Completely agree with the comments above, everyone should have a mandatory re-test every 10 years.
I was caught, fair and square, doing 44 in a 40
Im surprised, whilst you were obviously over the limit the ACPO did (used to) recommend not prosecuteing for upto 10% +2mph over the limit. Whilst this was totally discretionary it did seem to be fairly common, both your experience and crazy-legs suggest otherwise.
As for having to re-certify every 5/10 years i'd be all for it.
Even some medical issues are basically self declaring, you'd have thought something even as basic as an eyesite test/declaration that you still meet minimum standards would be a good idea.
We did do enhanced training years ago because one of the vans was over 3.5 ton so we needed to hold a CPC card to drive it. Whilst everyone resented having to come in on a Saturday to do the training it was a good reminder/refresher.
Oh and
The instructor was very anti cyclist, she made some pretty stupid remarks, the rest of the group lapped it up. Didn’t make much of a fuss as I am sure she would of kicked me out.
I'd have certainly made a complaint after the session. One of the instructors who did our cpc session was very anti-cyclist, however on the basis they couldn't fail me I was able to be quite forthright in suggesting just how wrong they were.. this was the same instructor who told us that our mobile phones have a "secret" battery so even if they are flat we can still make a call...
When I did a speed awareness course I was surprised by the amount of attendees who thought the national speed limit for a single carriageway raod was 50 mph so they left the course knowing they could drive another 10 mph faster completely legally.
I was caught speeding (it was a stitch up with very poor signage, but I couldn't be bothered to challenge it) and I did the course. It didn't change the way I drive as I agreed with everything the instructors said, it could've been me up there. And yes, lots of drivers were very stupid. I did learn a few things about default speed limits though that had changed since I first read the HC.
Insane that it's up to us to refresh our own knowledge of the HC when it changes. Who the hell does that? Even I don't and I'm as sanctimonious as they come!
everyone should have a mandatory re-test every 10 years.
Completely agree with this sentiment, and if it was at the drivers own cost (I know, another tax on the motorist... * yawn*) then it may go a little way to seeing a driving licence as a privilege, rather than a right...
I did one during lockdown 1. Complete waste of time and effort. It was clear the instructor was there to pedal the message and didn’t let facts get in the way. Many delegates on the course we able to describe areas where according to the instructor signage was not compliant with legislation and insisted we all wrong and it couldn’t happen. In some cases more than 1 delegate described the same place.
Completely agree with this sentiment, and if it was at the drivers own cost (I know, another tax on the motorist… * yawn*) then it may go a little way to seeing a driving licence as a privilege, rather than a right…
There needs to be a dramatic shift very quickly.
Much harsher roads policing and sentencing - in fact i'd be in favour of removing jury trials for road crimes and just having it dealt with at magistrate level but with far harsher sentences. Currently it's far too easy to kill someone and be let off with a fine, a few points, a short ban. Bans are difficult to police - you'd have to be quite unlucky to be caught while banned so sentencing for that needs to be immediate. Caught while banned = we will transport you to jail there and then and you'll stay there for 6 months. When you come out, your car will have been crushed.
The daft thing is, this is actually quite easy to police, the tech is all there. There's just no political will to enforce or mandate any of it. Stuff like speed limiters, black boxes, dashcams, smart keys linked to insurance databases, mandatory retests (again, linked to insurance)...
Currently, 5 people a day on average are killed on the roads and very few people bat an eyelid. If that happened on the rail network, the entire thing would be shut down instantly. There would be total, complete reform, court cases. On the roads though? Yeah, whatever, price of freedom.
I managed to get through one a few years ago by sitting there as quietly as possible even though I wanted to kill the argumentative guy who had to challenge everything the instructor said and seemed intent on making the half-day fairly tedious exercise a full day slit-your-wrists to escape hell.
I got caught doing 35 in a 30 after dropping someone at Bristol airport, my fault, was tired and really should have told them to take a taxi, with hindsight it would have been better to take the points and fine rather than sit through listening to "that guy" bleating.
the tiny effect that going faster actually has on arriving sooner,
This is the biggest thing for me. If only people realised how effing pointless it all was - tailgating, trying to go 10mph quicker before the next clog of traffic, trying to get past that lorry before your slip-road in 1/4 mile, overtaking the same cyclist 5 times over before the next red traffic lights.
Some people would still be dicks, obvs, but realising that all the stress of trying to go as fast as possible when you might, at best, save a minute an hour might get a lot of people to chill the **** out. Exactly what re you going to do with that extra minute anyway, even if you do "win" it?
the stopping distance thing surprised me a lot
Yeah me to - the way in which speed is shed when breaking got me. I can't remember the exact numbers but it was something like if 2 cars break to a full stop at the same time, one doing 70 and one 100mph, and the car doing 70 stops just before crashing into something, the car doing 100mph is still doing around 70mph when it hits.
I have been caught twice, many years apart, Both times roads I knew the road / speed limit (and once when I knew where the fixed speed camera was - doh). Sheer inattention, and the courses can go some way to addressing that.
I dodn't learn a lot on the one course I did. The above re stopping speeds was probably it, but as others have said the numbers who didn't seem to understand anything about driving was concerning. Had a couple of anti-cyclists, and one guy who was insistent that pedestrians are not allowed on national speed limit roads. I pointed out to him that my house was on such a road (country lane with no footpath) and did he expect me to call a taxi when my kids wanted to walk the 40 yards into the village to the shop...
EDIT - found this which explains the difference just 5kmph extra can make https://www.science.org.au/curious/technology-future/physics-speeding-cars
It was clear the instructor was there to pedal the message and didn’t let facts get in the way. Many delegates on the course we able to describe areas where according to the instructor signage was not compliant with legislation and insisted we all wrong and it couldn’t happen. In some cases more than 1 delegate described the same place.
It's almost as if the purpose of the course that day was to have "the system" picked holes in rather than enhance the skills of the users. And by finding anomalies the users got to feel vindicated that they were after all awsums.
I drive coaches for a living, so also have DCPC card, i undergo regular driving assessments, and regular training in the classroom too.
Does it make me a better driver?
I’ve had 1 accident in my car in 21 years, when someone else ran a red light and clipped the bumper on my car.
Freak accident, you might think, but the lady admitted to me she had just got the car as she’d rolled the last one.
Some people just can’t drive/or do other things very well.
I recently took my mum to Glasgow in my car, the 2 things she noticed were that i left a safe gap to the vehicle in front, and that I spotted potential hazards a lot earlier than she did.
I’d consider my driving to be average.
I’d be in favour of all drivers having to take periodic training, at their own expense, and of a CBT type scheme which had to be completed before you even get near a public road.
I never fail to learn something from the training courses I attend. (Or, possibly, relearn)
Oh, and, as someone mentioned already, make every car driver do a motorcycle CBT course, the added awareness makes everyone safer imo.
I did one a few years back, didn't really find it all that useful, tbh.
I've done two, one was forever ago and the more recent one was (with no hint of irony) done over Zoom. I'll not bore you with excuses, I could whine that both were blatant money-making honey pots but ultimately it was my own fault. The Zoom call was professional enough, the in-person one was deeply condescending.
My take-away from both was a) I've never seen such a motley bunch of abject morons and b) anyone coming away going "wow that was brilliant, I learned loads!" shouldn't be on the road.
Highlights included:
Absolutely no-one knowing speed limits.
Absolutely no-one knowing what a dual carriageway is.
A woman admitting she'd run over a cyclist, thought this was hilarious and expected a big laugh from the rest of the group.
A young lad who didn't know any road signs at all bar the half dozen he knew were on the test.
A bloke who was shocked to be told that no, his brother couldn't sit the course instead of him. Then kept trying to surreptitiously change places throughout the course.
Me being lectured for being "overconfident" when asked whether we thought we were above average drivers. Dude, look around you, that wasn't a critique of my own ability, rather the 'average driver' is a $%^&ing roaster. If I thought I was a below average driver I'd take lessons or take the bus.
Many, many excuses and attempts at justification as to why they were there. Almost everyone was speeding intentionally, I think I was pretty much the only one going "yeah, I screwed up, sorry."
I am, of course, demonstrably a monster so I'll now go and look for my asbestos pants whilst the STW proletariat mount their leggy equines.
There should be a simulator course with a machine that tracks your eyes to see what you're not looking at on the road.
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Fair cop.
It was, genuinely, a useful couple of hours; we covered the basic of speed limits (i.e. it’s pretty obviously 30, 60 or 70, unless there’s a sign telling you otherwise), honest discussion about why people speed, the significant effect that just a couple of MPH over the limit has on stopping distances and impact speeds, the tiny effect that going faster actually has on arriving sooner, hazard awareness and techniques for dealing with tailgaters, stress, distraction etc etc. All done in a very open, collegiate, non-judgemental, way.
Anyway, it got me thinking – it’s pretty mad, really, that they’re not something that everyone has to do at, I dunno, ten-year intervals or something, to keep their license. Most professions that involve the use of complicated machinery or techniques in a hazardous environment need some sort of recertification, why not driving a vehicle on the road?
Discuss…
Agreed. Refresher every ten years and suspend the licence of everyone involved in an accident until they've sat a refresher course.
Me being lectured for being “overconfident” when asked whether we thought we were above average drivers. Dude, look around you, that wasn’t a critique of my own ability, rather the ‘average driver’ is a $%^&ing roaster. If I thought I was a below average driver I’d take lessons or take the bus.
Don't most people think that everyone else on the road is an idiot?
Some of our buses have ‘eyeguard’
Tracks your eyes to make sure you’re watching the road.
Look in the mirror for 2.5 seconds and it sets off an alarm.
Happened to someone i know, he said the depot called him less than 10 mins later asking him wtf was going on.
The technology is out there, we could stop people using their phones/driving distracted quite easily.
Probably fair to add, the considerable technology fitted to my company vehicles has saved me from several completely false allegations too.
as someone mentioned already, make every car driver do a motorcycle CBT course,
This just isn't practical, sadly. Plenty of people wouldn't be able to ride bikes for all manner of reasons. But it's the single best thing I ever did to improve my driving post-test, I learned way more on the CBT than I ever did on a SAC.
My take-away from both was a) I’ve never seen such a motley bunch of abject morons and b) anyone coming away going “wow that was brilliant, I learned loads!” shouldn’t be on the road.
Actually, yes - I did think it was concerning how many people had no idea about.... driving.
The course instructors stopped asking me questions after the first few after it was obvious I knew all the answers and no-one else in the room did.
Don’t most people think that everyone else on the road is an idiot?
I've no idea. I wish that this were true, but I fear that messrs Dunning and Kruger might want a word.
Don’t most people think that everyone else on the road is an idiot?
I assume they are and try to drive accordingly...
Everybody should be able to drive to the standard required of a test
and
My daughter recently passed her test. She wasn’t taught to drive safely or even particularly competently – she was taught purely how to pass the driving test.
My daughter has her test Friday and I'd tend to agree. I'm sure the instructors know what they are doing and what examiners are looking for, but eg: rigidly dropping to 2nd and 15mph for every roundabout even when clearly clear etc., - I'm not sure it is checking the right things.
I did think it was concerning how many people had no idea about…. driving.
Right?
Sure, we can all learn something, there were bits that were interesting. But "loads"? Just... wow.
There should be a simulator course with a machine that tracks your eyes to see what you’re not looking at on the road.
I'd love for dashcams, front, rear, and pointed at the driver; to be mandatory. Both party's reviewed in the case of an accident (by a human) and blame apportioned based on that.
Could probably then get rid of every other law and rule.
I was there because I was caught, fair and square, doing 44 in a 40. I was doing 44 in a 40 because I hadn’t noticed the limit change from 60.
So really you were doing 44 in a 60. Are you one of those people who also does 20 in a 30 andfrustrates the bejesus out of everyone? (Actually truth nbetold I am one of THOSE people who tends to do just that!)
Re: CBT first
This just isn’t practical, sadly. Plenty of people wouldn’t be able to ride bikes for all manner of reasons.
The number of people with physical disabilites or genuinely poor balance to preclude them riding at the least a twist and go automatic, or even one of those 3 wheeler leaning yamaha things must be small.
Anyone who just refuses based on "but motorbikes are too dangerous" needs to be told "yeah, thats the point. Get the bus"
So really you were doing 44 in a 60. Are you one of those people who also does 20 in a 30 andfrustrates the bejesus out of everyone? (Actually truth nbetold I am one of THOSE people who tends to do just that!)
My worst motoring trait is when i get impatient at times, can mostly back myself off that as i tend to set off earlier on journeys to make up any time i lose on the journey, but i rarely speed, i just find that on most roads, on most days there's always someone doing 30 in a 40, 40 in a 60, etc, etc.
Reality is that speeding isn't a huge issue for most, biggest issue for me where i currently live is that the town has grown, but the roads have been upgraded badly, leaving a lot of drivers unsure what to do, which makes roundabouts 'fun' at times and any filtering/joining roads a gamble.
This just isn’t practical, sadly. Plenty of people wouldn’t be able to ride bikes for all manner of reasons. But it’s the single best thing I ever did to improve my driving post-test, I learned way more on the CBT than I ever did on a SAC.
SOME people wouldn't. Not sure it's "plenty" of people.
Could make it work by having it as an opt-in though with some sort of financial incentive. CBT first = free car test or lower insurance or something. You'd have to iron out the details so it's not a source of inequality to the people who genuinely can't ride a motorbike / scooter but I reckon it's doable.
I passed my test first time and I think a large part of that was cos I'd been riding bicycles since I was a kid, including large amounts of on-road stuff so I knew the hazard perception stuff. My sister (a non-cyclist) took 4 attempts to pass her test.
This is a fortuitous thread as I had my course last Friday.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc...
I did one a few years ago, was caught exceeding 30 in a spot where people like to "press on", it was a fair cop and made me realise just how stupid speeding in/around towns really is.
I found it genuinely useful and it calmed my driving and general attitude to driving at speed down a lot.
Never scored a point before or since but I think my likelihood of getting snapped by a camera dipped after I did the awareness course.
I'm now a big fan of using Speed limiters around towns and built up areas, and not treating everything journey a race.
I know I'm not a 'good' driver, just someone with a currently valid licence to drive, which I'd like to keep, and no real desire to be in an accident or kill anyone...
I did one ages back, and part of it was to go out in pairs with an advanced driving instructor and spend 3/4 hr each getting criticised. A very humbling/ salutary experience but also loads of good tips that have stayed with me. Should do another one really.
Don’t most people think that everyone else on the road is an idiot?
I’ve no idea. I wish that this were true, but I fear that messrs Dunning and Kruger might want a word.
That's pretty much the point isn't it. Plenty of people don't understand the basic concepts of driving, but still assume that YOU are the idiot for eg doing 20 mph in a 20 limit. Add in the people who don't care. Add in the drunks and the drugged. Add in the incapable, or the ones with poor eyesight, or the distracted, or the ones who think they have the right to be distracted, the ones on their phones....
From DirectLine : A fifth (21 per cent) of motorists who need glasses or contact lenses always drive without them
So if you add those people to the ones mentioned above then you get to a figure of maybe 1 in 4 or 1in 3 cars on the road really shouldn't be there. The roads would be much nicer place if that happened.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance.
Probably just didn't want to confuse the M3 drivers who think it's okay to do a ton coz of the wonderful German engineering.
I am still confused by the fact the instructor was adamant that the vehicle made no difference to the stopping distance. I thought she was very patronising but maybe this was necessary for some of the other attendees and I understand that a simple message is key to it landing in a 2hr course. However, the stopping distance must be variable based on vehicle weight, contact points ie tyre/wheel size, size of brakes, electronic aids etc…
Someone needs to offer her a physics course ;o)
No been on one, but now I'm older and hopefully wiser I'm Happy to drive very progressively and within or even below the limit.
Primary motivation is to save fuel and tyre wear etc, but it's also a much less stressful way to drive.
Less stress means better observation and avoidance of hazards, and in the event of an accident, hopefully much less damage or injury.
It's a win win scenario really.
Things that used to wind me up (getting cut up, people pulling out on me etc.) I've learned to just not care about it any more.
Makes for a much happier driving experience.
Someone needs to offer her a physics course ;o)
That's insane! Extreme example but is she saying the stopping distance between a fully laden HGV and a Caterham 7 is the same from 60mph? Lol
See also people with pretty fast cars that buy the cheapest tyres possible.. You've only got to look at tyre tests see the eyebrow raising difference in stopping distances between budjet and premium tyres!
Just a random example https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Summer-Tyre-Market-Overview.htm
Did my second last week as above some interesting facts re stopping distances etc side question do the instructors have a duty to report or just report attendees that appear to admit to dangerous driving or similar crap attitude? A ‘professional’ driver on my course complete dick …if I’m being held up I will tail gate the offender by 1-2ft till they move over. also anti cyclist and pedestrian didn’t agree with new HC laws on vulnerable road users etc
Did my second last week as above some interesting facts re stopping distances etc side question do the instructors have a duty to report or just report attendees that appear to admit to dangerous driving or similar crap attitude? A ‘professional’ driver on my course complete dick …if I’m being held up I will tail gate the offender by 1-2ft till they move over. also anti cyclist and pedestrian didn’t agree with new HC laws on vulnerable road users etc
Doubt they'd do much, as it'll just go down as hearsay or bravado rather than actual evidence for any charges.
From DirectLine : A fifth (21 per cent) of motorists who need glasses or contact lenses always drive without them
That’s a truly scary statistic.
The standard of driving in general is appalling, in my opinon, and while i wouldnt have been best impressed if it had been more arduous when i was getting M|Y license, and i appreciate that a lot of learning is done once youve got your license and are let loose on the roads, i think that the licensing should be much more restrictive.
* - regular retesting
* - license limitation on size of vehicles <3.5T (Engine size, weight, or dimensions) much like with motorbikes, which can be revoked down as well as earnt up
* - Perma-bans for breaking certain rules, or once you reach a certain number of points.
* - a more variable test! you have to do some of your lessons in a van, for instance, and on a bicycle, to get a sense of what other people can and cant see.
obviously MY driving is excellent (maybe?).
I was there because I was caught, fair and square, doing 44 in a 40. I was doing 44 in a 40 because I hadn’t noticed the limit change from 60. I hadn’t noticed it change because I’m human, and make mistakes.
Based on that then it's not all of us who need to retake our tests every 10 years, just folk like you 🙂
From DirectLine : A fifth (21 per cent) of motorists who need glasses or contact lenses always drive without them
That’s a truly scary statistic.
When I learned to drive I didn't need glasses. When I started to need glasses it was just for using computers. At some point my eyes have got worse and I've made the decision to wear them when driving (mostly), but at no point have I been told that I need to wear them when driving.
At my last eye test I specifically asked the question and was told "probably", so it's still not clear (ho-ho), and if the Police stopped me and asked to check my license there's nothing on there to indicate that I need to.
There seems to be a gap in the process there somewhere. How should the driver or the DVLA be notified if circumstances change?
IMO, there should be mandatory training and testing every 10 years.
I agree. Never done a SAC, but I did pass my first Advanced Drivers Test at 18. Cars have not been kind to my family and I take my driving very seriously.
I also agree about mandating a CBT, even on an automatic scooter, just to give pre-drivers a flavour of what vulnerability feels like.