Or just buy the car with the best braking ability at any given price. Most people are just happy with a car that stops. (I can’t remember the last time I had to do anything remotely like an emergency stop.)
Best braking ability is useless if the DOT4 in the system is over 2 years old. First jobs on every new to me car is new branded pads, discs if badly rusted/worn and replacement fluid. Followed by a set of branded tyres (all standard fitment stuff no upgrades). The changes in stopping distance are usually quite marked and the ability to gauge where lock-up will happen is easier too.
Cougar
Full Member
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronisingI had that too. I posited that I wasn’t driving a Ford Anglia with drum brakes and was talked over with “but thinking time hasn’t changed
I did a course in 2007 and remember asking the instructor who was adamant that braking distances hadn't reduced since Ford Anglia days why I'd just been issued with 'Manual for Streets' (joint DfT & DCLG publication) which explicitly revised downwards junction visibility splay requirements to reflect improved braking of vehicles from old DMRB times. I also got told thinking times hadn't changed but couldn't see the point in trying to argue.
She also said that speed cameras were able to tell the speed limit of individual vehicles so on a 60mph speed limit road would flash a vehicle with a 50mph limit doing 51mph but know not to flash those that able to do 60mph doing 60mph. I called bullshit, but didn't want to be 'that guy' so just sat on my hands for the rest of it.
I found getting older, having kids, riding my bikes more and paying for my own fuel have all had a much more profound impact on my driving than being sat in a room for a couple of hours
Best braking ability is useless if the DOT4 in the system is over 2 years old
Disagree with that. Brake fluid doesn't suddenly stop working once it's 2 years old. Your maximum braking potential for braking trailers down alpine passes might be *reduced* somewhat but it's not true to say your braking capability and tyres etc are irrelevant if your fluid is old.
I regularly test the braking capability of my cars (especially since finding a caliper leak, not during an emergency) and my fluid has been very old at times. It doesn't affect the ability to do an emergency stop or negate the quality of your brakes and tyres.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
If we replace "fault" with "responsibility" then yes it is, and indeed THC has just been changed to explicitly assert this.
We can have "who's the biggest idiot?" debates until the cows come home but ultimately if a ton and a half of steel connects with ten stone of meatsack at a speed differential of 40mph+ then there's only going to be one outcome and whose "fault" it may be doesn't change that. The onus is on the motorist to be aware that pedestrians are utter morons and behave accordingly.
The other part I found irritating was the insistence that no matter how stupid the pedestrian is, eg looking at their phone with headphones on when they step into the road its still the drivers fault.
Or we could change the narrative slightly and say that the pedestrian is both blind and deaf.
If you choose to drive a tonne of metal (you don't have to) then you take on responsibility too
If you choose to drive a tonne of metal (you don’t have to) then you take on responsibility too
This is the key factor. Only one person is making the situation dangerous.
speed cameras were able to tell the speed limit of individual vehicles so on a 60mph speed limit road would flash a vehicle with a 50mph limit doing 51mph but know not to flash those that able to do 60mph doing 60mph
I think modern ANPR linked ones check all vehicles speeds. This can be checked against their classification based on the number plate. Although most cameras are set well above 1mph over the limit.
Doing physics GCSE about 50 years ago you likely learnt more about pure physics than I did in physics A level.
Doing GCSEs 50 years ago would be impressive, that was a decade and a half before they were invented. 😁
Random/ten year testing won’t change much as we can all behave ourselves when we know we’re being watched.
I'm not convinced.
There will be an element of 'best behaviour' of course, but as I said earlier the vast majority of attendees on the SACs I sat simply had no clue. Monospeeders don't drive everywhere at 40mph because they think it's a safe choice, they do it because they don't have the remotest notion of what the speed limit on a given piece of tarmac actually is.
It was OK, I did learn what a “dual carriageway” actually is.
I'm intrigued by this. I've heard it mentioned before with respect to speed awareness courses. How do they define dual carriageway?
A dual carriageway has a central reservation or an otherwise physical barrier separating opposing traffic flow. Despite popular misconceptions it's bog all to do with the number of lanes.
(That's not how 'they' define it, that's how it's defined.)
There will be an element of ‘best behaviour’ of course, but as I said earlier the vast majority of attendees on the SACs I sat simply had no clue. Monospeeders don’t drive everywhere at 40mph because they think it’s a safe choice, they do it because they don’t have the remotest notion of what the speed limit on a given piece of tarmac actually is.
I did one about 8 years ago and at the start each and every one of us had to explain how we got caught. I was last, and had just listened to each person say how they'd no idea that they were speeding.
The Instructor came to me and I just said I was speeding and knew it, I had the cruise control set at 80 (A449 in South Wales for those that know it).
The room went silent...
The dual carriageway thing confused a lot of people on my course too! One guy was very confused that a NSL road could switch from a single to a dual one and back without needing any signs to say the limit had changed.
At the start of the assessment the instructor told everyone to drive normally. Which was pointless as obviously everyone treated it as a test. 10 year assessments would be the same. Bad habits like speeding would vanish for 45 minutes.
Don't forget a lot of people have the attention span of a goldfish so it won't take long for them to be forgetting to indicate, cutting corners, not observing other traffic and in some cases twitching to grab their phone. I used to do the odd driving assessment at my old job and the amount of times the people driving (usually just after their interview so completely in the 'make a good inpression' mindset) would forget they were being watched by me in the passenger seat and automatically check their phone after it beeps or speed around the industrial estate was unreal. The best was one who didn't put their seatbelt on and spent the whole drive using just one hand at the 12 o'clock position, never indicated once.
A vast amount of drivers would fail even a basic assessment.
Ive always thought its nuts we don't all have to reapply for driving licenses every 10yrs or so - with increasing frequency as age becomes an issue....
Drivers would have to pay for the test, government would make a profit, accidents would reduce, driving standards would increase.... Society would benefit...
Not something many people would vote for though
I used to do the odd driving assessment at my old job
A vast amount of drivers would fail even a basic assessment.
Yup. i used to do the assessments for access to certain classes of company cars, quite a simple checklist of competencies. Far easier to pass than an EU/UK driving test, probably as it was derived from a US checklist.
Used to fail about 30%. They'd then get in their own cars and drive back to the office and complain to their manager about being failed for something "that really didn't matter".
Had one guy who actually managed to persuade his manager to sign off anyway (at the time, it was ultimately the managers responsibility, not mine), he then promptly lost his license, while in a company car.
These days you have to go and do a proper test, with someone trained to do it. Rather than driving around with a senior engineer who has been told it's his job to make sure they're safe. Then they update your passcard, manager never gets involved. Or me, thankfully.
Ive always thought its nuts we don’t all have to reapply for driving licenses every 10yrs or so – with increasing frequency as age becomes an issue….
It then becomes an infrastructure issue though. I passed my test in 1990, back then the waiting list for a test was something like six weeks and I doubt that it's drastically changed for the better since then. Retests every ten years (which is something I am very much in favour of BTW) would require, what, a 600% increase in driving examiners alone. Possible perhaps, but not trivial to implement.
Maybe what's needed is something like the SAC but without such a chubby for speed limits. Who's picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I'll wager. Eg, there's people driving today who demonstrably don't know how mini roundabouts work because they didn't exist when they passed their test. And there's the classic we all know of course, "you don't pay road tax!" which was abolished before anyone driving today was born. Perhaps some sort of group-based refresher scheme might work?
Who’s picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager. Eg, there’s people driving today who demonstrably don’t know how mini roundabouts work because they didn’t exist when they passed their test.
Im early 50s and there were no roundabouts (mini or otherwise) in the town where I passed my test in 1988. Only 1 set of traffic lights as well, and no dual carriageways any where near. I suspect plenty of people are of a similar age and have no idea about such things (apart from a small bypass, the nearest dual carriageway is still over 40 miles away, and I know people younger than me that don't drive on motorways...)
THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager.
I bought one a while back to torment my daughter (who was taking her test at the time) I was surprisingly OK. and I hadn't looked at it since I passed my test in the late 80's. My wife stole it as she's managed to get a license in the UK because; Canada. And is driving more.
I know people younger than me that don’t drive on motorways…)
I can see why though, when i passed my test i can remember getting on the recently built dual around my small town, and encouraged by my old man; "pressing on" until we got to 70 and frankly being more than a little bit scared and wondered how people manage to process anything at that speed.
Not something many people would vote for though
Probably because we're one of the safest countries in the world, for ALL road users - so the costs would outweigh the benefits.
And before you all jump down my throats over saving deaths, if we wanted to really save lives, about 50x's the number of road deaths, just stop folk smoking.
That’s not how ‘they’ define it, that’s how it’s defined.
Well quite. But how do "they" define it?
if we wanted to really save lives, about 50x’s the number of road deaths, just stop folk smoking.
It would be interesting (and probably impossible) to work out the health costs of bad driving. Pollution from speeding, people put off walking and cycling, etc
Perhaps some sort of group-based refresher scheme might work?
Hmm how's about starting by selecting/targeting those who need it most 🤔
Not sure why everyone is coming up with 10 years for anything. I did a SAC 10 years ago and my driving changed for about a week and then was back to how it was before.
Agree with others that the course was actually fairly interesting but it had no bearing on my driving.
The only thing that would change my driving is working average speed cameras everywhere it would be possible to have them. Imagine that would be the case for others too and clearly only stops the speeding part of bad driving.
Who’s picked up THC since they passed their test? Not many I’ll wager.
From the frothing gammon comments on any newspaper article anywhere in the country about highway code changes or literally any article to do with cycling (no matter how benign), there are a LOT of drivers who not only don't know their HC but are very keen to showcase their complete lack of knowledge - helmets, 2-abreast, cycle lanes, road tax, cycling on pavements, road tax, insurance, red lights, road tax, hi-vis, lights...
It's amazing how wrong they can actually be at times. And then baffling to think that they're actually allowed to drive.
The only thing that would change my driving is working average speed cameras everywhere it would be possible to have them. Imagine that would be the case for others too and clearly only stops the speeding part of bad driving.
No need when a tracker could be fitted to everyone's car, had one in my co car with threat of sanctions if flagged up as speeding, did the job, could probably do with one on the motorbike 🤔
Eg, there’s people driving today who demonstrably don’t know how mini roundabouts work because they didn’t exist when they passed their test
Its not that long ago that they put a roundabout in Stornoway and stationed the Polis at it to teach drivers how to use it as it was the first/only one in the Outer Hebrides. 😀
Well quite. But how do “they” define it?
Correctly, also.
Not sure why everyone is coming up with 10 years for anything. I did a SAC 10 years ago and my driving changed for about a week and then was back to how it was before.
Point is, there's a difference between being wilfully shit and ignorantly shit. Whilst you're clearly in the former camp there's a vast number of people in the latter.
Point is, there’s a difference between being wilfully shit and ignorantly shit. Whilst you’re clearly in the former camp there’s a vast number of people in the latter.
Thanks. A vast number of people is not my view on it.
It’s amazing how wrong they can actually be at times. And then baffling to think that they’re actually allowed to drive.
If being a dick commenting on motoring/cycling articles carried points and a fine, congestion would be a thing of the past within a week.
No need when a tracker could be fitted to everyone’s car, had one in my co car with threat of sanctions if flagged up as speeding, did the job
... assuming again that exceeding speed limits is the b-all and end-all of motoring discipline. Is your magic tracker going to stop tailgating, running red lights, inattention, the kids in the back squabbling, being pissed or high, updating Facebook...? Is it going to tell them what the current speed limit is, who has priority on mini-roundabouts, that the middle lane of the motorway isn't the "cruising lane"?
Sure, there are technological solutions for at least some of that lot. My humble Civic (usually) knows what the speed limit is, for instance. But I can't help feel that a bundle of high-tech driver aids isn't a sensible substitute for basic competency. If it were, we wouldn't need driving tests in the first place.
… assuming again that exceeding speed limits is the b-all and end-all of motoring discipline.
Unfortunately many/most do, including on this forum based on the comments on the post.
Some good data here for overall road safety:
Unfortunately many/most do, including on this forum based on the comments on the post.
I don't think anyone does, this is just a straw man created by people who don't like being told not to speed, so they don't have to feel bad about speeding.
… assuming again that exceeding speed limits is the b-all and end-all of motoring discipline. Is your magic tracker going to stop tailgating, running red lights, inattention, the kids in the back squabbling, being pissed or high, updating Facebook…? Is it going to tell them what the current speed limit is, who has priority on mini-roundabouts, that the middle lane of the motorway isn’t the “cruising lane”?
The solution to all that is autonomous cars so quite a way off yet especially to the point where human driven cars were totally removed - 100 years?. Until then we have more and more people driving.
Thread derailment incoming in 3... 2...
We've discussed this to death previously, many times. Excessive speed is often a contributing factor to either the cause or severity of an incident, but it is very rarely the only factor. In obsessing about speed alone (which is something that's really easy to police with automated systems and of course is potentially a large revenue earner) we ignore many other issues. I would welcome a Tailgating camera or a Not Looking Where You're Bloody Going camera. Hell, a RLJ camera on every set of traffic lights would be a positive step and likely equally lucrative simple to implement.
If being a dick commenting on motoring/cycling articles carried points and a fine, congestion would be a thing of the past within a week.
MCTD for Prime Minister
Hell, a RLJ camera on every set of traffic lights would be a positive step and likely equally lucrative simple to implement.
Only if they catch those bloody cyclists as well. Number plates for cyclists?
Speed being an important aspect of accidents is another of those red herrings that requires cars to obey the laws of physics. You only have an accident if more than 1 object occupies the same space at the same time. Speed is not a factor in that happening. Sure speed will make the accident worse / more severe but it wont stop an accident happening
Well quite. But how do “they” define it?
Correctly, also.
Well in that case I'm a bit baffled that anyone could not understand what a dual carriageway is. I was expecting some weird complex definition.
Well in that case I’m a bit baffled that anyone could not understand what a dual carriageway is. I was expecting some weird complex definition.
It's simple because, as this thread demonstrates, a vast quantity of those with licences don't have the ability to process complex stuff and drive! 🙂
Eg, there’s people driving today who demonstrably don’t know how mini roundabouts work because they didn’t exist when they passed their test.
My grandfather drove army trucks around Germany with no license (and I'm not sure how much training on the rules of the road they were given, likely most training was how to operate the truck, and then just told to follow the truck in front).
When he left they gave him a full UK license.
A decade later he was able to afford his own car.
A few years after that he taught my mum to drive.
Luckily my mum saw sense and paid for proper lessons for me.
If being a dick commenting on motoring/cycling articles carried points and a fine, congestion would be a thing of the past within a week.
It'd be very funny - comment on FB "cyclists are scum and should pay road tax" and then a week later receive 3 points and a £60 fine in the post. 🙂
If we had a decent system of law enforcement and didn't treat driving as some sort of divine right, we could slash pollution, congestion and injuries / deaths within weeks.
The tech is all there - you already unlock your phone / laptop etc with a fingerprint or face ID. Same on a car (or some sort of combination of smart licence / integrated breathalyzer) would cut car theft overnight and largely remove uninsured / banned drivers. Speed limit tech. Much more roadside testing (driver for drink/drugs/banned/uninsured and vehicle for road worthiness). Mandatory re-tests every 5 - 10 years.
Going fast is fun though
Speed being an important aspect of accidents is another of those red herrings that requires cars to obey the laws of physics. You only have an accident if more than 1 object occupies the same space at the same time
Someone has no understanding of risk, speeding increases the risk of two vehicles being in the same place at the same time as it reduces the time for a driver to anticipate this eventuality and avoid it. Speed is a contributory factor to many accidents happening and the severity of the accident.
FWIW I'd not retest everyone with the driving test but get everyone to undergo a driving assessment, probably in a simulator with a carefully constructed driving scenario which monitors peoples awareness, where they are looking, road positioning, space to vehicle in front, braking / accelerating etc. If the algorithmic output is below standard I'd then put them on a test with a real person. If they fail that it's licence suspension and training until an appropriate standard of driving is proven. Easy way to gather data about people's driving in general.
Picking up on the comment earlier around the journey times from A-B being only marginally longer when you reduce speed, is there a google maps type routing service that allows you to pick your max speed?
Picking Edinburgh to Bristol as a route at random has the average speed at 55mph as default based on current traffic. This will presumably be based on a max speed of 70mph when possible.
Is there a way to play with this, by setting the max cruising speed of 60mph on motorways to see what the total Journey time would be?
It would be pretty interesting and informative if it were available!
In obsessing about speed alone
We're not
You only have an accident if more than 1 object occupies the same space at the same time. Speed is not a factor in that happening.
Sigh.. it very obviously is. There are many examples I've noticed from nearly 30 years of driving, but one is at junctions. Most drivers look, see a car, and think 'that's far enough away' and then pull out. If that car is going unexpectedly quickly then the gaps and safety margins are all effectively smaller, which means that the speeding car is more likely to perceive that the other car 'just pulled out right in front of me'. By going faster, you increase the size of the area that is 'right in front' of you. This then increases the likelihood of two cars occupying the same space.
Makes me sad that you are presumably qualified to drive yet you don't seem to understand how your conduct affects others and their ability to respond to any given situation.
In other words, speeding actually creates more dangerous situations, all on its own.
Another even more obvious example is that more speed makes it more difficult to stop. So if someone is in your path, you are very much more likely to be occupying the same space as their car eventually. This is absolutely on the driving test and in the highway code.
Speed being an important aspect of accidents is another of those red herrings that requires cars to obey the laws of physics. You only have an accident if more than 1 object occupies the same space at the same time. Speed is not a factor in that happening. Sure speed will make the accident worse / more severe but it wont stop an accident happening
This is one of the dumbest things I’ve read on here for ages.
My car is the same size at 150mph, so there is no increased chance of occupying the same space as another car, and I'll get to my destination quicker.
