[Closed] I read this, and I thought of Drac....then got depressed.

Now there's a moral dilema........

Somebodies daughter or girlfreind , a scene seen all around the uk, and the paramedics and ambulance technicians have to sort it out by taking her to hospital, tieing up valuable resourses because the stupid woman had to much to drink.

Just imagine if your mother or father was having a heart attack and the only ambulance was taxiing a drunk to hospital, just cover the drunk with a blanket and phone a taxi for them, if a taxi wont take them to hospital why should an ambulance.

Need that in Leeds. I wont let drunk women into the RRV anymore after too many colleagues have had complaints/allegations against them, either from patients or unappreciative partners. Frankly, its a s**t time of year to be a paramedic.

I'm not so sure that Gucci is Drac's style though..
I saw a prog on these a couple of weeks ago, not a job I could do, respect to the dudes that do.

and she does not [b]appear[/b] to be wearing knickers

yea, yea... like they didn't have a good gawp and check!!!

Now there's a moral dilema........

What, reading a Grauniad article? 😕

The worst drunks I see invariably tend to be in the City/Canary Wharf, and are often well-paid types who just don't have any self-control. Loads of coked-up tossers about too, which can be well dodgy. I've seen more fights in pubs with trendy affluent young types in than any 'rough' East End Boozer.

No knickers though, in this weather. She cooduv caught her death. 😐

Now there's a moral dilema........

Nice.

Do folk today not have that built in homing device thing that started you on your way home as soon as it thought there was a high probability you might not make it if you had any more to drink?

Do folk today not have that built in homing device thing that started you on your way home as soon as it thought there was a high probability you might not make it if you had any more to drink?

Beerdar? Evidently not.

Drinking culture of this country is so pathetic and sad.

Yet another reason why paramedics (and other health professionals) should really be paid *way* more than they are.

FWIW I spent much of my 20's not knowing where I was or pretty much what my name was, luckily never needed assistance though and always weaved my way home somehow.

That is quite disturbing but I agree with this:

Do folk today not have that built in homing device thing that started you on your way home as soon as it thought there was a high probability you might not make it if you had any more to drink?

This is what I had, could get home from a 20 mile radius! Full credit to paramedics though, I'd just kick them out on the street and leave them there is someone spat or shouted at me when I was trying to help. Trouble is booze is so cheap and people try a d save even more by getting hammered then heading in to get even more hammered. I can get a triple vodka red bull at a local club for £2, went out a few months ago and thought my vodka lemonade was strong, turned out it was Bogof on shots and the just turned 18 barmaid just assumed no one would turn down double shots so didn't even ask if anyone wanted it. Idiot. No wonder people puke everywhere

Also bear in mind that the consequences go far beyond the immediate carnage on the streets and in A+E - there's been a pretty grim rise in alcohol-related disorders (and in ever-younger patients).

[i]FWIW I spent much of my 20's not knowing where I was or pretty much what my name was, luckily never needed assistance though and always weaved my way home somehow.[/i]
and that's exactly [s]hate[/s] the sort of thing people should be ashamed of. But they ain't.

Friend of mine is a paramedic in London and she reckons dealing with the drunks is the worst part of her job. So common as well, 50% of her callouts are to pissed up people who have collapsed.

Drinking culture of this country is so pathetic and sad.

I used to work with a girl, PhD chemist, very intelligent and a genuinely brilliant chemist but her entire weekend was spent almost comatose. Every weekend. Out Friday straight after work, in bed hungover all day Saturday, repeat. Really weird, I just couldn't work out how or why she had nothing else other than work and being absolutely paralytic. She was really proud of it too. 🙄

Trouble is booze is so cheap

I don't think this is the case most the time. As the article said, a lot of the people picked up are clearly can afford decent booze. It's more the inexperience, lack of self control and possibly peer pressure.*

*Possibly.

and that's exactly the sort of thing people should be ashamed of. But they ain't.

True dat. When I go to stay with my brother in Athens, you can go out into the local squares and there are families out and teenagers etc just drink coffee at gone 10pm. I think it's a climate thing or something.

All to regular I'm afraid, no not me without my knickers I'm more controlled now, it's a sight in all towns and cities. There is no definitive group either, I see young and old like this, there's more young people go out though so that's why there's more. It's not in the posh areas, poor areas or anywhere in between it's all areas.

If they've made a genuine mistake, apologise and go on there way it's fine it's often a passer by who rings but if they become nasty abusive then they won't get any treatment. If the stone cold out of it they need my help and they'll get it but it's frustrating for sure.

Still after 22 years I love the job, I'm paid reasonably well but trying to do it in my 50s won't be easy never mind when I'm 68.

Dunno why the word " hate" appeared instead of "The" there. IPad typo!

Dunno why the word " hate" appeared instead of "The" there. IPad typo!

Yeah yeah. Dez is smashed again.

Your my besht mate you is

put the heating on and drink at home you pissheads!

Drinking culture of this country is so pathetic and sad.

We all know who's to blame for that though don't we, eh? 😐

LivesonHaylingIslandmentionnonames.....

I just couldn't work out how or why she had nothing else other than work and being absolutely paralytic. She was really proud of it too.

Ah it's a laugh though innit? Go out, get pissed up, have a fight, throw up over a copper or paramedic. 😆

Was a phase when it weren't a good night out unless there was Babylonian Intervention. Always seemed to kick off just as I was about to pull though, which was annoying. 😡

Es and Cannabis and that are far better though tbh. Used to go out on an E buzz, never ended up wrecked doing that.

Oh no but that's dangerous and immoral we can't possible have that. 😯

Pft.

One of the problems is that we're treated like children, too many rules surrounding the use of alcohol and drugs) and we end up where we are.

Hey ho.

Blimey I've led a really sheltered life, been drunk a few times growing up but never done anything worse than drink! Perhaps I should get stoned, drunk and puke over some paramedics this Christmas so I can say I've lived it up? 😯 Definitely cant be losing my knickers though, I get cystitis if I get a chill on my fanny so I'll have to keep thermals on 😀

Trouble is booze is so cheap

I'm generalising people in my own area Jamie, there's no posh intelligent types round here, they just get drunk cos it's cheap!

You're just so damn cool, Elf.

Hopefully the booze bus is driving past me soon, as I am about to hit the deck...

*swoooooooooon*

Definitely cant be losing my knickers though, I get cystitis if I get a chill on my fanny so I'll have to keep thermals on

😆

Very sensible.

I'm not condoning my previous behaviour, but equally I won't beat myself up over it. I was young, stuff happened. Not proud of it, but equally not ashamed of it either. There's many, many more people doing far, far worse than I've ever done.

You're just so damn cool, Elf.

Some of us have it, Jamie; others can only dream... 8)

I'm paid reasonably well but trying to do it in my 50s won't be easy

Attended a 'binge drinker' found outside her house unable to stand this week who was almost 80........ ..........I kid you not!

I get cystitis if I get a chill on my fanny so I'll have to keep thermals on

Attended a 'binge drinker' found outside her house unable to stand this week who was almost 80........ ..........I kid you not!

Hopefully she had her [s]knickers[/s] bloomers on.

Hopefully she had her [s]knickers[/s] bloomers on.

Thankfully yes but embarrassingly flirty 😳

Edit: comment was in reply to jamie
DS - of course not, I'd just had my dinner

RRV is the answer Drac

'tis true.

RRV is the answer Drac

/googles

RRV Ross River Virus
RRV Rhesus Rotavirus
RRV Resident Return Visa (Australia)
RRV Rapid Response Vehicle
RRV Returning Resident's Visa (New Zealand)
RRV Road Rail Vehicle (Back-hoe excavator used on both rail and normal ground)
RRV Record Relocation Vector (Lotus Notes)
RRV Royal Rifle Volunteers (UK military)
RRV Rhodesian Reconnaissance Vest
RRV Routing Requirements Vector

...any of those?

4th one

Ahh, thought so. Yet, was hoping it was going to be Rhodesian Reconnaissance Vest.

RRV is the answer ?? Seriously?

As a one key fits all mugtitioner who gets dispatched to all and sundry and trys to fit a few complex referrals/ discharges as well...

Ive had more bloomin abuse on the car than in my entire previous 16 years.( and thats not including the abuse from sniping crews and awkward hosp admission staff 😆 )

I was also hoping it would be a Rhodesian Reconnaissance Vest. In fact, I [i]want[/i] a Rhodesian Reconnaissance Vest.

Although it would have to be a Zimbabwean Reconnaissance Vest strcitly speaking. Unless youtravel back in time...

I'm happier on RRV. I wasn't unhappy on the crews beforehand.
There are upsides to being a Paramedic, delivered 1st baby today 😀

YAY! P20 it's a great feeling but not one I'm keen to repeat.

We have strict guidelines for what our RRV vehicles are sent to Brack.

DezB - Member
FWIW I spent much of my 20's not knowing where I was or pretty much what my name was, luckily never needed assistance though and always weaved my way home somehow.
and that's exactly hate the sort of thing people should be ashamed of. But they ain't.

Not remotely ashamed, a normal part of growing up.

Though I concede that may be a (particularly British?) issue in itself.

Er, which sounds to me like exactly the point I was making...

Drinking culture of this country is so pathetic and sad.

It's a northern European thing. Been going on for millennia and wont stop because the prudish know better.

I've seen pissed up youngsters in just about every country I've bin to, bar Bangladesh. Might be a reason why they don't have a problem with binge-drinking there though...

It [i]is[/i] part of growing up. Just that some people never grow up in that respect, which is a bit pathetic really.

Emma82 has made me proper laugh my head off. Thanks for that.

DezB - Member
Er, which sounds to me like exactly the point I was making...

Nope, you were suggesting it was something to be ashamed of.

It's not, as long as you have moved on as you've got older and (hopefully) wiser.

yossarian - Member

Drinking culture of this country is so pathetic and sad.

It's a northern European thing. Been going on for millennia and wont stop because the prudish know better.

Posted 4 minutes ago # Report-Post
Elfinsafety - Member
I've seen pissed up youngsters in just about every country I've bin to, bar Bangladesh. Might be a reason why they don't have a problem with binge-drinking there though...

It is part of growing up. Just that some people never grow up in that respect, which is a bit pathetic really.

Elfinsafety - Member

Ah it's a laugh though innit? Go out, get pissed up, have a fight, throw up over a copper or paramedic.

Was a phase when it weren't a good night out unless there was Babylonian Intervention. Always seemed to kick off just as I was about to pull though, which was annoying.

Posted 1 hour ago

Elfinsafety - Member

I'm not condoning my previous behaviour, but equally I won't beat myself up over it. I was young, stuff happened. Not proud of it, but equally not ashamed of it either.

Posted 58 minutes ago

[b]Babycham made you do all that ?[/b] 😯

Elfinsafety - Member

Ah, I have fond memories of vomiting copiously after a few too many Babychams at teenage parties...

Happy days.

Posted 3 months ago

😆

Ooh, I tell you; the mornings after were not pleasant. You know those ones where you're 'never drinking alcohol again'?

That was me early/mid teens, Ernie. The stuff I've mentioned above din't come 'til later, late teens into me twenties. Beer, mostly, sometimes spirits never drunk wine in pubs and that though.

Uni was an exciting time. 😀

Ooh coon't be doing all that now though. Not healthy. 😳

now some muppet has nicked an ambulance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-16130305

His name to the top of the list for delayed responce or never respond then.

But thats not going to happen....

All too common there's some footage somewhere of the one stolen from our service, then there's this.

http://www.cleveland.police.uk/news/appeals/appeal11378.aspx

and this

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/crime/video_thief_raids_chester_le_street_ambulance_as_medics_help_sick_pensioner_1_3775116

Only found the article and we've had more stolen since then.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tees/6346791.stm

The amount it costs the NHS and drain on resources for self inflicted harm is ludicrous really, it would seem reasonable to invoice people for this.

I know it's at odds with the principles of the NHS...

Essentially though collected by an ambulance for drunkeness could be made a public order issue with a fee of £250 per call out?

Anything to make binge drinking it may even work as a deterrent who knows.

It's grim that NHS staff have to deal with this, it's grim that the majority of the populous have to pick up the tab.

Es and Cannabis and that are far better though tbh. Used to go out on an E buzz, never ended up wrecked doing that.

+1. in fact, plus many. there are well over half a million people out on a weekend popping pills. how many of them (as a percentage) end up in A+E compared to those that drink....?

i think that those drinkers that end up so paralysed that the emergency services need to spend/waste time on them should be billed for their lack of self-control.

Drunk and incapable is an offence with fixed penalty notice. All that is required is that it is proved the person was so drunk they unable to stand or walk or unaware of what they were doing or unable to understand what was said to them.

Just enforce it and perhaps increase the fine. Simple enough I would have thought.

Raouligan - Member
The amount it costs the NHS and drain on resources for self inflicted harm is ludicrous really, it would seem reasonable to invoice people for this....

I think if someone is drunk enough to be incapable of looking after themselves and is doing that regularly, then they have a problem.

How about if someone is picked up they are placed in a secure location, treated, and not released until the hangover period is over, say at least 24 hours.

If they were picked up again within the year, then keep them another day for educational purposes as well as treatment.

If the drinker was a frequent pickup, then the period of retention should be longer each time.

BTW I don't remember the same amount of excessive drinking when I was young. We did get blootered from time to time, but the sheer cost of alcohol in those days meant we couldn't afford to do it often.

project - Member
now some muppet has nicked an ambulance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-16130305

His name to the top of the list for delayed responce or never respond then.

But thats not going to happen....

He stole an ambulance from Hackney and drove it all the way back to Chelmsford - where he lives about a mile from an A&E. What the shit?

Oh dear - someone will be in deep poo for leaving the keys in the motor.

It's happened a few times but you can't always keep the vehicle secure when you need to get the patient into the ambulance quickly. [url= http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-east-news/todays-news/2011/09/13/pelton-man-jailed-for-stealing-from-an-ambulance-61634-29410422/ ]Here's a muppet on my patch[/url]

Raouligan has the right idea. A fine based on being drunk and disorderly is entirely appropriate as the Police are now unable to lock most of them up for fear of vomitting/choking or other possible medical condition. Once it's proved that they were simply drunk, slap the fine on.

Essentially though collected by an ambulance for drunkeness could be made a public order issue with a fee of £250 per call out?

Yeah, great idea. As long as it is also applied to other 'self-inflicted' injury, such as MTBing injuries etc....

Ah, not such a great idea now, is it, eh?

No.

Shooduv thought it through really, eh?

I was out last night with work, met in a pub at 3pm, drank a few, went for a meal, drank a few more. Cut out drinking at 8, started drinking pints of water (much to the dismay of the bar staff) by 9:30 i just wanted to go home, felt badly dehydrated, like i'd cycled 40 miles in 90 degree heat with no water. I probably drank more than i would usually but certainly not a skinful.

What did surprise me though was when i said i was going home people just kept trying to pur drink down my neck or complain as i was a party pooper. Sometimes the UK's attitude to drink is the reason we get looked at like the louts of europe.

Strangest comment i heard was "i cant guage when its time to go home by what time it is, i go by how drnk i am"

Yeah, great idea. As long as it is also applied to other 'self-inflicted' injury, such as MTBing injuries etc....

two pages of mleh and i'm still struggling to understand how a drunk bird bent over with no knickers on makes you depressed ❓

You seem to be confusing 'self inflicted' with 'accidental'.

Or how about 'avoidable'?

Most people don't intend getting so drunk they fall over and need medical assistance. Same as most people don't intend falling off their bikes.

Anyway, in order to fine them you'd need to introduce a new law, as well as having to take a blood sample to produce admissible evidence of their drunkenness. Which opens up a whole new ethical can of worms.

And AKAIK, a paramedic isn't legally qualified to [i]diagnose[/i] any medical/physical condition, so you'd need a doctor to sign the paperwork. Add to that the possibility that the patient may well in fact be suffering from a medical condition that makes them appear to be 'drunk' (such as diabetes), have inadvertently taken other medication that reacts adversely with alcohol, have mental health issues, etc etc etc.

I can see the argument for such a 'deterrent', but then carrying a knife is illegal yet still people get stabbed. Drink-driving is illegal, yet still loads of people do it. Yadda yadda.

It would add a whole load of extra problems to an already overworked system, and would it actually affect things?

Then, what about concerned friends not ringing for ambulances, cos they don't want their drunken mate to get into trouble? So, potential for people not getting medical attention that they need (what if they've injured themselves and need stitching up?).

No, it's a bad idea. I've thought it through and I'm right.

And AKAIK, a paramedic isn't legally qualified to diagnose any medical/physical condition,

how about a STEMI ? amongst others

Of course this is a modern problem...

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Street_and_Gin_Lane ]1751[/url]

STEMI ?

What does that mean?

two pages of mleh and i'm still struggling to understand how a drunk bird bent over with no knickers on makes you depressed

It's the fact those who are trying to help these people, are being abused for their troubles.

Anyway, in order to fine them you'd need to introduce a new law

BTW elf - you are talking bollox about something you quite evidently know little about and trying to obfuscate the argument by introducing irrelevancies such as 'knives' and 'drink driving'.

I can diagnose all sorts of conditions and treat appropriatly, STEMI's included. I'm also pretty good at telling the difference between pissed and hypoglycaemic. Fortunately where I live its not the 1970's so we have blood glucose monitoring equipment.

See my comment above re 'drunk and disorderly'

Irrelevant. In order to charge someone for medical attention received as a result of being drunk and incapable you'd probbly have to introduce new laws and that. All very compulcated you see. And how can you charge someone for something they've not asked you for? A 'charge' would require stuff like contracts between both parties etc, and a 'fine' would require addition, change or amendment to the Law.

BTW elf - you are talking bollox about something you quite evidently know little about

Am I? So, a paramedic is legally qualified to pass medical diagnosis are they? Are they allowed to pronounce soemone dead? Stuff like that? Please, enlighten me.

Or is the limit of their powers, in a legal sense, to 'treat symptoms'?

I'm talking about [b]legal[/b] definitions here, not medical ones. A paramedic sez 'that's just a swollen ankle, rest it up', and it turns out in fact to be a fracture, paramedic is in trouble. Hence, why only a doctor can make such a judgment, legally. See? Which is why paramedics don't diagnose; they treat symptoms.

Apology accepted, btw. 🙂

Are they allowed to pronounce soemone dead?

What, like ROLE?

Can a paramedic/nurse issue a dearth certificate?

Hello elf, normally I agree with you (but keep it quiet) However,

Yes I can "Diagnose death" without the need of a doctor. Given that I can produce an ECG showing that there is no electrical activity in the heart (asystole) or that I have recognised life is extinct (e.g hemicorperectomy, decay, PM staining, etc).

I can also diagnose and treat a varied range of illness and injury, remember a diagnosis isn't a fixed answer, and can be wrong, a diagnosis is simply a statement of "here is what i think is going on". From that, any treatment requires a diagnosis, and as such by that logic even the most basic first aider can diagnose legally. e.g "I diagnose that this man has no head".

As the NHS pushes further towards "see and treat" pre hospital care, the diagnostic role of the ambulance service becomes even more relevent, and further training and development reflects that (just google ECP/Paramedic practicioner etc).

for further reading please feel free to enjoy the JRCALC guidelines 2006 [url= http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/med/research/hsri/emergencycare/prehospitalcare/jrcalcstakeholderwebsite/guidelines/ ]here[/url]

Also, re: the ankle injury, I diagnose all the time, have a google for "Ottawa ankle guidelines".

Have a nice weekend!

jim

Can a paramedic/nurse issue a dearth certificate?

No. Why would they. It's not relevant to their role. They have the "legal" power to ROLE a patient, miss out the doctor and take direct to the coroner at his mortuary if the situation dictates.

paramedic

This is just the old 'dole scum' argument in a different guise.

Make your choice:

a. A system that tries to look after everyone.
b. A system that only looks after the deserving.

The trouble with a is that people get pissed off with the perceived waste of resources.

The trouble with b is who decides who is deserving?

I'd rather live with b and shoulder a little extra tax than live in a country where people can fall through the cracks.

No apology required elf and meehaja has covered the main points.

You could, as you probably will, argue that 'legally' a Paramedic cannot diagnose death as it needs GP or Coroner to sign but in reality a Paramedic confirmation is good enough for the Police. It certainly was on the two I did this week.

Bearing that in mind (and getting back on topic) if a Paramedic or the Police have sufficient reason to believe that a patient is drunk, and in the absence of other medical conditions, it would be relatively simple to gain a conviction and impose a fine.

elfin

"If you have been involved in a road accident, then under the Road Traffic Act, the ambulance service can make a charge, not a lot of people know that..... *might be Scotland only, not clear from http://www.national-ambulance.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60

I do actually coz I was charged after getting knocked off a motorbike by a car driver.

Ok so it's a misunderstanding of terminology; what I'm getting at is stuff what would be admissible in a legal setting. Where there is doubt.

So, if I go to hospital with a knacked ankle, a nurse/paramedic would make an initial medical diagnosis based on obvious signs. But just say I was to make a claim against someone for injury caused, then a doctor would be the only person legally qualified to write down 'this patient has a sprained/broken ankle' etc. Am I correct? IE, nothing a paramedic or nurse sez would have any [i]legal[/i] weight. No?

Because every time I've bin to hospital to get patched up, I've bin told I can't be 'signed off' until I've seen a doctor, 'for legal reasons'. Hence why when I had a finger bitten half off, and the paramedic looked at it and said 'that will probably just need a few stitches', I'm pretty bloody glad a proper doctor referred me for emergency surgery. Had that paramedic just stiched the wound up, I would probbly have lost my finger, possibly my haynd or may even have died.

I was glad of the lack of faff when I had an Avocado Incident, however, when the Triae Nurse just bunged a few stitches in, as it meant I was in and out within 40 minutes and din't have to trouble an overworked doctor.

Anyway; point is in order to start charging/fining folk for their treatment if they're pissed, a whole load of beauraucracy and faff would have to be introduced.

Can't just have a paramedic's word, in a court of law, just saying 'the bloke [i]appeared[/i] to be drunk', you'd need blood samples and that. Some proper physical evidence. Like with drink-driving. No conviction could take place without such evidence.

Are paramedics legally qualified to take blood samples which can then be used as admissible evidence in a court of law?

if a Paramedic or the Police have sufficient reason to believe that a patient is drunk, and in the absence of other medical conditions, it would be relatively simple to gain a conviction and impose a fine.

Really? Without physical evidence?

Elfin probably best you stop spouting rubbish on something you clearly know nothing about.

We actually have a legal obligation to diagnose and treat, we're state registered now and because so we're expected to act professional, correctly diagnose and treat patients.

Am I correct? IE, nothing a paramedic or nurse sez would have any legal weight. No?

No you're wrong a Dr may never even be involved.

Are paramedics legally qualified to take blood samples which can then be used as admissible evidence in a court of law?

Changing direction quicker than a cornered rabbit. And for that reason, i'm out!

Elfin probably best you stop spouting rubbish on something you clearly know nothing about.

...and change a habit of a lifetime? Good luck with nailing that particular brand of fog to the wall.