[Closed] Ian Watkins. Sickening.

The question is was he like this before his time with Fearne Cotton, or did that experience 'turn him' ?

Thankfully as a society we seem to have moved on from this sort of barbarism

|The Norwegian response to Anders Breivik is instructive in this regard, I think.

Look forward to getting back to discussing bikes, cars and other stuff that I would far rather read about on this site than this.

You might be better off not posting on threads you don't like then?

All you did was put it to the top of the page and get more people to notice it

is it too simple an answer to use chemical castration for paedophiles? i dont think you could stop anyone 'fancying' or lusting after kids by locking them up to be released later, if thats what theyre wired up like. but would cc remove that lust and the need to satisfy urges?

dunno meself, just a thought......

Sadex - It depends on their motivation I think, in some cases where chemical (or physical) castration has been carried out on serial rapists it didn't stop them because it was more of a power-thing than a sex/lust-thing.

Having said that, the use of hormones to reduce/remove libido in sex offenders isn't unheard of, not sure of the success rate though.

These things seem to be so complex and individual that there is rarely any single solution.

I read about a case where they were having problems with the local police force 'fraternizing' with the local women.

They solved it by getting all the policemen to watch a film of women in various states of undress and giving them an electric shock on the gonads every time they got an erection.

As there was so many policemen though they had to apply the shocks somewhat indiscriminately and the crude treatment meant they ended up with a 'gay' police force where the policemen were now walking round on the beat hand-in-hand.

On 2nd thoughts it might have in a Tom Sharpe novel...

There are many sick and dying people in this country desperately in need of organ transplants, be it liver,heart or whatever.
Here you have 3 people the state will have to provide accommodation,food,medical health for.
Just give their organs to the sick.
Then at least their pathetic lives will be worth something.

Meanwhile, we are told that over in Syria, elements from both sides of the conflict have snipers deliberately targeting children and also subjecting children to torture.

Of course it makes it absolutely no more right, but they don't do it for personal gratification.

Peaedophiles are fundamentally wired up wrong
But what about the two women accused with him, allowing abuse of their children ?

Paedophiles are wired up wrong.

Its not hard to see , repellnt as it is , why a paedo would have their own kids

SHUDDERS

he would never see the light of day if it were my decision as we need to protect kids from his likes and he , clearly, cannot control his urges.

I see that as something completely different, just like the Nazis and the extermination of Jews - they see them as the enemy and therefore they have to be destroyed.

Of course it makes it absolutely no more right, but they don't do it for personal gratification.

I bet they do. It's the same people who abuse others (or would like to) in 'normal' society, they're just given the official approval to do it in the name of the cause.

the [s]people[/s] children they were ordered to kill.

Mr Woppit - Member
the people children they were ordered to kill.

Life without parole in solitary

because they were ordered to destroy the enemy and lines must become blurred between what is fundamentally right and wrong, acceptable and unacceptable

My understanding is that this is quite a widely recognised type of group psychology, it happens in conflicts (small and large scale) all over the world, has done for millenia and probably will do indefinitely. Interestingly the ability to overcome ones own morals when in a group situation (such as the violence of war) is far easier and quicker for men than women.

I think you're right though, this is very different to the acts perpetrated without group involvement of the size required to maintain those levels of behaviour for a significant period. I.e. crimes in peace time such as this.

I am struggling to articulate this is the correct way and I am not saying for one second that none of this would have happened he not been in very successful band but..

Should record companies in general have a greater duty of care over their signed acts?

To promote a band to success as well as being fully aware of the perceived 'rock and roll lifestyle' a lot of bands naively seem obliged to follow I cannot shake the thought that they need to have a greater influence over the band to try and steer them away from what seems to be an inevitable implosion.

I am struggling to articulate this is the correct way and I am not saying for one second that none of this would have happened he not been in very successful band but..

Should record companies in general have a greater duty of care over their signed acts?

To promote a band to success as well as being fully aware of the perceived 'rock and roll lifestyle' a lot of bands naively seem obliged to follow I cannot shake the thought that they need to have a greater influence over the band to try and steer them away from what seems to be an inevitable implosion.

iolo - Member
There are many sick and dying people in this country desperately in need of organ transplants, be it liver,heart or whatever.
Here you have 3 people the state will have to provide accommodation,food,medical health for.
Just give their organs to the sick.
Then at least their pathetic lives will be worth something.

What's your solution? Kill them? Turf them onto the streets without any support (so no cost)? What next - do the same for any criminal?

It doesn't really matter how long he goes in for, with an offence like that, I will be surprised if he makes it out alive!

I really wish I'd turned the radio off when they issued the warning about the contents of the report - and these were the details they were allowed to broadcast. I'd go so far as to say a little piece of my faith in humanity died when I heard this.

Why can't we enact some kind of law where we can decide that a person has committed acts so vile and inhuman that we can strip them of their status as a human, or indeed an animal. We would then not be in violation of human rights law or even animal rights law if we chose to inflict some kind of physical penalty?

I am aware that my two paragraphs above are laughably confused when put alongside each other - this reflects my utter despondancy on this issue.

Should record companies in general have a greater duty of care over their signed acts?

I very much doubt they condoned this if for no other reason that it harmed record sales and hit them in the wallet.

I doubt he would have told them if they asked nicely either.
its not like the band knew what was going on is it.
I am not really sure what you expect them to do tbh and I doubt his behaviour has anything to do with music, Rock n Roll or anything else related to the industry he tried to rape a baby FFS that is just sick.

+1 what rebel12 said.

I'm a father of two young girls and, repulsive as he is, I wouldn't want to see him tortured or killed by some kind of institutionalised vengeance, because that isn't the kind of world I want them growing up in.

But likewise I have no idea what the "correct" solution is.

No doubt many of you will think this unaskable, but why do folk (such as dannyh, iolo etc) get so strongly upset about paedophile crimes?

Of course they are horrific, but are they the seeming order of magnitude worse than murder, rape, serial crimes, genocide etc to warrant the strength of the reaction? Is it because you have kids and you imagine them as victims?

No doubt many of you will think this unaskable, but why do folk (such as dannyh, iolo etc) get so strongly upset about paedophile crimes?

I've often wondered the same thing, but suspect we're wired in a way which means protection of our children trumps everything, therefore any crime against a child touches that nerve.

Of course, children are especially vulnerable too, but surely no more so than other victims of sexual abuse?

My facebook feed is often filled with "burn him alive" etc at the mention of any crime against any child on earth, however genocide seems to go relatively unnoticed.

Presumably the parents feel that "dear god what if that was my child", whereas there's less of a connection with other strangers.

I think it is simply because, as children, our brains are wired to be protective over them - it's the parenting instinct that is built into each and every one of us. I am sure the switch is, well, switched after we become parents ourselves though so the crime seems even more appalling.

Because it goes against fundamental decency?

And how do you know I don't feel the same about genocide?

I don't really care much for the fate of Watkins - but I do hope the victims in this can move on with their lives, and at least some of them are *too young* to remember any of it.

I just hope it doesn't come back to haunt them in future years.

Its partly having kids as i think this does galvanise you - we all think what we would do if someone did it to our kids- we would pretty much all kill them slowly with a blunt instrument and some pliers even the bleeding heart liberal bed wetters.

Personally i think some crimes are crimes like say theft or fraud or assault - its unlikley but I may do these at some point in my life and I can see why folk might.

Some actions are just a crime against humanity and make you no longer a human - I am not going all Nazi and sub human here just trying to articulate intelligently for al- and I can never ever see me doing them at all. It is impossible to empathise tbh with these actions.

It gets an emotive reaction basically boirne out of our genetic need to protect our vulnerable kids from harm
Clearly he is the monster here and we kill them dont we

I am trying to explain, this is not fully my view, but, it is not that far off

I personally feel it is a combination of it being the ultimate abuse of power, and other than murder, I cannot think of a crime which is more damaging to its victim than child abuse.

I'm also a father of 2 young girls, and also totally opposed to the death penalty.
I feel it is little more than medieval, state sponsored retribution, and has no place in the modern world. (as proven so well by the countries who still use it)

I think he needs to go away for life with no chance of parole - he isn't worth trying to rehabilitate, and surely he needs some sort of punishment?
A bit of manual labor would be healthy addition - nothing to harsh, but 10 hours a day doing something utterly meaningless would be good for him.

freeagent - Member
I cannot think of a crime which is more damaging to its victim than child abuse.

Yup, that's where abusers come from.

I think it is simply because, as children, our brains are wired to be protective over them - it's the parenting instinct that is built into each and every one of us. I am sure the switch is, well, switched after we become parents ourselves though so the crime seems even more appalling.

I think it's this too. I don't remember being more bothered by bad things happening to kids than to adults before I became a parent, but I definitely find myself more upset since.

Father of 3 here and I too don't want a return to the death penalty. This guy is clearly wired up very wrong and should never see the light of day again. However as others have said, abusers are often the victims of previous abuse. Whilst he is in custody there is a valuable opportunity for study and research to see if the circle can be broken.

Is it because you have kids and you imagine them as victims

Undoubtedly yes.

When I became a father a few years ago my outlook noticeably changed.

Sentimental stories about children, that I would previously have shrugged off as schmaltz, now bring lump to my throat.

And stories of nasty things happening to children, where previously I would have tutted and wondered about the world, can now make me openly cry (in a very manly way obviously) and haunt me for days.

10 hours a day doing something utterly meaningless would be good for him.

A job in IT?

What a wrong, wrong, wrong 'un.

A big well done to the police for catching him.

I have no children of my own but have nieces and nephews.
Should someone carry out such henious crimes with them I would be in jail for murder. There is no doubt about that.

From historical accounts I have read of the wars and of those involved in the running of Concentration Camps, a great many were desperately ashamed of their actions when the cold light of realisation came over them when they were no longer under the orders of superiors. Many times I have read how soldiers have said that in another life they could have been best of friends with the people they were ordered to kill.

I doubt torturers were just doing a 9:00 - 5:00 in the third reich either. Guards and other parts of the machine, sure, but nor the main perpetrators.

Sentimental stories about children, that I would previously have shrugged off as schmaltz, now bring lump to my throat.

And stories of nasty things happening to children, where previously I would have tutted and wondered about the world, can now make me openly cry (in a very manly way obviously) and haunt me for days.

Now, nearly 20 years on and two kids later I am not far off the same as her - getting emotional watching Children In Need etc...

iolo - Member
I have no children of my own but have nieces and nephews.
Should someone carry out such henious crimes with them I would be in jail for murder. There is no doubt about that.

Is this a good way to be?

I was responding more to torturing children (and snipers targeting them) in Syria.

I am sure many of those people torturing and sniping children in Syria (or any of the genocides in Africa where children have been tortured and raped) will look back one day and realise what they did was wrong. I doubt the same would ever be said of Ian Watkins.

some pliers even the bleeding heart liberal bed wetters.

Are you familiar with the Norwegian situation? Given the way they responded to the Anders Breivik massacare of Socialist Party member teenagers, I daresay you might describe the entire nation in such a pejorative way.

I remember the news at the time reported the party members involved and the young party (Socialists) members left alive, as collectively approving the statement: "We will not deal with this by punishing, we will deal with it with our love" (I paraphrase).

Interestingly, the prison system to which Breivik was sent, has a regime which we might see as more akin to a well-appointed holiday camp with educational programmes attached.

There doesn't seem to be, apart from the withdrawal of free movement in society, any "punishment" involved.

This approach to emprisonment has resulted in a nation with one of the lowest, if not THE lowest, rates of re-offending on the planet.

Go, as they say, figure...

a great many people did a great many things they are now thoroughly ashamed of when at the time they were following orders (or through the orders being given, allowing lines to be blurred more than they should).

Is this a good way to be?

Depends al I suspect tribally it had some advantages as we killed the "weird" one sin our tribe to protect our genes/kins
it may have little use these days but what ar eyou suggesting?
To be clear I am not saying I would do it [ kill someoen who did that to my kids] but i would certainly feel it and every day for the rest of my life.

Breivik

Any ideas what they do with paedophiles - I know they do chemical castration and we dont - rubbish internet connection cannot google
I do agree that generally we have not decided whether our prisons should punish or treat and we therefore do both badly. I also think education/reform/help, which is what Norway generally does, is the best way to reduce recidivism.

FWIW they also have maximum security prisons like we do and Brevik is held in one of them iirc

So, not an approach you would describe as from "bleeding heart liberal bed-wetters", then?

Is paedophilia a "curable" condition and should we seek to cure rather than punish, do you think?

Junkyard
it may have little use these days but what ar eyou suggesting?

Not suggesting anything other than questioning why some folk seem to think it's right/a good thing to have these unbridled hysterical reactions to this crime. It seems to make it OK to say they should be killed etc, but avoids analysing the cyclic nature of the crime (abused becoming abusers) and any attempt to prevent it (although capital punishment would of course stop the cycle 🙁 ).

I think you may need to switch on your irony filter if you thought that was a serious point.

Can it be cured ? clearly NO or we would not have any repeat offenders and recidivism would be 0%. It is not so no we cannot cure it.

Do you mean can it be treated? If then the answer is , to some degree yes but not 100% successfully. The best we can do is reduce the % of those released who re offend.
That still leaves many folk to become future victims and we need to look at whether we, as a society, are prepared to take that risk.

Good points al but i think it is just the horrific nature of the crimes and the likely hood they will reoffend if they get the opportunity.
I am , to some degree, articulating things that are not fully my own view. I would not murder but I may well never ever even think about releasing folk.
Its hard our job is to protect our kids and we would hav faile dif that happened and changes are our kids would never recover and their lives will be ruined. You are going to get an emotional response form many when this happens even me [ god* forbid].

* I dont mean that bit either Woppit.

This fella seems like one of that category tbh as do the Wests, Brady etc.