English (for the telephone and business) and North East Derbyshire for normal life - two different languages!!
A colleague's then-fianceë hailed from Kenya and had a strong Manchester accent. She used to ring up her granny and hear complaints about the elephants getting into the vegetable patch so I assume that was in Swahili.
a native of my age would inevitably end up noticing.
Wondering what the Spanish equivalent of “Garlic? Bread?”, “Four candles”, etc would be!
Damn! Well anything starting with W or V will properly mess up Scandinavians half the time.
Funny you should mention squirrel, I pronounced it "squerrel" for years until 2-3 years ago.
My nephews I referred to above grew up speaking both english and dutch hence why they are totally bilingual. MY sister is british, married a dutchman and the kids were born in the netherlands. they spoke mainly english at home and Dutch at school.
Jodie Foster, interview in french
Wondering what the Spanish equivalent of “Garlic? Bread?”, “Four candles”, etc would be!
That would be "digamelon" and probably loads more. Which I don't know 🙂
Idioms, humour, movies/tv shows, social norms: hundreds of things you do subconsciously as a native of a certain region will be picked up by a keen observer quickly and you can’t possibly master all of that in a single lifetime.
Maybe you can’t, but don’t project your shortcomings onto everyone else
Jodie Foster is excellent, that's about as close to perfect as a non-native will get. There's still something that tells me she's not native. The video is much cut, I suggest that any give aways were in the cut sections. I watched another and she made a couple of errors in agreements one of which she quickly corrected, she is aware of her own weaknesses. I repeat though, excellent.
Note how she starts saying réalisateurs and corrects to realisatrices. She has to work on it, as do I but without the panache.
I can’t imaging living in a different country and speaking their language for so long that my English would become rusty and the other language would become dominiant, but I guess it would be bound to happen.
A friend of my Mum's from her university days moved to The Netherlands after graduating. Met a Dutch guy, married, 2 kids, she's lived out there since she was in her early 20's.
They've visited us a few times and she really struggled with her English sometimes; you can see the thought process she has to go through to speak in what is her original native tongue. She thinks, dreams, speaks, reads and writes in Dutch, has done for decades to the extent that her original English is very much a second language for her.
Her two children were completely fluent in English from their primary school days albeit with a definite accent.
Talking about getting accents, my ex-wife was Swiss-german and had a huge problem understanding a scouse mate of mine. Whenever he called she would recognise the voice and then just hand the phone to me.
I didn’t think his accent was that bad, but I think there was something about it that she just could not process. Her English was essentially perfect but, as you say, you could tell she was not native.
Oh, and a thanks to all at STW and Bikemagic before that. They're the only English media sources I've found sufficiently interesting to check out and contribute to most days, it means I can still talk about most things in English. If you don't use it you lose it.
I've grown to dislike American cinema, find British TV news laughable propaganda and simpering judgemental bollocks, the British press irritating... . But you guys and girls, you remind me there is a little corner of the UK where sanity prevails.
Not me, but my sister.
She spent 6mths living in Northern France as a 9yr old.
Came back pretty much fluent, then as an adult she has lived (and raced for France as a pro athlete) in the South/South West since she was 25ish.
People assume she's French, but can never quite place her accent, they just think she's from a different region!
Also, when she speaks English, it's now with a slight French accent.
Why go through all that trouble when I’ll always be a foreigner, no matter how long I spend here?
TBH you’d be a foreigner in Bristol even if you came from any other part of the U.K. 🙂
Some really good observations made so far. When I moved to Germany my german was non-existent. I also had a job in the university on an EU project that had to be reported in English, so was under strict orders to only speak english in the workplace to help everyone else to improve theirs (fat chance lol). I only really learned the language from my caving club hign in the Swabian hills south of Stuttgart which means I speak Gemran with one of the strongest German dialects out there (think Glaswegian!). The advantage is that the accent is so broad that many of the variable endings to words (der, die, das, den, dem, etc) are often slurred into a generic durr!
The point about shared cultural references was bought home to me while watching "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" in Germany. I could very very rarely get any of the first 2-3 questions right, as they are always silly things like refernces to proverbs, nursery rhymes, sayings or kids books, popular tv programmes etc. If you hadn't grown up in the country you would have no way of knowing the answers to all those questions.
What I will say is that one of the great joys of becoming competent in another language is being able to watch people who you have only ever seen on TV speaking english, revert back to their native tongue. I am thinking of people like Arnie, Borris Becker, Seb Vette, Juergen Klinsman, etc. I was actually a bit blown away the first time I watch F1 on German TV and saw that almost everyone interview replied in German. In fact most of the non-Germna drivers do interviews in german to the german media.
I really hated languages in school, failed misserably at every subject we were offered and have a grade E french "O" level to my name. KNowing what I do know I wish I had tried harder. However, with hindsight I think language teaching in schools (certainly back then) was appalling. I think teaching of modern languages would be better taught by spending 3 years in secondary school teaching pupils about language structure so that the differences and similarities between all languages start to make sense. In the past Latin was used as a basis for this, but I think there is scope for a far broader and more interesting course focusing on loads of different languages, wihtou any need to learn the languages, just why they are constructed as they are and how that relates to toher languages. MAybe then the final 2 years of secondary scholl pupils can opt to learn specific languages. I have always felt I have been playing catch-up learning German as I never had that basic grounding in how languages work.
We're watching the Americans at the moment - a drama about Russian spies living undercover as Americans. It's really good and all that, but the least plausible thing in it for me is that the spies' English, learned in Russia lets them pass as native Americans. As others have noted, it's really only kids brought up in two countries and bilingual families who can do this and even then there are signs. However, as with so much quality American drama, thinking the Wire, the lead actors are English and Welsh and most of the US audience won't pick this up. So, I dunno, accents can be learned...
(On kids, we moved out of London when our oldest was nine and she never lost her London inflections; her younger brothers picked up the Yorkshire, which is pretty typical.)
I spent a lot of time in Germany and Switzerland as a teenager. I spoke fluently, but was often aware that my accent would give me away eventually, and once when hitchhiking through Austria back up towards Munich the driver looked sideways at me and asked where I was from. I replied that I was English, and he expressed complete surprise. He explained that the way I spoke was subtly "non German" but no way did I sound like an English person speaking German. He thought perhaps I was Dutch or possibly even Polish.
I studied linguistics at Uni, and the most recurring themes of give-aways are intonation, emphasis and cadence. Not to mention pronunciation of certain language specific sounds. Very few English speakers can pronounce "Deutsch" correctly for example. We have to wrestle our tongue into the wrong part of our mouths and push air sideways past it to get the "tsch" consonant, so we give up and make it sound like the tch at the end of "Dutch" If you listen to a German saying it you can more or less hear all four letters being pronounced in turn. The German "R" is a moveable feast, and changes depending on where it features in the word, and conversely it's the one consonant that Germans really struggle to get right when speaking English.
A friend of mine, Des, lived in Guttersloh, his Dad being based there in the 70s. When visiting him there I met a guy who spoke perfect English. He was about 17 or 18 and in fact had an accent that would have put him in the South East of the UK. He'd clearly grown up with the Brit kids from the Airbase and it showed. I was beginning to think he was absolutely flawless, a true bi-lingual, until he asked me if was "staying BY Des". The only give-away I ever noticed. He always had the last laugh as his name was Uwe. No one could ever get that quite right.
People assume she’s French, but can never quite place her accent, they just think she’s from a different region!
I confirm, I was active in triathlon 1993-2015, the name was a bigger give away than the accent. She sounds different but you can't immediately put your finger on it.
An exercise that's even more revealing is if you get someone to sing. Here I am in French
and German
No spying for me then. 🙂
I didn’t think his accent was that bad, but I think there was something about it that she just could not process.
Many Americans struggle with British regional accents (some Brits do too!). When i lived in Missouri I worked with people with fairly strong Welsh (Valley), Glaswegian and Geordie accents. I'd often have to 'translate' what they were saying for some of my American colleagues.
Accents are great anyway, I never tired of overhearing an Italian colleague talking about Sheet Piles 🙂
bastard block-quote bollx, can't be arsed to try and edit it any more.
My swedish ex au paired in London for a few years in her early 20s and developed a posh London accent that completely hid the Swedish. People were generally very surprised to find out she wasn't from England. However in her written work it was more noticeable that she wasn't native
[strong]Scapegoat[/strong] wrote:
bastard block-quote bollx
sorry Scapegoat, what starnge language is this you speak? 😂🤣
Ha, my semi-famous 'little' sister 🙂 Very proud of her I am!
It was always funny hearing the pronunciation of her name 'Gessika 'arrizon' (or the hedgehog lady!)
Grew up in North Wales, so school was 100% Welsh apart from "English" lessons but English was spoken at home, friends' houses/aprents were probably 50/50 so it was entirely normal to be having conversations and just flick between them depending who in the room you were talking to. Same with the shops, you knew which ones were Welsh. We even got new Maths textbooks under some grant or other, and they were all Welsh, my mum was on the PTA and asked me what language they were in and I genuinely had to go back into school the next day and focus on reading it to figure it out.
Made moving to England at 11 a PITA as I might know the answers to the teacher's questions, but in Welsh which was utterly useless.
I think if you learn it as a kid you just accept it and it's 2nd nature, there's no internal monologue to translate like say GCSE French, so it's not difficult. It's like English as a 1st language, you don't learn all the irregular verbs as a list, or exceptions to the tense rules, you just know them. One of the KS2 exams was to translate a poem (including making it rhyme), something you'd probably not attempt in a 2nd language till A-Levels?
My wife is. She speaks English with an English accent. And on holiday was told that she spoke amazing German for an English person.
She is German.
I know a few people who grew up in Welsh-speaking households who sound perfectly normal when speaking English
This is somewhat different though as a Welsh accent is considered a native English one when it's really not, it's the accent that goes with the Welsh language. Which is why when non-Welsh speaking Welsh people learn the language they seem to have a lot less trouble with the accent.
I have met one or two French people who I'd have taken for English, and I have a very acute ear - but I didn't know their back-story, if they'd been brought up in England or not. I also once met an American woman who'd lived in Brittany for 40 years and her English was heavily accented and actually not that fluent! It is rarer to hear perfect English accents from French people than Germanic though, as you'd expect.
I seem to remember having a few words with Alpin's gf on the phone once and she sounded 100% British but I think she's of middle-eastern origin, living in Germany.
Indeed... My GF has a fairly strong Essex/Cockney twang.
Met in Australia and she spent lots of her time thereafter in Essex/London. It's her use of geezer, bird, and other colloquial words that let her getaway without being outed too early on.
She struggles at times listening to some accents (eg Glaswegian, Sunderland) but her Scottish impressum is getting better.
was told that she spoke amazing German for an English person.
This happens lots to us in Germany. We'll be speaking English with each other when someone will enter the conversation in English only for us to then switch to German. Throws them sometimes.
My German is pretty good, but as others have said, it's the Rs that blow my cover.
I've often been mistaken for a Bavarian when further up north. Use of des rather than bothering with der, die, das / dem den.
In fact I've had to translate some sentences for customers when colleagues of mine have mumbled something and then disappeared.
Agree with the posters liking using local slang to avoid bothering with the der die das die nonsense.
My kids confuse their German teachers by overuse of their granny's Fraenkish "des" all over the place.
Oh, and a thanks to all at STW and Bikemagic before that. They’re the only English media sources I’ve found sufficiently interesting to check out and contribute to most days, it means I can still talk about most things in English. If you don’t use it you lose it.
Very much this. I know some folks who've lived here 40+ years and now speak Spanglish, as if they're now translating into English. Also heard of language teachers in Japan getting sacked because they were too Japanese.
I grew up in near Durban, South Africa. Grew up in a really rural location. My parents were Scots, but all my friends were Afrikaans so grew up speaking that away from home. I also was fluent in Zulu.
Now having moved back here I no longer hear or speak them and really struggle to talk them. When I go back it all seems to come back but nowhere near as fluent as I was.
I've lived in France for over 15 years in total. Studied the language for over 10 years before that and was lucky to be exposed to it from a young age (my Dad is a French teacher). Hand on heart, I'm not truly bilingual, but I would describe myself as such in most circumstances.
To native speakers, they can tell that I'm not exactly French but they're often confused about where I'm actually from. I've been assumed to be Corsican, Belgian, Quebecois, etc. on many occasions. i.e. locals can tell I'm not quite French but after a short conversation I might still pass for a native speaker - just not their kind of native speaker.
I think language skills go up and down all the time. I have times where I speak mostly English (my wife is also Scottish, most of my clients are Brits and there are a lot of other ex-pats around). Equally, there are times I speak mostly French (like right now, where there are no British tourists and I'm teaching a LOT of French kids to snowboard!). I can feel my fluency and accent come and go in these different times. It's also much harder to speak French well when I'm tired. After a full day's teaching in French, I'm way more spun-out than I am if I'm speaking English all day.
Just, please, don't ask how I'm able to speak French when I have a Scottish accent. Especially if you're going to ask the question in a strong Scouse / Geordie / London / Aussie / American / Whatever accent. I may get grumpy. I get this a lot. My Dad also got it a lot and he had a degree in the language, had taught it for 25 years and had written books about learning it. I think he got even grumpier about it than me.
Side note, my brother lives in Sweden and has a Swedish wife. Sweden is almost a bilingual country, with English in use for a lot of people on a daily basis. My two nephews were properly bilingual by the time they were 2-3 years old, able to switch languages comfortably depending who they were talking to and even able to translate things for us when we were over there.
To be properly bilingual, I think you have to be exposed to it from a young age and be able to use the languages interchangeably. There’s a story about the author Jorge Luis Borges who apparently grew up speaking in one way to his nanny, another way to his parents. Turns out the first way was English, the second Spanish. To him as a child, it didn’t occur to him that they were different languages.
Personally, I started studying French at 8 at school, Spanish at 12 and took both all the way to BA(Hons) with distinction in oral Spanish. I went out with a non-English speaking Spaniard for 6 glorious months and have since worked in Barcelona and Paris. I’ve also picked up Nepali along the way so have been speaking various languages all my life. However, no matter how good a level I achieve, the best I reckon I can hit is fluent but not bi/tri/quadrilingual which I reckon means being able to pass yourself as a native. The best compliment I’ve received was when the French person I was chatting with couldn’t work out where I was from.
I,.every so often, wonder if the way languages was taught put lots of folk off. I will never be mistaken for french so why spend an age perfecting oui? Especially when I then went on holiday spent 4 weeks to France. The French i spoke when I got back was much better for youthful conversation with teenage French girls but not for passing Scottish exams. And my languid drawn out southern oui was totally wrong, apparently.
However, no matter how good a level I achieve, the best I reckon I can hit is fluent but not bi/tri/quadrilingual which I reckon means being able to pass yourself as a native.
On that basis you can get to be the governor of California, EU deputy, Democratic party representative, major of your town, minister... without being bilingual - which is nonsense. Think of all the people who have done great things in their countries of adoption whilst retaining an accent that gives away their country of origin, yet still expressing themselves as well as the intellectual elite of their country of adoption.
A Polish friend has taught French in French schools, sure she has an accent but her French is better than all of the kids and most of their parents. My son would run rings around you in English in a discussion on political science, philosophy, sociology... with his French accent.
On a personal level, I make no effort with accent in any of the languages I speak, I'm me, people can take or leave me, and if the accent they perceive is a problem for them I'd rather they leave me, because that's xenophobia.
C2 is bilingual whatever your accent:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F34739
So would anyone consider themselves to be truly bi- (or even multi-)lingual? Could you pass yourselves off as a native in more than one country?
It's almost 2 different things.
My ex was brought up in France from age 2 .. she speaks fluent French and English but not the same French and English. Her French is somewhat guttural (learned in the playground) vs her English for speaking to parents so she can easily pass herself as French but not the same person as in English.
One of my other mates was brought up in Spanish as a first language until 2-3 then English and speaks Parisian French and Bergundian to a level noone can tell. His spoken Bavarisch is native but his spoken Haupt Deutch not the same level... likewise his Italian has a regional spoken accent from "somewhere south".
I'm pretty crap but I did once score 4.5/5 on written French (AF) but my oral was picked up in bars vs reading for written so the two barely met.
[strong]stevextc[/strong] wrote:
It’s almost 2 different things.
Agreed, and apologies for my poor language skills in asking the question 🙂
I appreciate that many people are bilingual, in that they are completely proficient in a couple (or more) of languages. Indeed, my wife, who is early 50's, has spent more than half her life in the UK so far. Her spoken and written English are second to none. She has a first class degree from a UK university and recently had to sit O level English as proof of ability and got an A*. She is almost accent free, but there is no way a native Brit would not suspect something was not quite right after a couple of minutes of conversation. Being German I suspect it is her lack of a sense of humour that would be the first give away though 😁😁
I did German at University and my proficiency took off after actually living in the country for a few months. On top of that, I worked in Austria for a summer before starting at Uni in Osnabruck. The difference between the accents and colloquialisms was such that I was often able to pass myself off as Austrian to the Hochdeutschers of Northern Germany.
Some of the Germans that I lived with were very much bilingual and I learnt English / American colloquialisms from them. You wouldn't know some of them weren't English speaking natives.
I was thinking a bit more about my nephews. they do have a slightly odd intonation in their english. grammatically correct and they do nuance and can even make puns in english but there is something slightly odd in their intonation. Not an accent as such and hard to notice.
I think the Dutch have an easier time with English than other countries, since Dutch is the closest major language to English. When I worked there they had the most natural turn of phrase in English, I think and it was more widespread. Even amongst those who struggled a bit more - when they were speaking, it sounded pretty good. The Swedes were also excellent at this. Working with Finns and Swedes, even though the Finns could have superior vocabulary and grammar, the Swedes were always totally natural to talk to and understand. Of course we're in the same Germanic language group but Germans are on the whole nowhere near as natural sounding - in fact, you get some pretty odd effects from German speakers.
Not that any of this is a criticism of course, just an observation on the way languages work.
We learnt Russian in our secondary school as a 2nd mfl - odd choice for a state school but there you go.
I was rubbish but a friend at the time was much better. It turned into a career and years later I learnt he was living and working in Russia. By total chance I met up with him in France. He was with a work colleague and left alone with the work colleague for a few minutes they asked me how I knew him and I said we went to school together. The said they didn't realise he had gone to the UK to go to school. When I explained he hadn't 'gone to the UK' but was from the UK they were blown away. For years they thought he was a fellow Russian national. I guess that probably counts as bilingual!
I think the Dutch have an easier time with English than other countries, since Dutch is the closest major language to English. When I worked there they had the most natural turn of phrase in English, I think and it was more widespread. Even amongst those who struggled a bit more – when they were speaking, it sounded pretty good.
The main reason is diffrent IMO. Its a small country as well as for the dutch speaking part of Belgium. So many TV shows are imported and contrary to the bigger France for example means that it becomes to expensive tu dub the dialoges. Except for small kids programs they remain in English and are just subtitled. So you learn from a young age how its sounds and how phrases are built, and free extra vocabulary thanks to subtitles.
I hail from dutch speaking Belgium probably bilingual in Dutch and English and almost there in French too.
Think of all the people who have done great things in their countries of adoption whilst retaining an accent that gives away their country of origin, yet still expressing themselves as well as the intellectual elite of their country of adoption.
@Educator - I seem to have hit a nerve. Going back to the OP's question, he is equating 'proper' bilingualism with being able to pass yourself off as a native rather than 'just' being fluent which I take as being able to understand and express yourself in any given situation with ease, not necessarily being grammatically perfect. I suppose in my experience, fluency is difficult to achieve but possible with considerable effort, but 'proper' bilingualism is a whole different level of difficult. For me, this includes a full understanding of all the slang, cultural references, humour and all those other nuances, and the ability to manipulate them. Note that I don't think the presence of an accent means you are not bilingual; I'm sure my random mix of Forest of Dean / Welsh / Bristol accent confuses English speakers every now and again...but that doesn't mean I'm not a native English speaker!
Not that any of this really matters; whilst it's nice when people thought my language proficiency was good enough for me to maybe be French / Spanish, it's not essential. As long as I can understand what is being said and communicate with relative ease then that's good enough for me.
So many TV shows are imported and contrary to the bigger France for example means that it becomes to expensive tu dub the dialoges.
Yeah this is true. However Finns also get English language primetime TV and they are noticeably more 'foreign' sounding than the Swedes. But in that case it's to be expected because they're not using a Germanic language.
However - in work, at least, the French are a lot more natural sounding than the Germans too. This could be a result of shared heritage though.
Molgrips:
However Finns also get English language primetime TV and they are noticeably more ‘foreign’ sounding than the Swedes
One part of this is that teaching languages in 70's to early 90's in Finland was heavily based on learning grammar and vocabulary - talking exercises were of little concern. This has been changed a lot in recent years based on how my teen aged son is able to communicate.
Having studied three foreign languages I don't think I'd pass as native for longer than sentence or two. Also when most of foreign language discussions are with people who are not native speakers either the grammar you can get by without much concern to grammar or pronounciation.
I just think you are placing the bar ridiculously high, Alpha. What I know about New Zealand and it's culture could be written on the back of a Metro ticket but that doesn't mean I don't speak English any New Zealander would understand and call English.
I know a bit more about Quebec and converse perfectly with French Canadians (I went out with one for a while) despite differences in accent and vocabulary, I understand their language and they understand mine even if we spontaneously use different words for the same thing.
Slang: that's community based, I'm forever asking junior what the latest word from his techno-rave scene means. People use words on this forum I have to look up having left the UK 30 odd years ago, language evolves. Not knowing a few words used by a few people in a limited context doesn't mean you aren't bilingual.
Cultural references: I don't have clue about French theatre (apart from things on TV) or English Jazz but can engage in long conversations about de die neue Deutsche Welle.
Bilingual just means speaking two languages with ease, not having an encyclopedia in your head for each country that speaks the language. Having enough passive vocabulary to understand everything you hear and enough active vocabulary to express anything you want to say in a manner anyone can understand it.
