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so can someone explain this :
you can have 2 pedigree dogs(male and female) both mated but yet have no papers (.....adults not kennel CLUB registered (NOT SURE) but pedigree dogs..producing pedigree pups... yet the breeder says she sent papers to our adress...????? CONFUSED...
here is the story...breeder advertises pedigree/kc pups on 'pets for homes' website.... we collect pup he is barely 6 weeks old, then breeder says she will forward the papers on to us.... we collected the pup on boxing day....still no papers arrived..we,ve rang up numerous occasions for the said papers and she keeps saying she sent them . still no joy.... i got intouch with the kennel club today in london and there was no registration done at all for these pups. (cocker spaniel... everytime we ring we ask for the breeders full name and she gives a false first name most times........ we put her mobile number into google and adverts come up on the 'pets for homes' website and she has produced at least 12 diferent adverts with 12 different dogs for sale.... (puppy farm) is ringing a bell with me now.. its my daughters puppy and she paid 300 quid for this pup....still recieved no paperwork for it... QUESTION :::::if its a pedigree dog but not kennel club registered, where does the breeder get the papers from to send to us....dont the pups have to be registerd somewhere so the breeder can send the papers to us ?????
we found her real name on the other dog advert where she calls herself Margret, yet on the phone to us one day she said she was called Tracey ! i have made a few phones calls to certain authoritys , as we believe these puppys arent being treated in the correct manner.... the puppy my daughter bought....was riddled with worms its stomach ballooned hugley a few days after we bought him so the vets wormed him.... then a few days later the pup came out in bites : numerous visits to the vets and skin scrapings done ( the pup has demodex mites....really badley..spot on treatment from the vets isnt working not as yet we can apply the treatment just once every 2 weeks.. we have 3 tubes of this treatment....the poor pup has lost a huge amount of fur around his eyes and is covered in bald patches on his body....he looks a mess..... we have confronted the owner about this : she just says both parents of the pup had beautiful coats (she wud say this)....mothers of pups pass these complaints down to the pups and in most cases doesnt catch on like this one has for our pup...normally you can kill fleas but this is a mite and extremely hard to get rid off...the vets says its going top be a lengthy case..dog is insured.. sorry if i have duplicated this in a similar thread but its soo annoying cos your meant to enjoy your new pup, not be plagued with health issues and arguments with the breeder trying to twist her stories by saying the pup was advertised as pedigree dog only and not kennel club which she had stated before... obviously the advert is no longer on the website so our word aginst hers...hubby had a ding dong with her on the fone tonite insisting we would like the papers for a 300 pound puppy .... no joy...... like i say we are informing certain authoritys on her as she is constantly lying to us... 😥
sounds a right mess
£300 seems low for a pedigree pup - that would ring alarm bells with me
isnt 6 weeks very early to let a pup go - a friend who breeds dogs would not let them go that young
well there were other adverts advertised as kennel club registered for 350 quid depending on the area you bought them from.... its a complete mess... daily this situation has taken over our lives....spent most of pups days at vets and telephone calls..jeepers i darent even open the next bill... lol....
a bit nasty this, but as far as I'm aware the puppy should have been fit for purpose if she's a dealer, same as anything else you buy. threaten to take it back with the vet bills or see her in small claims court if the papers/ a mutual agreement has been arranged
First call would be to RSPCA to report the breeder for clearly not taking care of the dogs, then small claims court for your £300. If the et considers the pup to have serious genetic issues beyond those caused by neglect or if it's development is going to have been seriously impaired due to its start in life and probably being taken from its mother too early, well the. You've got some tough decisions to make. Probably get the dog neutered as a minimum.
Sorry to hear about you troubles. About £350/400 is right for a cocker. We have quite a few friends who have cockers and it seems that's the going rate for a working cocker.
Have you tried the RSPCA, if she is dodgy they may know of her if they don't you should report her it could help your situation if she is convicted.
I hope the pup gets healthy, it sounds like it came away far too young and it wasn't best looked after whilst it was with her anyway.
I can understand why you want the papers but unless you're going to stud/hunt/show the dog they don't really matter but for £350 you should be entitled to them.
Good luck and the pup get better soon.
Take her to the SCC for the vets fees as well.
so much in one post.
first sorry to hear you are having such a rough time with the puppy, hope the vet can get him fixed up and back on track, I assume the dog is for a pet so give up on any idea of getting the KC registration papers and enjoy your dog. If you really cant let it lie, then SCC for the money you think you are out of pocket
please report the breeder to the rspca, they will send someone round to see whats going on.
dont pick a dog from an advert on the internet.
dont buy a dog without seeing (ideally both) parents and their living environment, where the puppies were born
dont take a puppy away from its mother after 6 weeks - IMO 10-12 weeks this is for all sorts of reasons.
most good/reputable breeders will have all the puppies sold before they are born and there is an associated price tag.
dont be fobbed off by bad breeders, dont think its all ok because its expensive, if something isnt right, walk away.
if dog breeding was properly regulated perhaps the rescues wouldnt be overflowing and 'dangerous dogs' wouldnt be in the press so often
About £350/400 is right for a cocker. We have quite a few friends who have cockers and it seems that's the going rate for a working cocker
Errrrrr, not for a good working dog
Pedigree dog with close relatives being FTW or FTCH will easily fetch £600. I suspect this is a show dog that's been advertised as working to help the sale or a stolen pup ..... This is more likely.
Breeder needs reporting to the RSPCA for letting it go so young and alarm bells should have started ringing loudly when you found out she was willing to let pups go that early. Did you see the mum, if not why not?
dont take a puppy away from its mother after 6 weeks - IMO 10-12 weeks this is for all sorts of reasons.
Mums don't have anything to do with pups after about 5 weeks so 12 weeks is too long, 8-9 is normal. The more I read this the more I suspect it was stolen (pups get protection from worms etc from mums milk and this little chap may have been deprived of this).
Hope I'm wrong. Either way, look after him, he'll get better and you can put this behind you.
yep we saw the mum but not the dad....she brought out 2 pups to show us from behind a big closed door,,,, obvioulsy the mum was loking alittle tired and to be honest quite under weight i guess thats with feeding the pups... but yeah letting the dogs go so young was abit alarming to me... at the end of the day it was my daughters choice to take the dog... i did try to talk to her in the car b4 hand not to rush but when she saw the pup ( you know what its like you fall in love with puppys.. lol... so yeah the next stage is defo the R.S.P.C A ...... and will ask them to check if she actually has a licence to breed all these different dogs...then small claims court if it comes to that...
Sadly this is a common occurrence. The other common one is getting Dog Lovers Registration papers instead of KC papers.
For most people who just want a pet it makes very little difference other than perhaps a nagging feeling of having been done.
If however you want to show the dog then the small claims court could be an answer but check the wording of the advert. Unless it states Kennel Club papers then they can fob you off with any other bumf.
What is also typical is a poorly puppy from a puppy farm which needs lots of treatment shortly after being rehomed. Usually most of them do go on to be just fine once you correct the poor start they had.
Do report them to RSPCA and also to local council.
Hope the little cocker picks up soon!
If the parents are NOT kennel club registered, the pups can NOT be kennel club registered. However, you can have a pedigree dog that is not KC registered, so long as you can prove a three generation history for both mother and father. The Kennel Club is just in place as an official register of this family history. So as far as a pedigree pup, well it could be, as far as a KC registered pup, not if the parents aren't. Hindsight is great, but this type of paperwork should always be made available when buying a pup and any prospective owner has a right to, and always should, request to view these documents.
Riddled with worms is not uncommon. It is actually the mother that passes the worms to the pups. These will be 'roundworms' and any worming treatment will sort them out with no issue. All young pups, no matter how well they are bred, will be susceptible to this.
Demodex though = one very stressed pup. These mites are found in very small numbers on every single normal animal (and human!). But, if an animal is stressed, especially a young animal, the immune system that normally keeps numbers in check is downgraded and allows numbers to multiply to levels where you get itchy, scaley bald patches. It's no bad resemblance on you guys, but can be seen when pups have had a pretty stressful upbringing. The leaving at below 6wks probably didnt help (should normally be 8wks so they are old enough to cope properly without mum, but young enough to quickly adapt to new surrounds). As far as treatment goes, presuming you are currently using advocate spot on? Warning - it doesn't work to TREAT the demodex, merely keeps it in check. Proper treatment is a harsh shampoo called Aludex, only available from vets and can only be used from 12wks age. Keep up Advocate to bide your time, then if not resolving at 12wks ask for this shampoo and follow instructions on bottle label VERY carefully. Once treated properly and thoroughly (shampoo takes 4weeks) then hopefully won't recur and dog should have no lasting after effects if kept in a settled environment.
Demodex and worms are unfortunate, probably won't get reimbursed from breeder for the vets bills incurred by this though, as liability is impossible to prove. I have yet to hear of a successful case. However, a claim for being mis-sold pup as KC registered? You may stand a chance, but could come back that you didnt request to see proof of paperwork before purchase - sorry 🙁
But main thing here, at least it sounds like the pup is going to have a good home 🙂
I think the pup was probably lucky to get out of there at 6 weeks.
Good luck.
Animal welfare issues aside this sounds like an issue for trading standards.
yeah the vets wont give us a stronger shampoo yet cos its too toxic for the pup ( they say)..... tho he was born in november so im guessing a few more weeks of vet prescribed spot on treatment then the Aludex shampoo (will this clear the mite infection up) ?
and months down the line i really do hope his fur will grow back ?
have already been in touch with trading standards and for now they say to write a letter to the breeder initially stating that we require the 'papers' and partial refund of the pup as the breeder has breeched her contract and tell her there is a deadline of 7 days from us writing the letter......then if nothing happens after that then we have to ring trading standards back and stage two of this they will tell us wot to do next.... but after hubbys outburst on the phone last night to the breeder i guess we wont be compensated at all (lol).... i cant believe how much this situation has completely dominated out lives in the past few months. wot alot of stress and anxiety....phew..anyway the R.S.P.C A. is being notified of it today and the council already know about it...my hubby spoke to someone yesterday who is totaly against puppy farming ..so hopefully we mite get on the right tracks.....but i doubt we wont get any money back..... we just want the pup to get well agin as it has a lovely home here.... after 2 lots of 'spot on' treatment it just isnt working and 2 lots of 'antibiotics'...the pup just keeps getting fresh bites all over him.... im hoping with time as he gets older he may get better.... but his immune system will be crap at the moment...bahumbug.... 😥
Blimey, buying dogs can be a bit of a gamble!!
Some great advice from STW as usual.
When we were looking to get a dog I nearly ended up scrapping with some pikey who came round our house with a dog. We'd applied to the advert and they came round and insisted I pay for the dog there and then.
All seemed really dodgy, so I told him to go and we'd think about it, he didn't like that and [i]threw[/i] the dog back into his truck. We were nose-to-nose in the street with my lad crying on the driveway. He said he was going to wait until my wife came back to get his petrol money.
I went in and phoned my brother, who immediately came round with the heavies! Luckily, the bloke had gone when they arrived!
I'd kind of erased this from my memory until your tale of dubious dealings reminded me.
oh my god it just gets worse.....just had a phone call from hubby and the enviromental people 'know of this breeder woman' and she has dogy dealings in the past....they told us people have taken thier pups back to the breeder cos they are viscious !!!!
now the pup we have is biting all the time and bites the back of your legs...i just thort it was a 'teething' thing but he does bite alot for a puppy.... apparently we have been told by the enviromental health the dogs are bread with a guard dog so unfortunately our pup isnt pedigree...ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH wot do we do now ???? the rspca arent going just yet as the enviromental health are going to see her agin in a few days to have a sniff around the place c wots going on then they will get back to us in a few days....
oh my god i cant tell you how my blood is boiling now ...jesus christ ....
why the hell havent the enviromental people closed her down ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? for gods sake ....arrgggggggggggggggggggggggghhh
Biggest questions you now face (aside from the financial ones) are;
1) do you want to keep the dog knowing it's potential history.
2) can you convince your daughter to part with it.
3) where do you take it if you do want rid (back to the woman (if she'll have it and give a refund, rspca, dogs trust?
Clearly she's in breach of contract but it seems she may be a regular so will know how far she can go before giving a refund (if she will at all) even as far as court action.
Finally, you have my sympathy, fwiw.
Very sorry to hear about your troubles. I'm sure with hindsight you can now see all the warning signs, the adverts, the low price, the lack of papers. This has been and will continue to be a tough lesson.
So what do you do now ?
The harsh reality is the dog isn't what you expected or wanted. Independent of whether you try and get money back are you really going to return the dog to the women ? You have two choices, return it or place it for "adoption" or give the dog a good home yourselves.
FWIW we got our Labrador from a breeder we met at Crufts, well respected and she doesn't advertise and she chooses the owners she will sell puppies to.
UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE AGAIN......
... hmmmmm it gets more confusing...... afew weeks ago i have her recorded on my fone saying she had sent the papers the day b4 we foned her....
just now i got post at 11am through the post (posted 21 feb at 3pm)we have recieved a card form called : Sherleys pedigree form. it opens up to list parents and grandparents great grandparents.... tho nothing is filled in where its says kennel club number date of registration and kennel club stud number...
listed are all the dams and sires with osh names ( who knows if this is legit ????? yesterday we found her to be advertising through various names she calls herself...
the only thing we know from this form is the sires name and adress but not full adress it just gives a name and from Barnsley....
she prob has alot of these forms and fills in wotever she wants.... would you trust this form ?????? i dont know probably not....where are these dogs registerd if at all....
on the back of this form there is www.sherleys.com, www,beaphar.com where you can purchase 10 of these forms for 2 pounds....its says pedigree form inside but nowhere does it give a phome number for birth registration details to be checked out.....
Please don't panic about your puppy biting all the time, puppies do bite and a history of vicious dogs does not mean this one automatically will be. A dogs natural temperament is important but coming from a puppy farm/bad breeder doesn't guarantee this puppy will grow up to be a vicious dog. In a nice family environment it could grow in to the lovely dog you wanted.
This is a really sad and very common story, not being able to see the mum with her pups in her bed in a nice clean place is a bit of a tell tale that something is not right. I'm sorry to hear your experience of puppy buying is not a happy one. Often these pups do come with health problems but these can often be fixed with the right care, keep seeing your vet and I'm sure this pup will get there.
As for not being KC registered and possibly not even being the breed you want (many people end up with some breed of spaniel that may not be the breed they thought they were getting), only you and your daughter can decide if it's what you want.
Yes Aludex is not a nice shampoo, but is the only thing that will work to treat the infection. The spot on just will not work, but may precent thigs fetting worse. Aludex kills all the mites when used once weekly for 4 weeks and I have never known it to fail when used properly. Like I said just follow all instructions on the label of the bottle very carefully and problem solved in a month. The fur will always grow back, it has only fallen out through irritation and is not proper alopecia.
All pups bite and in all pups it should be discouraged! If he bites your ankles, stop moving and do not respond. Do not push the dog off or continue walking. Not reacting means it will become bored of this action and it will stop given a few weeks. If it bites your hands, a firm "NO" and pop a toy it can chew into its mouth instead and then praise the dog for taking the toy. As pups teeth they need to chew and bite, just like a baby. You just have to teach the pup to direct this chewing action at objects it is allowed to chew I.e. not your hands but it's toys.
Don't worry about aggression traits as yet. Proper training from this young age will usually see you right. Unless you have a dog that is completely off the cuff, then it is nurture not nature that brings out the vicious side.
And to be fair, I think I would be beyond worrying about paperworks and just concentrate on getting the pup happy and healthy!
This really is a horrible situation for you all.
KC reg doesn't mean much to me. As far as I'm concerned it's as much a means of collecting money rather than keeping a close eye on who's breeding what.
I had experience when we bought our first Boxer whereupon I visited the breeder off the back of a local add (despite having done loads of research nationwide) and fell in to the 'ah, look! A puppy' trap. The guy could have sold ice to the eskimos and we were suckered. We took the pup home, had her checked by a vet (whole other story) and then 7 months later she dropped down dead during a walk due to aortic stenosis. I went back to the breeder and was greeted with ...'So what!' I'm not proud of what I did then but lets say he remembered me each time he looked in the mirror for the next few weeks!
I then went down the lines of finding out as much as I could about them (after the horse has bolted) and found out they had been stopped from doing Boxer Rescue as they were breeding with rescue dogs and fabricating pedigrees! There was much more besides. I now have 3 Boxers and whenever we're out with them you can be sure someone will ask where I got them from. I can then tell them and ensure they avoid them. However I've been assured they've now given up!
It's a puppy minefield out there but the advice above is all very good. Unfortunately you are where you are now. The guard dog thing has me confused though? A spaniel guard dog?
I hope this all works out for you. When buying a dog it's research, research and research some more then after that do some more research and get recommendations!
crikey what a mess.
Always get in touch with an organisation who only deals with the breed you are after before getting a dog - be it for general advice on getting a dog or something specific about that breed or better still rescuing a dog.
We are going to have the same approach as mentioned above when we rehome the puppies off our Springer - we choose the owners and get a contract that if at any point they can no longer look after the dog then they contact us for first refusal. We only plan to have one litter from her and then spay her. We met the guy who's dog we want to use the other weekend - I won't go into any details but he is very well respected and has great dogs and is someone you can trust. We met him at a show and dropped him an email the other week. He immediately phoned us and we went down to see him and his dogs the next day and chose the boy that we want to try with.
We rescued our bitch so don't have any papers, the boy has a long working line but we are re just interested in getting the healthiest and best natured dogs we can get. We are not interested in proving good breeding and are only going to sell the pups to recover the costs and keep a bitch for ourselves. Our dogs breeding speaks for itself and we keep getting asked about pups. She is our pet and she means the world to us and so will her daughter we keep. Yes I plan to train the puppy properly to go shooting (I do scurries for fun with Lottie) but having a healthy, happy dog with good temperament is the most important thing to us.
[b]To the OP:[/b] going back to my earlier statement get in touch with a cocker spaniel organisation for advice on what to do to sort out your dog and they may also want to get stuck into making sure this breeder never breeds again. They may have also had dealings with some of her old dogs that have been given up.
thanks all for sound good advice as usual here on singletrack...it means alot to me that you peeps out there do care on such sensitive issues like this... 😉
see what happens in the next few weeks...but to be fair all i want is for this young pup to get well and hope he turns out to be aloving dog... i spent most of the day with him today... realy bonding with him now.... im sure my daughter wont give him up or try to send him back to the breeder.....'its not happening mum' she said today.... 'we are dog lovers and he,s staying with u....he will have a happy life with us....that i can guarante.. 😉
Lots of great advice as always.
Stick with the pup, the biting is normal. As above just ignore it and don't react when he does it and they usually stop pretty quickly. All puppys bite as it is how they play with their littermates.
Re Aludex, not nicest to use but pretty effective. here are other choices as well if it doesn't work but concentrate on getting the pup into good condition and that will boost it's own imuune system and help. Demodex is not contagious so should be able to take to puppy training classes when it's had all its vaccinations and that can help with training.
You can buy DNA testing kits online which claim to tell you if your dog is pure bred etc. Personally I wouldn't trust the results and lets face it you love the dog now, does it really matter if it is a pure bred (mongrels can be healthier 🙂 0