Indeed Binners, it's like winning life's lottery to be born British....the rest of the knew this once and wanted to join in, sadly they got silly ideas into their heads about independence and the rest is history.
Arrogance and ignorance alive and well in STW world .
Can some one help me out here. I've been searching on the web for the last leader/president of the Palestinian state that existed where Israel is now. Anyone know who it was? Just interested as to the governing history pre-Israel.
C'mon Israel, I'm backing them for the win. If I'd had the history of the Jewish people, I'd probably be a little over zealous too.
I'd rather have a Middle East full of Israels rather than what is likely to emerge in 10-20 years time as a consequence of the 'Arab spring'.
Well the history 'pre israel' at some point gets even more complex than Binners' description. Those of you spouting that we took the land of the Palestinians and gave it to the Jews should read a bit of classical antiquity history and realise that this isn't the first times this has happened. No one has a right to claim the land as theirs but they all have a right to call it home. Unfortunately we as species have yet to find a way around the thorny issue of tribalism and avert the problem of many tribes calling the same place home without fighting over it. So instead we keep them separated by border (and they still fight over it). The Jews were there long before the Arabs.
GT - I didn't miss anything, did I? I thought that I was quite comprehensive.
I've never been to Israel, but it must be ace! Otherwise why would all those prophets, sons of god and all that, been born there? Unless they were confused by all the sand and had actually been aiming for Southport?
Not if the arab world get round to using biological weapons, especailly the sort that can be genetically targeted against jews...
The Jews were there long before the Arabs.
But aren't they all Abrahamic people, effectively all the same race genetically, the only difference is in what they believe and the holy book they follow?
Well yes they are all Abrahamic faiths but to be accurate the first Abrahamic faith was Judaism and at some point it all got a bit shouty and its been a bit shouty and angry ever since.
Binnes I kind of liked you outline. Quite entertaining!
And the Canaanites and others were there long before the Jews and Arabs so the claim on the land based on who was there first is pretty weak. In any case ethnically speaking there is alot linking a large proportion of Israelis and Palestinians, they are fundamentally the same people who have been divided by religion and from then on culture, conquest and history so neither side have an exclusive claim to call it home at the exclusion of the other.
The Canaanites essentially spoke the same language as the Israelites and the Moabites etc. and the Israelites had the habit of sometimes worshipping the same gods depending on their mood. The problems started when the Judean Peoples Front split from The People's Front of Judea....
On this principle, I hope the dinosaurs never come back. To be fair to them they were here before everyone. They'll be buggers to try and negotiate with, i reckon. definitely worse than Hamas!
WUNNUNERD! And wun!
If the dinosoars came back nobody would be able to agree if they acually existed. According to ultra-orthodox Judaism the world is only 5,700 and odd years old, meaning that the dinosaours could never have walked the earth. This would just further complicate the lack of general consensus about what is going on here.
I think the Samaritans could sort out ,if we armed them properly.
Are they still pussy footing ...? 🙄
C'mon ... less talk and more action please.
There should be war to help ease the world recession. 😈
So, to the important stuff:
Is mike really Fred?
Really?
Do we have any evidence? Seems a bit unlikely, but my bra-dar was never that good.
Can someone please start a thread slagging off LFC, just so we can be sure?
Somebodies got to say it........
MAYAN END OF THE WORLD 21/12/2012 ..... oh no....... I'm off to hide under a table for the next 36 days!
And don't tell me the Mayan's didn't allow for leap years either, I know that but it spoils the fun 😀
i wonder what things would be like if the british empire was still about like.
Well as long as you're British, it'd probably be bloody great! Abu Quatarder wouldn't be looking slightly less pleased with himself. and there would probably be more Earl Grey involved in proceedings. And carpet bombing. Possibly Calvary charges. And scones.
What's not to like?
A spokesman for the Israeli Government (who's exact function I missed) commented on R4 this morning that they couldn't care less about Gaza - as far as they were concerned it could become part of Egypt and then they'd only have to talk to the West Bank. This was strange as it was completley unprompted.
An Egyptian delegation is visiting Gaza today.
Hmmmm.
I can't imagine the inmates of the West Bank are celebrating that news
I think he was suggesting that there was more of a chance of meaningful discussion with Mahmoud Abbas than with Hamas - Abbas is more of a politico than a religious fanatic.
Well as long as you're British
Probably depends on which part of British society you are in.
Sorry if i'm reviving a topic that died because no one wanted to talk about it but just read something about gaza which was pretty interestingIm still unsure where I stand on the situation but know for a fact that civilian casualties are just as unnacceptable as they are anywhere in the world.
What I think we should remember however is that for every good bean in Gaza, there are 2 or 3 bad ones. It is run by a terrorist organization and as such the country is badly managed and is virtually on it's knees without an invasion so.. we come to the interesting fact that Gaza is unsustainable in it's current state - it has the 7th highest population growth rate IN THE WORLD. Look at it on a world map and remember to catch your jaw when it drops off. Something up with that.
Gaza has been a complete **** up for hundreds of years and the area has been a **** up for the last 2000.
I think my major problem with Israel is not that they are technically superior in terms of weapons and armaments, and not that it is retaliating against a terrorist organization but that it is currently doing so with a sledgehammer and not a scalpel.
If I throw 3 large rocks into my neighbors garden when he is in his sunlounger once a day 365 days a year, I can guarantee you that they will start being thrown back. He is a born again christian and irons his jeans.
Perhaps on an insane level, a well managed ground based intervention would be better in protecting the lives of civilians than just firing missiles into the strip? because we all know that just like the taliban, Hamas love nothing more than the opportunity to show that an army is killing innocents because all of their communication equipment and ammo dumps are in schools, hospitals and innocent peoples houses who are roped into "Helping the Brotherhood". I don't know what everyone else thinks but are we past the point of a diplomatic solution? I think some grievances are simply too deep for it to work and/or parties involved are unwilling to do so. After all you could argue that this issue actually began a thousand years ago.
Perhaps on an insane level, a well managed ground based intervention would be better in protecting the lives of civilians than just firing missiles into the strip?
Ground invasion would defeat the object of the whole operation though, as that would be massively unpopular with the voters, whereas rocketing Arabs from the safety of 30,000 feet makes good press and increases popularity for the ruling party.
You did realise this is all about votes and nothing to do with Terrorism didn't you!?!
nukeproof-- are you aware of the israeli land grabbing, the palestinian people have as much right to live in 'israel' as the israelis-- have you checked out the historical background ?
Wonder how you would react if similar happened to you and your brethren ?
the more Israel bombards, blockades, builds walls and restricts movement, aid, and everything, then the more resentment builds against it and the next generation grows up in Gaza resenting its neighbours.
So until Israel stops all the bullshit, it will simply build resentment against it from all quarters of the world.
I couldnt stand the place when I was there (Tel Aviv).
Yeah I wouldn't say i'm an expert but I think im more clued up than all the hipster "free palestine" contrarians who jump on board because it's fashionable. I studied middle eastern history for about 3 years.nukeproof-- are you aware of the israeli land grabbing, the palestinian people have as much right to live in 'israel' as the israelis-- have you checked out the historical background ?
I don't think any country should be forced to put up with a terrorist state, and it's definitely more complicated than most people seem to believe. I really do appreciate that.
All I know rudebwoy is that I wouldn't appreciate someone launching missiles into britain from france or ireland, that's for sure. That's essentially what's going on here. I'm talking purely geographical here and this is in no way related to the irish troubles, but imagine if the taliban or hamas was firing rockets at britain and people were dying from ireland - would we put up with it?
The land grabbing issues are complex yes, and it's not all Israels fault. Don't forget that Egypt invaded after british rule crumbled (rightly so) in favor of the All Palestine government. Egypt did more damage in 10 years than Israel has in 50. And that was BEFORE Hamas had a foothold. And again, there are deep wounds at play here. Deep wounds that neither palestine nor Israel will EVER forget. Wounds that people both pro and anti Israel will never have and never will experience. And that's why i'm on the fence (for now).
You also have to take into account that it is a political minefield and as I said before a **** up. Israel has had it's more than unfair share of invasion and land grabbing i.e. the west bank when it was annexed by Jordan. Don't forget also that whilst the Palestinian exodus was cruel, the changes in the area after the Arab Israeli war created 7 to 800,000 Jewish refugees as well - the majority of whom fled to the newly reated Israel because there was a very real threat of them being killed in cold blood by disgruntled Arab Coalition soldiers who were angry about Jordans illegal annexation of the west bank - something we, unfortunately condoned (if only as a way of appeasing the Arab coalition).
It's just one of those things where you start reading about it in hope of coming to some clear, moral decision for yourself (at least I do personally), but it's like sticking your head in a black hole because there is seemingly no end to the causes and symptoms of what we see today. Clear as mud.
Sorry - long post. 😡
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Seriously, that map is hilarious and proves nothing. An internet map that only goes back to 1946 is hardly gold bullion when it comes to deciding who the bad guy is.
Yes. Obviously it should go back 2000 years or so: That really is the way to go if you want to solve a contemporary problem
It's a contemporary problem rooted in a history of cruelty and oppression. There is no outcome other than all out war unless people understand the issue. You have to be pretty short sighted not to see that.
I don't think any country should be forced to put up with a terrorist state, and it's definitely more complicated than most people seem to believe. I really do appreciate that.
Yes it's a very complicated situation, but there's a massive power imbalance here - one side holds all the cards. And saying 'no country should have to put up with a terrorist state' is massively oversimplifying the issue. No-one should have to put up with having their homes destroyed, land taken, water cut off, livelihoods ruined, families killed either.
yep, one big pile of poo all right, but it does rely on 'western 'support to fuel the thing.
Palestine needs to be shared, it can happen, look at lebanon, not perfect, but preferable to the unsustainable situation in Palestine, the Israeli State needs to accept that the only way to long term security and peace is sharing and embracing with all the people of palestine.
I think only a revolutionary change in the region will bring that about, and as long as they have US support that is remote 😥
Rudebwoy, I don't know whether we should refer to Gaza as palestinian or Hamas though. It's run by a terrorist regime who are more than happy to behead their own and drag them through the streets behind motorbikes. Can we prove they represent the people until they hold an election? No. And then the election would be rigged anyway.
Hamas (or as you say "palestine") do not want to share Gaza. Not just because they think it's their land (they took it from someone else a thousand odd years ago anyway - mainly the Jews) but they have a fundamental, and religious problem with Jews. The small majority who "run" Gaza would sooner kill their own family than negotiate any sort of truce with Israel because they are extremists. It's death or glory for them, and that's not an ideal counterpart in such a fierce political situation. They don't care about their own "people" they've displayed that time and time again. It's like playing chess with someone who would rather throw a wobbly and flip the board over than lose to you. They will win either way in their eyes, either by seeing Gaza left in rubble, or continue firing rockets into neighboring states because they have to live up to their 'terrorist roots'.
Seriously, that map is hilarious and proves nothing.
I'm genuinely interested in this, can anyone explain why some would consider this map 'a joke'? Did Israel steal land or not, because it looks an awful lot like they did.
Did Israel steal land or not, because it looks an awful lot like they did.
If you oppose Israeli crimes against humanity then yes.
If you support Israel's need to defend itself through expansion and aggression then no.
That is two yeses with a different explanation for each Yoss
There can be no doubt they illegally occupy and settle land though you could debate how justified they are in taking it illegally and settling it I guess
It's run by a terrorist regime who are more than happy to behead their own and drag them through the streets behind motorbikes.
By their own do you mean Israeli spies? i am not saying it is correct but if we were to list the crimes done to collaborators it would be a long list and says something about humanity rather than Hamas.
Can we prove they represent the people until they hold an election? No. And then the election would be rigged anyway.
So they cannot prove it to you then anyway 🙄 FWIW they are elected anyway - have you considered reading on the subject you are discussing?
The small majority who "run" Gaza would sooner kill their own family than negotiate any sort of truce with Israel because they are extremists
I cannot believe you can say this gibberish- new log on for Kaesae?
The rest was equally illinformed tosh that was frankly amusingly OTT hyperbole except for the fact you seem to believe it 😕
Ps here is how Hamas came to power and what they initially did
In its election manifesto for the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Hamas omitted a call for an end to Israel, though it did still call for armed struggle against the occupation.[108][109] Hamas won the 2006 elections, winning 76 of the 132 seats to Fatah's 43.[110] Seen by many as primarily a rejection of the Fatah government's corruption and ineffectiveness, the Hamas victory seemingly had brought to an end 40 years of PLO domination of Palestinian politics.[110][111]In early February 2006, Hamas offered Israel a 10-year truce "in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem,"[7] and recognition of Palestinian rights including the "right of return."[112] Mashal added that Hamas was not calling for a final end to armed operations against Israel, and it would not impede other Palestinian groups from carrying out such operations.[113]
After the election, the Quartet on the Middle East (the United States, Russia, the European Union (EU), and the United Nations) stated that assistance to the Palestinian Authority would only continue if Hamas renounced violence, recognized Israel, and accepted previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements, which Hamas refused to do.[114] The Quartet then imposed a freeze on all international aid to the Palestinian territories.[115]
In 2006 after the Gaza election, Hamas leader sent a letter addressed to George W. Bush where he among other things declared that Hamas would accept a state on the 1967 borders including a truce. However, the Bush administration did not reply.
Here is list of democratic election in Israel and conflict operations
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Its not quite as simple or clear cut as you suggest
Hamas flowered as a result of the inability of the PLO/Arafat to defend their peoples interests against the israeli state-- too much revisionism IIRC-- so a more 'militant' group has succeeded, no denying its fundamentalism-- but these things have not happened in a bubble, other more fundamentalists have gained ground throughout the region, including in Israel, so the rhetoric is coloured with uncompromising slogans, behind the scenes they have to deal with each other, without losing 'face' to their respective power bases.
There are progressive movements on both sides, but at the moment their voices are not heard, but one thing for sure, things will always change !
Hamas (or as you say "palestine") do not want to share Gaza. Not just because they think it's their land (they took it from someone else a thousand odd years ago anyway - mainly the Jews) but they have a fundamental, and religious problem with Jews. The small majority who "run" Gaza would sooner kill their own family than negotiate any sort of truce with Israel because they are extremists. It's death or glory for them, and that's not an ideal counterpart in such a fierce political situation. They don't care about their own "people" they've displayed that time and time again. It's like playing chess with someone who would rather throw a wobbly and flip the board over than lose to you. They will win either way in their eyes, either by seeing Gaza left in rubble, or continue firing rockets into neighboring states because they have to live up to their 'terrorist roots'.
It's interesting that you have this big diatribe about religious extremists, but no mention of the Israeli religious extremists, who hold considerable political clout.
Seriously, that map is hilarious and proves nothing. An internet map that only goes back to 1946 is hardly gold bullion when it comes to deciding who the bad guy is.
Why would it go back earlier than Israel's existence?
earlier than Israel's existence?
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When do we start annexing southern Denmark then?
OK so that is 3000 years ago. Are you seriously basing modern policy on this. What about the warcrimes committed by Joshua at Jericho?
Do you think the Welsh should have the right to occupy London?
Any solution has to forget the distant & (probably not-so-distant) past.