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Didn't say anything like that either 😉
why would any right minded person want to aspire to be middle class? Send your children to private school, live in a 5 bedroom detached house with a double garage, drive a totally impractible 4x4 to the private school if you must to prove how successfull/happy you are but why would you wish to be recognised as being "middle class"? You must be pretty insecure.
I don't want to get embroiled in an internet debate about class, fascinating as I really do find the subject.
I just want to say that I involuntarily shouted the C-word at George Osbourne when he came on the news this evening.
And I've never read the Morning Star in my life.
Class is much better defined by whether you own and/or control the means of production or you have nothing to sell but your labour power. Vague status-based (Weberian) definitions only serve to conceal the fact that you can just as easily be sacked and impoverished as the person who pushes the broom. I'm proudly working class, all my family have degrees and I own a detatched house with a double garage...but it's only stuff and it wouldn't gain you access to the Bullingdon Club.
Class is much better defined by whether you own and/or control the means of production or you have nothing to sell but your labour power.
Whilst your employment status is undoubtedly the most important defining characteristic of class, it is by no means the only one. Your level of education, whether you sell your intellectual skills or manual skills, your level of income, your property ownership status, all contribute the level of freedom and power (including economic power) which you enjoy. And therefore, are all defining characteristics of class.
[b][i]"I'm proudly working class"[/i][/b]
No one should be ashamed of whatever social class they find themselves in - I certainly am not (and applying the above criteria I am 100% working class) It is how we behave towards other human beings, which is the defining characteristic of what sort of person we are.
National debt is currently
£900,000,000,000
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Go figure where we need to start trimming back.
I was talking to a Customer Service Manager for a specific section of a certain Hospital not so long ago. Why does it need a CS Manager who also gets a company car?
I was born and brought up on a council estate. My dad was a miner (as I was for a while), my mam was a nurse. Now I'm a nurse, my wife's an OT. My older kids went to uni. I own my own house in a 'nice' area, I occasionally go to the theatre, even to the opera if it's something I like (no Wagner, thank you very much). However, I also still enjoy going to the rugby (league), and the occasional pint with my mates. Now, I always think of myself as working class, but realise that my current 'lifestyle' might say otherwise. Is there even such a thing as 'working class' anymore ?. Your's, confused of Barnsley.
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Where did you get that figure from?
Public sector employment went from 40% of the adult working total in 1997 to 60% today.
Do you actually believe that nonsense hora ?
And even if it was remotely true, it would just represent meaningless figures.
Because so what ? If it was 70,80,or 90 percent, what different would it make ?
You obviously apply the logic of a retard who reads the Sun, and automatically assumes that anyone employed in the pubic sector doesn't do any work. Do you think all the employees of the RBS stopped working when their bank became publicly owned ? It is the amount of people who are engaged in productive work which is important. And that applies as much to the private sector as it does to the public sector.
Go figure where we need to start trimming back.
So, even if your figures were true, how d'you propose creating employment for all those Public Sector workers who won't have jobs after these cuts are made?
If you worked in the public sector, and your job was on the line (meaning potential difficulty supporting your family, paying your mortgage etc), would you be so flippant?
[EDIT] Hora's not even close. Embarrassing. 🙄
I dont't understand class, or the caste system or any other such bollox. it just seems to be a way to have a massive chip on your shoulder, whichever clan you aspire to belong to. Be proud of who you are and don't give a **** what others think, why live you life trying to match or fight against others perceptions? That's their issue if they are sad tw@s who have to define themselves and others by a perceived social hierarchy. 🙄
It's hardly worth pointing out that 99% of this thread is completely ****ing irrelevant because "class war" has sod all to do with whippets and Waitrose, and more to do with who sells labour and who owns the means of production, and which group's interests the state serves.
But I did enjoy the bit where someone got called nouveau riche.
Think about it (even if it is a struggle).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_struggle ?
Knoabunny, I think it's more that 99% of the thread is relevant and the 1% that isn't is the title 😉
Although I haven't read much of this thread at all konabunny, I'm pretty sure that the OP was referring in social classes as generally defined by sociologists, anthropologists, political economists, and social historians, and in the context of the British class system. Not, as defined by Marx in his theory of the historical nature of the class struggle. I'm fairly certain that Marx never talked about "class war".
I'm pretty sure that the OP was referring in social classes as generally defined by sociologists, anthropologists, political economists, and social historians, and in the context of the British class system.
Actually I just nicked the title of the article from the Independent. 😉
I'm seriously considering voting for the lib dems. Is there any "smack you in the face" reason I shouldn't? Have I missed something?
Edit; I may be better off voting tory just to get rid because I really want rid of liebor?
So, ernie/fred/talkemada: you didn't read the thread or the original article but you still think blah blah blah? Well...RTFA, then! It's all about how the state structures tax and whether it favours the rich or whether it benefits the poor.
The Institute of Fiscal Studies just published a long-term study of how Labour's tax changes have affected different classes, compared to the last Tory government. It found that the richest 10 per cent have seen their incomes cut by 9 per cent, to pay for an increase in the incomes of the poorest 10 per cent. A rich man has lost on average £25,000 a year; a poor woman has gained on average £1,700 a year. I have seen these changes among my own family and friends: gaining £1,700 is the difference between struggling to pay the bills, or being able to give your kids a summer holiday.
chakaping - MemberI don't want to get embroiled in an internet debate about class, fascinating as I really do find the subject.
I just want to say that I involuntarily shouted the C-word at George Osbourne when he came on the news this evening.
And I've never read the Morning Star in my life.
I normally just mouth "Oik" with a slight smirk on my face...
I'm seriously considering voting for the lib dems. Is there any "smack you in the face" reason I shouldn't? Have I missed something?
Depends on your constituency and what you want to happen.
If you're in a safe seat, it probably doesn't matter which way you vote.
If you're in a Lab/Con contested seat, voting Lib Dem might not achieve anything.
If you're in a Lab/Lib contested seat, voting Lib Dem is the better way to get rid of Labour.
But if you get rid of Labour and the Lib Dems won't be a moderating force on either as a coalition partner, you could end up with an untrammelled Tory govt. Not a good idea imo but you and others may differ. 😕
For me:
- single rate of tax - say 25-33% (the rate is pretty irrelevent)
- NI at 10% with 5% straight into an individual money purchase pension and 5% into the NHS
- a tax code set at the minimum level deemed enough for a single person to live on - £10k? - and benefit to get to that level if not earnt
- child benefit covering the (additional) cost of a child - £30pw
- VAT at 15%
- benefits at a level that covers people, but not at a level I'd want to live at
- reduce housing benefit, to 50% of current, and have rent restrictions
And all administered by the same dept/systems.
What is wrong at the moment (and this has been highlighted by the Tory married tax issue), is that a couple with one earner on £20k is paying over £2500pa in tax - and probably getting the same (at least) back in benefits/credits etc.
So, ernie/fred/talkemada: you didn't read the thread or the original article but you still think blah blah blah?
Did I read it ? ......did I f*ck ! I took one look at it and concluded that it would probably be rather tedious and pointless to read. I've restricted my comments to responses to posts such as hora'a halfwit comment about public sector employment. Like you, I haven't noticed anyone using Marx's definition of class nor arguing in context of it's historical role. But I'm not sure why you only want to talk about class in the Marxist sense. Does Hari even mention Marx ?
BTW, RE : [i]"ernie/fred/talkemada"[/i]
You always catch me out mate ! I never seem to be able to pull the wool over your eyes, you razor sharp man you.
But you wait and see ..... I will one day.
Does Hari even mention Marx ?
Does he mention whippets, claret, supper v dinner and other social class shibboleths?
(Private Eye does a good line in tracking Hari's fantasist tendencies).
is it right that anyone should aquire power and influence by virtue of their birth and not through there own merit?
is it right that anyone should aquire power and influence by virtue of their birth and not through there own merit?
No, its not right, but you'll have to look at the history and the immediate future of this country to get a complete answer. Acquiring power by virtue of birth doesn't only apply to the "upper classes" either.
Class is like the clap, you've either got it or not.
Interesting thread, I have just read the whole thing and it does appear there is alot of stuff being said.
I really don;t have much to say however the two things which need changing the most are:
Benefits
It was recently brought to my attention the huge amount of benefits which are avaliale to people. For example a woman where I work would be a lot better off not working, and taking the benefits. This is just stupid! and totally wrong!
Public Spending
The massive waste of public money which is just spent on rubbish and wasted, or not spent correctly. This does annoy me.
Benefits
It was recently brought to my attention the huge amount of benefits which are avaliale to people. For example a woman where I work would be a lot better off not working, and taking the benefits. This is just stupid! and totally wrong!
The benefit system is compensating for the fact that a decent wage is not paid in a country with a high cost of living. Sort this out and all taxpayers benefit, so to speak.
Public Spending
The massive waste of public money which is just spent on rubbish and wasted, or not spent correctly. This does annoy me.
I hope you are not in the "cut public spending and they'll spend it wisely" brigade. There is wastage, but this can be sorted out through proper accountability first.
When the Tories are in power, they slowly try to creep us back to the age when workers were nothing more than indentured slaves and the rich got insanely richer and built large country estates on the spilt blood of slavery overseas and exploitation of workers at home. The next time you wander around a National Trust property, just think about where the money came from to build the place!
When Labour's in power, they tip the balance back towards social justice and benefits for the less well-off.
I went to a Lead Mining Museum once and was shocked at the squalid conditions and exploitation endured by the workers. The unions and Labour have improved the standard of living for working class and lower middle class people over the last 100 years.
What are 'unions'? They are 'clubs' formed by ordinary working people to help improve working conditions and protect against exploitation. They aren't some clandestine organisation pulling the strings of their Labour puppets! They all have democratically elected leadership and the 'levy' they pay to Labour is by the individual choice of each union member. When you join a union, you can choose NOT to fund the Labour party! Thatcher cleaned up the unions in the 80s, it was about the only useful thing she did.
The Tories are funded by rich individuals with their own agenda (to get even richer, that's their agenda!).
I lived my early adult life under the Tories in the 1980s and 1990s. It was sh1t! Recession, cuts, boom and bust, no minimum wage, unfair taxes that only benefited the well-off, no proper training (YTS) to name a few 'benefits'.
They say under the Labour govt the gap between rich and poor has got wider. That may be so but we've ALL got better off financially! We've all moved UP! Under the Tories the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, it ALWAYS happens!
Vote for social justice on May 6th, don't listen to them calling out to the 'great ignored', it ain't YOU they're calling out to, it ain't the poor, the working class, the middle class, these people haven't been ignored over the last 13 years, the Tories are referring to the 'great ignored well-off people' who Labour decided were doing all right and didn't need tax credits, vouchers, benefits and the like. Don't be hoodwinked!
Rant not quite over...
IF YOU FORGET THE TORY PAST, YOU DESERVE THE TORY FUTURE!
How suprised was I to see ernie had posted on such a thread?
I think we need to be told wrightyson. How surprised were you ? Very surprised, or not surprised at all ? Or maybe a [i]little bit[/i] surprised but then again, not really [i]that[/i] surprised ?
I'm going on a bike ride in about an hours' time, so if you get a chance to give me the answer before that, I will be very grateful. Otherwise I can see it's going to be playing on my mind during the ride.
Did you make the top 100 comedians in the other post? Must have surely? 😉
life is like a shit sandwich . The more bread you have the less shit you can taste.
Now wheres that toothpaste 🙂