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yes, but it's better than living in mud huts and being terrified of the sun god in the sky.
I miss TJ....you lot are sh1t at arguing.
@kaesea, if you don't vote you have no voice and in my view no right to comment. Not voting isn't a "protest" it isn't making any kind of statement, it's simply opting out an shirking your responsibility. You and others might not care about politics but I assume you do care about what this country is like to live in. You are one creating an "elite" by not participating.
The time you have spent posting on here would be far better spent voting.
+1 to all that stuff about floating voters and winning them over with some exciting topical stuff in your new spangly election manifesto.
I would add that the floating voter bit is all the worse since it is only the floating voters in marginal-ish seats that clinch it. Floating voters in safe seats make no difference at all to general election results in FPTP.
You could have a 'swing' of 15,000 votes in my constituency and still not shift the current MP as it is a hugely safe seat. Meanwhile in the adjacent constituency, (with the many of the same local issues/employers etc) voting has always been more close ,and over the years the change from conservative to labour to conservative could have been made with swings of just 6-700 votes.
Democracy is flawed because it allowed people like Hitler to get power quite legally
Dear me what a poor argument. Genocide isn't legal even if you're in power!
Loum hit upon a good point up there. PR FTW!
The floating voters are a small minority who get to decide which way an election swings, and generally have little understanding of politics compared to committed voters.
What is it about politics that eludes those who do not consistantly vote for one party? What is the deeper understanding that those who [i]always vote for the same party[/i] hold?
What has happened to Kaesae? it used to be all spouting forth about bearings for bikes and denigrating the Royal Mail for mislaying parcels. Now all this Higher Grade modern studies nonsense?
Kaesae - you need to ask a sensible structured question to get a sensible answer.
For a start - what do you mean by "modern democracy" ? In the Peoples Democratic Republic of China they hold democratic elections (Tick box A to vote for the Communist Party, tick box B to vote against the Communist Party, and have your entire family sent to labour camps).
They get a good turnout.
By "flawed" do you mean, not achieving what it is designed to achieve ? Our system of democratic elections in the UK is designed to elect representatives to conduct the administration required to run a country. Under those terms, it seems to be working fine.
You may not like the outcome, but that doesn't make the democratic system flawed. As others have pointed out, it's the best we have. Are you really suggesting every single administrative decision of government should be run over your desk first ?
What is it about politics that eludes those who do not consistantly vote for one party? What is the deeper understanding that those who always vote for the same party hold?
No single answer...
Many vote for the party their parents voted for... Is that just laziness / indoctrination? Possibly
Or does it reflect consistency in principles and values within that family group?
I have always voted consistently for the same party. That party is still the party that best represents the mix of values that I hold close as my personal set of values. It's is far from a perect match, but that will always be the case.
I'd be more concerned about the millions of the British public that follow whatever a particular tabloid tells them to do... 🙁
What is it about politics that eludes those who do not consistantly vote for one party? What is the deeper understanding that those who always vote for the same party hold?
No single answer...
Many vote for the party their parents voted for... Is that just laziness / indoctrination? Possibly
Or does it reflect consistency in principles and values within that family group?
I have always voted consistently for the same party. That party is still the party that best represents the mix of values that I hold close as my personal set of values. It's is far from a perect match, but that will always be the case.
I'd be more concerned about the millions of the British public that follow whatever a particular tabloid tells them to do... 🙁
He was commenting on apartheid in SA and said something along the lines of 'The longer this situation goes on, the more likely it is that the inevitable revolution will be led by fanatics instead of moderates'.
Although in fact that's not how it turned out.
There are all sorts of shades of grey between democracy and dictatorship
Like oligarchy, which would have been a more appropriate way to describe the Soviet Union after Stalin's death and apartheid South Africa than dictatorship.
Democracy is flawed because it allowed people like Hitler to get power quite legally.
Hitler didn't take power legally, tho - hence the Beer Hall Putsch, Enablng Act etc.
I have it on good [s]authority[/s] faith that the country is being run by the Royal Family who are actually giant, disguised, blood-sucking lizards.
[quote=hels ]Kaesae - you need to ask a sensible structured question to get a sensible answerkaesae is currently serving out a temporary ban (swear filter evasion and being a bit repetitive with controversial threads). He'll be along in a couple of days to respond.
If only a small percentage of individuals turn out for an election because the majority of [list]people do not believe in the system
assumption
I dont vote I'm happy with the system.
Just on the pedantry. Dictatorship is an individual in power a select group by what ever method is an oligarchy.
Democracy is flawed even Athens never got it perfect. They had slaves and genocide,
Who killed Plato?
Plato died in bed with a young woman, way to go!
I think you mean Socrates? Hemlock cup etc? Killed by a jury of his peers.
"Plato died in bed with a young woman" she was playing the flute ......
yes and no.
As I recall only adult male citizens who had served in the army could vote in the ancient Athenian run at Democracy around 1 tenth. Half the city population were slaves.
I think it is safe to surmise that "modern democracy" is quite far away from that model.
Kaesae - you need to ask a sensible structured question to get a sensible answer.
Can that please be made into an official Forum Rule.
Because there seems to be no way Kaesae (and the sunshine band) could do that, and we can avoid all these threads he keeps starting.
Because there seems to be no way Kaesae (and the sunshine band) could do that, and we can avoid all these threads he keeps starting.
You must admit that once the thread moved away from the 'tinfoil hat brigade' there were some interesting points made.
Interesting points made by who though ?
If I'm honest, mainly me. 😉
I like his threads. I'm not sure why, there's something quaint about them.
molgrips - MemberDemocracy is flawed because it allowed people like Hitler to get power quite legally
Dear me what a poor argument. Genocide isn't legal even if you're in power!
You miss the point.Democracy in Germany allowed Hitler to introduce legislation that discriminated against various minorities because he had gained power in the German parliament.Human rights need to be safeguarded,democracy or the rule of the majority doesn't necessarily do this.In fact it is sadly all too common for elected majorities to discriminate against their minority rivals in legislation allocation of resources and provision of services.Jim Crowe laws anyone?
AFAIK Hitler became a legal dictator using the democratic process through the Enabling act didn't he?
And the Beer Hall putsch was an early failed attempt at a coup which saw him imprisoned for treason.
And wasn't "No taxation wthout representation" the rallying cry in the American War of independence yet 0ver 200 years later 16-18 year olds can work and pay tax but still not vote?
I am sure that the UK and other nations considered themselves to be democracies too long before universal suffrage.
Just on the pedantry. Dictatorship is an individual in power a select group by what ever method is an oligarchy.
The term dictatorship is generally accepted within a much looser context (although perhaps not on STW!) ie [i]"absolute or supreme power or authority"[/i]. As an example, Argentina under the last junta was quite correctly described as a military dictatorship. Whilst it might have been more correct to describe it as a military oligarchy, to do so would have been somewhat bizarre. I have certainly never heard it described as such.
And organisations such as the United Nations which have extensive legal and literary advise at their disposal, liberally use the term 'dictatorship' in this context. So as someone who didn't go beyond CSE English I'm happy for them to have the judgement call on the matter 🙂
[...] iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli / uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim / imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se / continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, / panem et circenses. [...]
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)
No one cares,
well almost no one, we vote the way we do because that is the way we believe we should, very few people eve sit down and wonder why we are where we are. Until more do nothing will actually change.
Human rights need to be safeguarded,democracy or the rule of the majority doesn't necessarily do this.
Democracy isn't just majoritarianism though.
The Enabling Law was not passed democratically, nor even legally. The Reichstag Fire Decree was not legal. The Nazis' taking power was dependent on actions which were neither democratic nor even ostensibly legal.
I struggle with long sentences but here's a comic to lighten the mood:
[img] 
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I don't care
they should just pick MP's at random - like jury service. Anyone who want's to be an MP should be excluded on principle.
Yeah - surgeons, actors and teachers, too.
they should just pick MP's at random - like jury service. Anyone who want's to be an MP should be excluded on principle.
Posted 6 hours ago # Report-Post
konabunny - Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy#Selection_by_lot_.28allotment.29
Seems reasonableYeah - surgeons, actors and teachers, too.
Why the comparison?
The Enabling Law was not passed democratically, nor even legally. The Reichstag Fire Decree was not legal. The Nazis' taking power was dependent on actions which were neither democratic nor even ostensibly legal.
Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_Fire_Decree
Modern democracies may not so blatantly bully their opponents but blackmail,bribery,trial by media (Levension Enquiry anyone?)are all subtle persuaders.
We could argue about the effects and policies of modern politics or Democracy for an eternity.
However better to stay focused on the fact that the political system and Democracy is all about gaining and keeping power, status and influence.
The collective motivation of politicians and subsequent objectives are not to work with people or to improve the situation or quality of life for the people in this country, they are only thinking in terms of their own power!
As I write this all politicians are waging war against other parties and members of their own party in an attempt to seize or hold onto power.
However when you have any kind of conflict regardless of the type physical, psychological or any other. Resources and man power must be used up in that conflict.
Look at the past 2,000 years or more of our races history and ask how much of our resources have been wasted on conflict? what could we have done with all of those resources?
Even now as our world runs out of resources and it's very climate changes we continue to embrace this destructive philosophy of power, influence and ultimately control, through forms of war!
What is needed is a "conscious revolution" where those of us who are not insane or delusional, begin to work together for our own better good and to ensure the future of our race!
What is needed is a "conscious revolution" where those of [b]us who are not insane or delusional[/b], begin to work together for our own better good and to ensure the future of our race!
You've just planted a seed of elitism, which will blossom with time and influence into power, followed by tyranny.
You [i]will[/i] be corrupted.
You [i]will[/i] turn into that which you fight.
kaesae for PM,President and benign dictator!
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Goodnight.
Deomcracy is fundamentally flawed because human nature is fundamentally selfish.
On balance, politicans are more concerned with retaining power than doing the right thing for the country, and individuals vote for the party who will do mostly what [i]they[/i] want, not necessarily what's best for the country.
Politicians seem to spend too much time trying to be all things to all men & keep everyone happy ... rather than sticking to their convictions on policy because they firmly believe it's the right decision.
I mean, how many policy u-turns have we seen? Too many. It just gives the impression they have are weak & have no confidence or belief in themselves. It's not surprising the public have little confidence in Govt.
Or maybe I've become overly cynical.
I mean, how many policy u-turns have we seen? Too many. It just gives the impression they have are weak & have no confidence or belief in themselves. It's not surprising the public have little confidence in Govt.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't. They announce a policy that proves unpopular then listen to the people and reverse it and they're flip-flopping. Stick with it and they're elitist dicks. Sometimes they're courting opinion for the wrong reason, sometimes they're doing what we ask (just not frequently).
Human nature is not fundamentally flawed 😯 is it not human nature to strive, to adapt and to attempt to contemplate creation and our place in it.
Do we not have the capacity to understand the very nature of creation and to create technologies based on that understanding?
The point I am making is that we are being conditioned to act in a certain way that is against our natures, you do not see new born babies who are selfish or violent irrational even, they learn to be those things later on, because they have to adapt to the environment the are conditioned in.
If we are to have a future as a race that does not involve constant individual and mass conflict, we must first start to find a different way to perceive the world and ourselves.
We must decide as individuals with free though and will. What is more important WAR and our continued annihilation of our way of life, individual cultures and as such our entire race?
Or Peace and the capacity to not only live without constant conflict, but also to realize the potential destiny of our race!
is it not human nature to strive, to adapt and to attempt to contemplate creation and our place in it.Do we not have the capacity to understand the very nature of creation
I try do all of the above and then at other times I find that what I really want is a quick **** whilst looking at some naked ladies.
The trouble is that 'human nature' as you call it is not a simple striving towards the stars but a veritable smorgasbord of competing drives and desires and the one with the upper hand is constantly changing.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... naked ladies.
Er, what was the question again?
and the one with the upper hand is constantly changing.
Is that 'cos it's getting tired...
Perhaps, but it still comes down to attitude and motivation, the majority of people these days have delusional attitudes and their motives are for the most part primitive and short sighted.
Democracy is simply a game where useless idiots convince even bigger useless idiots that they can help them, it doesn't matter that nothing gets done because there are loads of distractions to keep the simple minded useless idiots amused.
Democracy is simply a game where useless idiots convince even bigger useless idiots that they can help them, it doesn't matter that nothing gets done because there are loads of distractions to keep the simple minded useless idiots amused.
Which camp are you in? Or are you one of the cognoscienti?
I am not convinced by talk unless it is backed up with actions that lead to benefits.
I do not get involved in politics so I would say that I am a rebellious useless idiot, everyone on this planet is a useless idiot. We are all so arrogant that we do not understand the fact that the universe does not respect useless idiocy as a reason for continued existence.
In reality we are living in direct contradiction to the laws of creation, sooner of later this delusionment and lack of respect, will catch up with our entire race!
In reality we are living in direct contradiction to the laws of creation
What are these laws of creation, who made them and how are we in contradiction of them?
the majority of people these days have delusional attitudes and their motives are for the most part primitive
Where do you dream that up from.
To conclude that everyone else is "delusional" , you must know the truth ????
[b]otherwise you are just spouting crap In order to sound clever [/b]
So what is this "truth" that all us primative delusional types are unaware of then ??
I think it might involve the 3rd order of Thetans.
The truth is that which cannot be contradicted or disproven by logical analysis relative to circumstance or context.
As for mentioning that those that inhabit this planet are both delusional and primitive, have you seen the the current global situation we are in?
We had everything, a world that was a paradise brimming with resources and potential. We turned it into a shit x a shit with shit on top that is also sinking into an ocean of shit.
How Advanced as opposed to primitive and how sane / rational as opposed to delusional in your honest truthful opinions, do you really think we are?
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter” Sir Winston Churchill
That, and the fact that a very large percentage of the population would rather vote on some shite TV program than for something that actually has an affect on their lives.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying in this thread kaesae. I believe that our species will have to undergo massive changes in the direction of peace and co-operation instead of conflict or we will not see this millennium out.
The fundamental flaw in democracy was that you had to get ****wits to vote for you.....that was until they realised it was easier to get them not to vote at all......
The fundamental flaw in democracy was that you had to get ****wits to vote for you.....
I can't see why you think this might pose a problem - the two parties in government today are the same two parties which were in government before democracy was introduced into the UK.
Despite the mechanism existing in theory for there to be drastic political changes, the "****wits" which you speak of always vote as they are suppose to vote.
Voting is designed to maintain the status quo, something which it does remarkable well - other than perhaps a few cosmetic changes of course. If voting fails to deliver the correct results it is simply abolished/suspended.
It's the old "Worst form, except all the others". I don't think anyone thinks democracy is perfect- the failings are obvious to see. But what's the alternative?
I heard a woman in the polling station ask one of the campaigners, "Which party is that one with the nice smile from?" after a little while, "Yes, that's it, Tony Blair. Which one is he from? Labour? Thanks, I'll vote for them". Democracy!
You want to know about voting. I’m here to tell you about voting.
Imagine you’re locked in a huge underground nightclub filled with sinners, whores, freaks and unnameable things that rape pit bulls for fun. And you ain’t allowed out until you all vote on what you’re going to do tonight.
You like to put your feet up and watch ‘Republican Party Reservation’. They like to have sex with normal people using knives, guns, and brand-new sexual organs that you did not know existed.
So you vote for television, and everyone else, as far as your eye can see, votes to **** you with switchblades.
That’s voting. You’re welcome.
Thanks northwind for that.
What's the alternative to democracy and extinction, because that's the direction we're heading in by the way.
I have to answer, working together for those of us that are getting off what could best be described as a sinking shite of a way of life!
If this is democracy and modern living you can shove it, as far as I'm concerned there is nothing too lose and everything to gain.
I.m a useful idiot, Kaesae, have you read much marx, trotsky, gramsci ?
Haven't read any of those, but let's face it common sense ( logic / reason) is sadly lacking in modern culture.
Hopefully it will catch on sometime soon!
but let's face it common sense ( logic / reason) is sadly lacking in [s]modern culture[/s] [b]anything that you have ever posted on the whole of the internet[/b].
Haven't read any of those, but let's face it common sense ( logic / reason) is sadly lacking in [b]popular[/b] modern culture.
There's your problem. You're looking in the wong places.
You're looking in the wong places.
So there's no similarities between "common" and "popular" then ?
I still think you should give up this pseudo-intellectualism lark and reform the Sunshine Band.
So there's no similarities between "common" and "popular" then ?
Are you arguing that common sense = logic / reason? 🙂
Hels...! 😆