[Closed] It's a bad day when education causes inflation increase

the bbc news said the hike was due to tuition fees and the price of vegetables [ unless they were referring to the students that is !!!!]

How come the rise in tuition fees has impacted inflation so quickly, or is it referring to an earlier increase that is now been paid back?

Cos it is for October when lots of fees are due to be paid.

Its just the latest in a long, sorry line of 'dog ate my homework' style excuses, because Georges original statement....

"Look... we're in the process of dismantling the state. OK? Sorry, but our ideological mission to hand everything over to our chums, so they can then make oodles of money from you, means that the rest of you are going to see your living standards decimated. That's just the way it is, I'm afraid! So suck it up peasants!"

....didn't play well in the press office

means that the rest of you are going to see your living standards decimated

My mum was a Polish refugee from the war, my dad is the son of a butcher who got an apprenticeship was when he was 16 so I don't think we even begin to feature among George's chums but my living standard is doing pretty well thanks.

If you're bitter about yours Binners maybe you should look closer to home?

Not bitter at all fella. I is a relatively happy bunny

I doubt that the students now finding 9 grand a year on their tuition fees, amongst plenty of others, share your optimism though. Just an observation

I doubt that the students now finding 9 grand a year on their tuition fees

Since its paid for by a loan its not going to impact their standard of living much either...

How can paying back the best part of 30 grand not impact on your living standards, in a country where wages are nowhere near keeping track with ever-rising inflation? And a graduate unemployment rate of 40%?

The current crop of students and graduates [and young people generally] are going to be the first generation in a long time that end up worse off than their parents.

If there are no jobs for graduates, WTF are we doing having so many universities churning them out. Fewer places, harder to get in, smaller cohort of graduates to fill the small number of graduate vacancies, rather than try and make everyone a graduate and piss everyone off because someone has to do the ordinary jobs.

Applications are down 25% this year, so its a problem that's clearly being addressed. Tarquin and Tabatha will still be going. But none of those frightful working classes, who will have to bally well learn their place!!!

You can't really blame the graduates though for a 40% unemployment rate. Its not easy to get [i]any[/i] job at the moment, on account of there still being (officially) 2.6 million unemployed

The current crop of students and graduates ... are going to ... end up worse off than their parents

I never realised it was a competition?

😀

Of course it is.....

😉

Applications are down 25% this year, so its a problem that's clearly being addressed. Tarquin and Tabatha will still be going. But none of those frightful working classes, who will have to bally well learn their place!!!

Binners everyone knows that the biggest difference (perhaps the only difference) between the working class and the middle class is that the middle class (not the upper class as you seem to be suggesting) realised long ago that education was the magic bullet to doing well in the world and consequently they have been fostering an environment for their kids where doing well at school, getting good results and going to university was always something to aspire to and feel good about.

Working class homes are working class by definition of them being the homes where education is seen as 'not cool', where doing well meant you were a swot and where it was something to be derided.

That they aren't taking up places at university has precious little to do with income and everything to do with attitude.

Who in the middle classes can themselves actually afford £20k a year fees and living costs anyway (and let's face it, the middle classes make up the vast majority of university students)? That would mean you've got around £30k of completely disposable pre-tax income coming in and that is not the middle class, yet they still send their kids to uni because they encourage them to take the loans because they know the value of them.

The 25% reduction is coming from Shazza and Bazza not doing Sociology at Brentford Tech or Media Studies at Luton. I think the workplace will miss that to some extent, but at the same time, the value of those kinds of degrees are being called into serious question when for not much more you can go to a red brick institution and get a degree that's really going to make a difference to your career.

Working class homes are working class by definition of them being the homes where education is seen as 'not cool', where doing well meant you were a swot and where it was something to be derided.

Are you for real? You actually believe that?

You are Michael Gove and I claim my signed copy of your St Johns bible 😆

Are you for real? You actually believe that?

I suspect he does sadly

Right so working class people don't understand the value of education? My dad was a plasterer and my mum a hairdresser...education being important was drummed into us throughout childhood. I reckon that my parents proudest achievement is that me and my sister both have degrees and reasonable jobs...

Are you for real? You actually believe that?

Yes I do, on the whole. I don't think it holds true in every household and there are many exceptions, but based on my own experience, yes I do believe that.

Rich tea or hobnobs to settle down with? 😉

not for me but thanks for the offer. I've finished lunch and need to crack on.

Being working class, im not allowed rich tea until Christmas morning.

[i]Working class homes are working class by definition of them being the homes where education is seen as 'not cool', where doing well meant you were a swot and where it was something to be derided.[/i]

Nice sweeping generalisation there, well done.

I don't think it holds true in every household and there are many exceptions

Yes, I'm one of them. So are a lot of my friends. Would I have the same opportunity to do it now? With fees and living costs leaving students in such huge amounts of debt. If I'm honest, I very much doubt it

Though I presume a lot of the Tim-Nice-But-Dim Half-wits I was at uni with, studying equally vacuous subjects as the ones you patronisingly list above, wouldn't have an issue with it 🙄

Working class homes are working class by definition of them being the homes where education is seen as 'not cool', where doing well meant you were a swot and where it was something to be derided.

Utter tripe

Edit: generalization

binners - Member
Applications are down 25% this year, so its a problem that's clearly being addressed. Tarquin and Tabatha will still be going. But none of those frightful working classes, who will have to bally well learn their place!!!

You can't really blame the graduates though for a 40% unemployment rate. Its not easy to get any job at the moment, on account of there still being (officially) 2.6 million unemployed

Citations needed.

IIRC, the last figures i saw were that 2012 entry was down on 2011, but 2011 was up on 2010 because of impending fees. 2012 isn't far off 2010 entry.

If you're refering to 2013 entry applications being down, that's because the deadline isn't for months yet.

rogerthecat - Member
If there are no jobs for graduates, WTF are we doing having so many universities churning them out. Fewer places, harder to get in, smaller cohort of graduates to fill the small number of graduate vacancies, rather than try and make everyone a graduate and piss everyone off because someone has to do the ordinary jobs.

Trollololol

[i]The 25% reduction is coming from Shazza and Bazza not doing Sociology at Brentford Tech or Media Studies at Luton.[/i]

Oof, careful there in your glass house. Remind me of your (and your brother's) degrees and the redbrick institution that they're from?

Remind me of your (and your brother's) degrees and the redbrick institution that they're from?

Manchester University

For us and the institutions we share data with, RUK applications were down about 20% on last year, which amounts to about 10% down on 2010. We still get far more qualified scottish applicants than we can place, sadly.

But I don't know if the scottish experience is comparable to the RUK because of the different funding model.

[i]Manchester University [/i]

I think someone's being a little disingenuous. They may have been awarded by MU, but that's not where you studied.

And anyway, regardless of where you studied (an ex-poly that couldn't award it's own degrees), or what they're in (and I'm pretty sure they're not in 'classical' subjects), both you and your bro have done very well. So, perhaps you should apologise to Shazza and Bazza for being so disparaging about their choices of degree and institution.

I am also one of the exception to the generalisation about the working class...however when I taught in "the village of the damned" it WAS an attitude I did encounter, and worryingly often.

I passed by Edinburgh University earlier today - not a single red brick in sight....

I think someone's being a little disingenuous. They may have been awarded by MU, but that's not where you studied.

You are right, I was being a bit disingenuous. I did my undergraduate at Sheffield Hallam and my Post Grad MBA at Manchester (the Business School, which is part of the university).

The quality of my undergrad was poor and I wouldn't have paid money for it had I been asked to pay tuition fees. That was my point; if you've got the choice of doing Maths at Manchester or Media Studies at Salford and they both cost the same, which are you going to chose? Likewise, if the best course you can get on to is the latter and it's going to cost you £30k, is that value for money enough to justify doing it?

The Sazza and Bazza remark was a parody of Binners's Tarquin and Tabatha remark, which could be deemed equally as offensive or, just an equally harmless burlesque - or are we saying its ok to mock the privileged because they are privileged?

I would say that my own background at least started as working class but in our household, education was drilled into us as being critical for our success (despite the s**t storm I had to endure at primary school Simon, which you may or may not remember since you were also there albeit the year below - I think i've done pretty well despite that!) and so we elevated ourselves to middle class.

That's my point. This is not a class judgement as much as it is a class definition.

You become middle class when you realise that education is the magic bullet and create an environment in which education is valued and encouraged. And you become working class when you do the opposite.

So, by your definition, nobody working class can ever appreciate education? Does this mean, conversely, that someone middle or upper class who fails to fully appreciate the huge gift of a quality education that has been magically bestowed on them by their families aspiration, then reverts to being working class?

Serious question!

To be fair, if you want to get into the media (and why shouldn't you?) doing Media Studies at Salford would seem to be an excellent idea, what with move of the Beeb to Salford.

[i]You become [s]middle class[/s][b]a good parent[/b] when you [s]realise that education is the magic bullet and[/s] create an environment in which education is valued and encouraged. And you become [s]working class[/s][b]a bad parent[/b] when you do the opposite. [/i]

Class has nothing to do with it.

I still can't see how tuition fees are impacting inflation if (next to) no one is yet paying them back - anyone care to elaborate?

Binners happy to accept the serious question.

I think the first challenge we have to overcome is this notion of class. I think everyone can agree what it looks like/means etc when we see the extremes, so the very top echelons contrasted against the very bottom (and it's not universally about money either). But let's not get too into that as it's a whole other thread, more pages than this one.

Let's agree that there is a relatively easily identifiable notion of working class and middle class and then ask how do your recognise which families are which.

I would be saying that the ones where parents encourage their kids to do well, to apply themselves and study hard, where education was critical, formal or otherwise (and I think that education isn't confined to just formal schooling. It can come from other areas such as hobbies or societies for example), where being a contributing member of society was something that should be aspired to, those families would be what I recognise as middle class.

The working class families would be where those values are not just not taught, but where there is also evidence that they are derided.

There were some pretty nasty pieces of work in my class, they were working class than and they're working class now and short of them being a problem for society, that's just how things are.

There were also a lot of kids from families that might have been recognised as working class back then but because of their attitude towards education (formal or otherwise) are now what people would call middle class.

Someone above made the point - mum was a hairdresser and dad was a mechanic but we worked hard at school, went to university and now have pretty good jobs.

That's my point; are they still working class or are they now middle class?

I have seen a lot of evidence of social mobility from my generation; that may be different now but I suspect that education is still the key to social mobility - ironically Binners I think I have talked my argument round to you and I being in wholehearted and violent agreement.

Class has nothing to do with it.

That's the problem when you deal with as nebulous a term as class. We all have different ways of defining and recognising it.

Your point is well made; good parents = middle class and bad parents = working class.

Money has nothing to do with it.

To be fair, if you want to get into the media (and why shouldn't you?) doing Media Studies at Salford would seem to be an excellent idea, what with move of the Beeb to Salford.

And on this point, no, I really don't think it is. In fact I know it's not. The media tends to hire from the Russell Group of unis, not Salford Poly.

I think you may well be right. As it sounds like we had very similar upbringings, aspiration-wise. So I know what you're saying.

What worries me now is the way society has changed, in becoming more polarised, that even with the best will on the world, the opportunities you and I enjoyed are being firmly denied to the generations below us. Social mobility is going backwards in this country. As all the stats beat out. And I can only see that getting far far worse in the future.

The 'class' you're born into is increasingly where you'll stay. As the middle classes (understandably) shore up their inbuilt advantage in a country in decline

Where would footballers such as John Terry fall into the class system? Richer than most, less educated than most....

geetee1972 - Member

You become middle class when you realise that education is the magic bullet and create an environment in which education is valued and encouraged.

I would very strongly disagree. In my last job I worked in what we call wider access- that is, encouraging first-generation students, from families that have never had a member in fe previously. And while some do undervalue education, it's not a key consideration.

There are strong barriers to entry for working class kids. Probably the most significant is just the lack of a roadmap- if your family and friends didn't go to uni, you're less likely to consider it in the first place, and you have less places to turn to for advice.

Meanwhile as you go up the scale, you reach the point where going into HE is commonplace, and therefore it becomes normalised- people are more likely to have relevant experiences to support you, nobody says "Why are you going to uni" or "Why don't you get a job". Speak to a B or C1 class kid and you hear much less "Will I go to uni/college" and much more "what will I do [i]when[/i] I go to uni/college"

Also, I don't think anyone doubts that the debt aspect is also a massive deterrant for lower income families, and families with less history of long-term managed debt. Meanwhile for middle class families, it's much less intimidating.

And lastly, there's often an impact in the quality of education- it's a hard fact that low income areas produce less high achieving school pupils. It's easier for a kid in a good area and good school surrounded by good kids to get 3 As than it is for a kid in a sink estate.

In short- it's not just a case of desire. The job of getting a child into HE is far harder for some than others.

[i]What worries me now is the way society has changed, in becoming more polarised, that even with the best will on the world, the opportunities you and I enjoyed are being firmly denied to the generations below us. Social mobility is going backwards in this country. As all the stats beat out. And I can only see that getting far far worse in the future.

[/i]

+1

My mum mentioned this recently, that her generation had it best as far as she can see. She was born just before WW2. So full life of NHS, decent education (Grammer School both her and Dad), house paid by inflation and final-salary pensions that have been paying out nearly 20 years now.

Northwind, excellent post. You've made the argument I was trying to make. This is exactly what I had in my mind, I just worded it in a clumsy and inflammatory way.

Probably the most significant is just the lack of a roadmap

Yes! Absolutely. But the lack of a road map is only a barrier, not an immovable obstacle; it can be overcome and it's the working class families that go out of their way to 'normalise' education and HE in particular that enable social mobility in their children.

The issue of familiarity and comfort with debt is the one part of your argument that I don't think my argument has an answer for. That said, the decision is an internal locus of control issue, not an external one. You have a choice to make and you can chose to let it be a barrier or you can chose to take to take on the debt. The government has made it very clear that you won't pay a penny until your earnings are above a certain level so what have you got to lose?

I think the social mobility issue is extremely complicated and one that does not lend itself to simple headlines (however much the OECD likes to pretend). For large parts of society, there are tremendous opportunities for all kinds of mobility and most work places are far more diverse (IMO) than parents and grandparents generations were. My older son started at Uni recently and shares with guys from very different backgrounds (school, social, race, nationality) and benefits from it. His peers are far more heterogenous that those I went to Uni with. Plus opportunities to travel, study and work overseas are greater and information and access made easier via the web etc.

But there is also segments of society that are missing out on all of this completely, and for for well documented reasons. For them mobility is becoming a more distant dream and exclusion, deprivation and the obvious consequences of these factors becoming more obvious. Just to add a little spark to the tinder, I will suggest that the reform (sic) of UK education when I was young has to bear a significant responsibility followed by individual parents. Pity that it's the young that then suffer the consequences.