if you want to be scientific about the matter. I was listening to teachers in the 1970's telling us about the problem. If we'd believed the reports about Amazonian deforestation, there would be no rain forest by now. This isn't a new problem, so why has it taken 40 years for governments to act on climate change?

Our ability to detect weather/climate has become far better in just the past decade or so, with the emergence of new technologies and the ease at which information is distributed to us. I also think the way news can travel so far and so quickly has had an impact on how we perceive the world. We now get in an instant, in full graphic detail, information about what the weather is doing to people all over the world.

I reckon so called extreme weather has actually been occurring for a very long time, but seeing as we have improved the ability to see more in recent years, it feels like the problem is getting worse. We can also be certain that the increase is due to the subject being on the political agenda! As any mathemetician will tell you, if you lookat a big enough sample, there will always be identifiable patterns. There is no doubt that there is political agenda and I cannot trust any internet article whose url ends with "dot gov"!! Scientists are not agreed on whether it's man who is causing the problem, only the ones receiving government grants do.

Climate change is cyclical and global warming has happend thousands of years before we had the capability to burn and waste so much precious fossil fuel. I DO NOT advocate pointless waste, I believe in conserving as much energy as possible. It's not difficult to get your consumption down if you put vanity to one side, and act smart in your home, with your movements and when you shop. Having no job and no money makes the task a great deal easier as reducing all consumption and travel comes with the territory (if you are smart enough to live by your means).

Listening to scientific programmes, one detects plenty of evidence that we are in a cycle over which we have very little control. Throughout my life I have heard how only 300 years ago, the climate was much warmer in Britain, some 100-150 years before the industrial revolution. One programme I listened to talked about how, thousands of years ago due to a warmer climate, sea levels were 6-7m higher than they are now. 6-7m???

My advice, continue to conserve energy, but don't buy into this climate change political meddling, it's just another source of stealth taxation!

that shouldn't excuse abusing the world we live (points at China)

Why them? The US are the worst polluters by far right? In terms of per capita China have nothing to be ashamed of.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_pol_car_dio_per_cap-pollution-carbon-dioxide-per-capita

[u]What we should be worrying about is the continuing EXPLOSION in the world's population!!
[/u]
To my knowledge, the only contry that has done anything about the problem is China. The Chinese government's "one child per couple" policy remains to this day. I know China have many human rights issues, but this is one that is for the good for the country and for the planet. Here in the developed world, the cost of living has kept population increase reasonably at bay.

Conversely, you have Bill Gates and Warren Buffett spending a huge sum of money attempting to erradicate Malaria in developing countries. I wholeheartedly understand the innate human desire to preserve life, however in this programme to really help these poor people, there should be a simultaneous education programme to get these people to change their cultural habit of having as many children as they possibly can!

We are definitely going to run out of food and fresh water before climate change wipes us out.

Spongebob:

You seem to think that governments want us to believe that climate change is believing to they can tax us?

Get a grip - when has any government worried about taxing us? After the financial meltdown we're in they will tax anything and everything without having to put up some form of screen of 'ooh, green taxes'!

The simple fact that CO2 captures and re-radiates energy is proven and indisputable.

More energy is a system creates more turbulence and greater un-predictability, which in turn is harder to model.

It only takes a bit of cold weather to show how many people can't differentiate weather and climate.

As has already been discussed here, the Earth's climate has always fluctuated between warmer and colder periods. The issue is one of magnitude and speed, and how much the extra energy in the system, put there by anthropogenic sources, will push the natural cycle to one extreme or the other.

Monte-carlo simulations on some of the worlds most powerful super computers appear to suggest that we're facing a period of unprecedented and RAPID warming.

The RAPID bit is the important part, since its predicted to be so rapid that adaptation by the worlds habitats and species may be difficult or impossible - end result - extinctions and a massive impact to our traditional food production practices within decades rather than centuries.

The speed of the change will change weather patterns and affect water supplies so fast that we will see mass starvation, Climate refugee migration on a mass scale and food supply problems.

Its not going to be a problem for 'life' but it will be a problem for life and civilisation as we know it. If it goes the way the models suggest, the world in 100 years will be a rather different place from the one we know know, but isn't that always the case?

Yeah because some people on a car forum obviously know more than the majority of the world's climate scientists.

I wish people would just be honest enough to say that they don't really give a shit about climate change and whether man is having an impact on it, rather than claiming they know something about it.

I think with most people it's not that they don't give a shit about it, but just that they don't see how any decisions they make are going to affect it, or how it's going to affect them, their children, or their children's children.
As such they're quite willing to do things like get energy efficient lightbulbs instead of normals when it's convenient to do so, but don't rightly see how putting themselves out by a considerable degree in the name of climate change is anything but a completely thankless exercise.

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

Get a grip - when has any government worried about taxing us?

When a general election is looming??

We'll all feel rightly put out when the cost of wheat triples and the cost of feeding ourselves consumes all our disposable incomes.

I think with most people it's not that they don't give a shit about it, but just that they don't see how any decisions they make are going to affect it, or how it's going to affect them, their children, or their children's children.

Yeah fair enough but why does no-one ever say that either? Instead they come up with the same rehashed and discredited arguments about ice ages and global conspiracies.

Get a grip - when has any government worried about taxing us?

Stealth tax = a tax they hope we won't notice, or one that we can see, but don't think will affect us much.

It's a form of deception IMHO and if they weren't worried about taxing us, stealth taxation would not exist.

I have a grip thank you very much AdamW!

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

Are you referring to yourself anagalliss_arvensis?

**** me some people who can seemingly manage to write in a coherant manner are actually completete retards with astounding levels of arrogance in thinking they understand more about something than people who have dedicated their lives to studying it.

They only hear want to the stuff that doesn't affect their selfish little lives I'm afraid.

> Get a grip - when has any government worried about taxing us?

When a general election is looming??

So in your considered opinion the vast majoirty of the world's climate scientists and the world governments have agreed to this global deception because the UK is going to have an election soon and folk might not like taxes much???

It's a form of deception IMHO and if they weren't worried about taxing us, stealth taxation would not exist.

It doesn't does it? What taxes am I paying that I know nothing about?
Calling a tax that everyone knows about a "stealth tax" seems a bit odd to me.

Spongebob - Member

"Get a grip - when has any government worried about taxing us?"

When a general election is looming??

How true. But what I don't understand, is why China is going along with this climate change nonsense. Because obviously they don't need to "worry about a general election looming".

Any clues Spongebob ?

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8268077.stm ]China vows climate change action[/url]

If politicians take Climate Change so seriously, why is only 5% of green tax revenues then reinvested in renewable energy projects?

Why is the cost of public transport continuing to increase?

Why are governments unwilling to legislate against high CO2 emitting cars and air travel beyond simply adding more Green Taxes?

Why does Stanstead need another runway?

Why isn't the Severn Estuary being tapped for tidal energy?

How true. But what I don't understand, is why China is going along with this climate change nonsense. Because obviously they don't need to "worry about a general election looming".

I don't really follow this sort of stuff too closely but at the Copenhagen conference there was a commitment [or talk] of restricting global temp rise to less than 2C over n years
How exactly can that be managed?

What I mean is, is it as easy as saying "we're warming up a bit fast, we'll ease back for a while"
Can we really see an effect of our actions that quickly?

Yes Ernie! China are going along with it because of international pressure (the countries that buy their goods are leaning on them), but it's only political rhetoric. I can't imagine they will really make significant changes.

PJM1974 - yes governments are no doubt using MMCC cynically, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

Why is the cost of public transport continuing to increase?

Privatised, have to make profit?

Why are governments unwilling to legislate against high CO2 emitting cars and air travel beyond simply adding more Green Taxes?

Because voters drive cars like that, and use air travel?

Why does Stanstead need another runway?

Because we want to travel by air a lot more and any climate issue goes out the window when business is involved(see Copenhagen for details)

China are going along with it because of international pressure.

Rightio ........ they are just doing what they being told to do. It's good to know that they are so sensitive to outside pressure - I had no idea.

And presumably so keen to help Western governments get re-elected.

Graham S

So in your considered opinion the vast majoirty of the world's climate scientists and the world governments have agreed to this global deception because the UK is going to have an election soon and folk might not like taxes much???

I didn't even suggest that! You are twisting what I wrote.

Now Ernie, give me an actual figure for this "vast" majority of scientists. Do you have a figure for all the scientists who don't subscribe to this and who are scared they would loose their research budgets?

You must also bear in mind that politicians all round the globe are like ours. For one they aren't scientists! Many of them have no expertise, but rely on paid, so called "experts". Politicans mostly lie and cheat their way to power and then continue this once in office. Their arrogance knows no bounds and the longer they are there, the worse they get! In my life I have seen plenty of evidence to support this. They are self serving egotists who are arrogant enough to think we should bother to listen to them. They will act on the advice they receive, but frequently come up with solutions to problems that clearly demonstrates that they haven't understood the problem! In most cases however, they seem clever enough to raise money from their schemes. OH what a cynic I am!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8299079.stm

For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

a decade isn't really a good timescale to measure things,
but the doom and gloom hasn't materialised like many said
interesting though, it does seem that none of the scientists can agree on what is happening out there 🙂

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

They won't do this in a hurry because it affects economies and in turn, tax receipts.

Like killing the golden goose.

Now Ernie, give me an actual figure for this "vast" majority of scientists. Do you have a figure for all the scientists who don't subscribe to this and who are scared they would loose their research budgets?

It wasn't me what said it.

I'm well aware that the crafty buggers don't want to lose their research budgets.

That means that whilst we're still on our way out of the last ice age (so it's going to get warmer) we may be on a shorter term downward curve.

Some rentaprof on the news made this mistake the other week as well. Throughout the mid/late Quaternary interglacial periods have lasted ~10 thousand years, separated by much longer glacials of about 100ka. The current interglacial started ~12ka ago, so that would suggest the Earth should start getting colder any time now.

It appears that anthropogenically-induced climate changes are causing deviation from this pattern though.

[img] [/img]

(sorry to buck the trend and cite actual evidence by the way)

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

But banning isn't compatible with our free world....

You must also bear in mind that politicians all round the globe are like ours. For one they aren't scientists! Many of them have no expertise, but rely on paid so called "experts". Politicans mostly lie and cheat their way to power and then continue this. Their arrogance knows no bounds! In my life I have seen plenty of evidence to support this. They are self serving egotists who are arrogant enough to think we should bother to listen to them. They will act on the advice they receive, but frequently come up with solutions to problems, that clearly demonstrate that they haven't understood the problem. In most cases however, they are clever enough to raise money from their schemes. OH what a cynic I am!!!

You now seem to have moved on from attacking the science of climate change to attacking politicians. So is this little rant of yours about climate change or paying taxes?

I don't really follow this sort of stuff too closely but at the Copenhagen conference there was a commitment [or talk] of restricting global temp rise to less than 2C over n years
How exactly can that be managed?

What I mean is, is it as easy as saying "we're warming up a bit fast, we'll ease back for a while"
Can we really see an effect of our actions that quickly?

anyone?
Genuinely interested BTW

I didn't even suggest that! You are twisting what I wrote.

Are you new here? 😉

I didn't twist it [i]that[/i] much: you said it was an excuse for unstealthy stealth taxes and when asked why the government needed an excuse you suggested general elections.

The point stands: calling widely publicised taxes that everyone can see, "stealth taxes" is just an emotive attack. Suggesting that governments don't have the power to raise taxes without climate change is also a bit weak.

If politicians REALLY wanted to get us to significantly reduce our CO2 emissions, they would ban wasteful activities, not just tax them more!

Banning is hugely ineffective (ever heard of prohibition?). Doing something drastic like banning all car travel for one day a week would make huge impact, but would also cause huge public revolt.

Taxation is about [url= http://www.nudges.org/thebook.cfm ]the psychology of nudges[/url].

Nice explanation of current winter conditions & its significance re climate change here:

http://metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/pr20100106b.html

Throughout the mid/late Quaternary interglacial periods have lasted ~10 thousand years, separated by much longer glacials of about 100ka. The current interglacial started ~12ka ago, so that would suggest the Earth should start getting colder any time now.

ahhh so its the fault of those pesky Romans 2000 years ago who stopped the earth heading back into an Ice Age.

I read something on here about low sunspot activity on the sun,and read some where that during the 90's and early part of this century there was increased activity also astronemers during the little ice age reported low sunspot activity! Seems a logical explanation to me.... 💡

I read something on here about low sunspot activity on the sun,and read some where that during the 90's and early part of this century there was increased activity also astronemers during the little ice age reported low sunspot activity! Seems a logical explanation to me....

Someone best tell all the scientists (and the astronemers). They might not have considered the sun. 🙄

Grizzer: go read the Royal Society website. They have nice explanations of why it isn't due to sunspots, elleptical orbits etc etc.

The sunspot/warming correlation has been debunked, but it keeps getting discussed anyway.

(EDIT: GrahamS you beat me to it. Your source might be a bit more accessible though 😆 )

There are some entertaining studies correlating sunspot activity with election results and England's cricket scores too.

The fact is no one REALLY knows!

Historically it is natural cycles, we know that. Computer simulations are just that, simulations.

My computer simulated that if I try and attack a hoard of covenant with just a shotgun I would succeed. In real life i know i would fail!!

debunking the debunking...

[url= http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/07/nir-shaviv-why-is-lockwood-and-frohlich.html ]Link 1[/url]

[url= http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Lockwood_and_Frolich_Review.pdf ]Link 2[/url]

[url= http://www.spacecenter.dk/publications/scientific-report-series/Scient_No._3.pdf ]Link 3[/url]

Historically it is natural cycles, we know that. Computer simulations are just that, simulations.

The simulations are useful to speculate causes and what might happen in the future.

But right now we have genuine non-simulated physical measurements that are apparently outwith those natural historical cycles.

Lord Summerisle, none of the links you provided are from peer-reviewed journals. They are also all criticisms of one specific paper (Lockwood and Frohlich, 2007). I haven't read it and it might indeed be bad science.

However, there are numerous other papers arguing against any significant sunspot/warming trend, particulary for the period post-1980. See for example Erlykin et al. (2009), Benestad & Schmidt (2009) and Wenzler et al. (2009), plus the Laut one i linked to in my previous post.

couldnt see the laut one, link didnt work for me.