[Closed] "I asked God to help me"

TJ pls tell me what my religion is? I would be interested to know especially as I am supposed to be a hypocrite (little clue, I have never read the whole Bible or the Koran or the Bhagvad Gita, but have read parts of all of them.) I have however been very interested to learn from an indoctrinated minor about how these texts can be interpreted very differently though. Always good to debate things except with the narrow minded

Edit: interesting comments hill dodger sounds like we have common thoughts

TandemJeremy - Member
hilldodger not you...

:phew: anyway surely pick'n'mix died out with the demise of Woolworths 😀

In many ways i'm sorry to play this game but badnewz, the Jewish people are an obscure people in one location and Jesus only revealed himself to them . Why for the bulk of human history did god hide his light from the peoples of Asia Australia Europe Africa the Americas etc . Surely an all knowing all powerfull all present divinity would be globally present not just a secret for some sheep farmers and ex slaves in the middle east to slowly spread .

Yes, I don't think He did. I subscribe to the one light, many lamps concept. The reason we know so much about God from the Jewish tradition is because they were an advanced culture, very literate.

Teamhurtmore - you claimed to be a Christian last week did you not?

500

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). Nice to be called a hypocrite though.

( Anyway don't want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

At this point I'd like to ask: What Would Feynman Say?

"It doesn't seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama."

I've posted that on here before but it gets to the nub of the problem I have with at least Abrahamic religion.

It does not of course preclude the existance of some form of superior being.

At this point I'd like to ask: What Would Feynman Say

teamhurtmore - Member

I would be very surprised (as I have hinted already in his thread). So I am a hypocrite....hmmmm?

"Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!"

I like the way you blame me for your banning - I don't blame you for mine - I am man enough to accept responsibility for my actions

I take it all back - not everyone has learned from their recent bans 😉

TJ, with respect, your debating style does us no favours.

It is a shame when potentially interesting discussions descend into name calling, why oh why TJ do you have to keep doing it....

..Good night, and may your God go with you

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Hilldodger -

i do apologise for that to you

I allowed teamhurtmore to get under my skin which I should not. However I stand by my assessment of him. the fundamental dishonsety of his appraoch is infuriating

with that I will leave this as I should have done the moment he appeared on the thread.

Teamhurtmore. In the slight of chance that you have missed TJs arguments on this sort if thread they go like this:

Are homosexuals good or bad? If bad then you have no place in modern society. If good then you disagree with what the bible says and therefore aren't Christian. You can't win so it's best not to bother.

Shame really as the discussion started to get interesting after page 5 which often seems to happen. Good job though and your posts are appreciated. The idea that the bible is a collection of texts that need interpreting isn't one that lends itself easily to discussion like this

I wonder idly if part of the problem is that some of us are perhaps judging 'all Xians' by the beliefs and actions of the US bible belt fundies.

It must be a tough one to consolidate as a Christian; either the Bible is the word of god or it isn't. If it is, we're in "god hates fags" territory; if it's not, then it's a strange starting point to base a belief on. If you accept that it's a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Leffeboy - no the point is this

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

An alternative point of view is that 'scriptures' are the collection of documents considered to be inspired by God in some way. That might be either by being written by someone who was in direct contact with Jesus, written by one of the prophets or maybe written by someone that God is considered to have spoken to directly. Of course deciding which of these documents is authoritative enough to be included causes some problems? In many cases saying that someone 'wrote' a book is also incorrect, especially for the Old Testament, where the stories may be stories about someone rather that written by them.

teamhurtmore - Member

( Anyway don't want to be drawn into another banning courtesy of your misinformed comments again, so pls drop this)

You seemed obsessed with not getting banned again teamhurtmore, relax mate - it's good to let your pent up frustrations out.

And with 15 pages this thread certainly appears to have been the catalyses for releasing some pent up frustrations.

Perhaps if STW discussed religion a little more often people wouldn't feel the need to keep their views on religion bottled up for so long 💡

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

Slavoj Zizek thinks that is essential:

Either the bible is the word of god and should be believed in its entirety or it is not. If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

Funny that an atheist is now pronouncing on theological issues, isn't it?

If you accept that it's a book of parables designed to lead a better life then that makes some sense, but kind of negates the god aspect from it. Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

There was that bishop, wasn't there? And btw I've spoken to quite a few Christians who consider the bible to be a set of parables or writings by humans. Doesn't preclude the existence of God, does it? Now we're getting into some realistic shades of grey, and looking at human interpretations of scripture and religion.

Surely it's everyone's perogative to interpret the bible as they see fit. Do you also have to go to Church every Sunday to be a Christian?

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

If you can pick and chose which bits to believe then yo undermine any credibility for any of it.

That only undermines the notion that it is the word of god.

Individual sections still retain their value as moral / instructional tales.

Indeed cougar and these are some of the interesting questions even for non-Christians. Take the parallels in the NT and how they are to be interpreted. Was Jesus indeed fulfilling the prophecies of the OT or were they all post-event justifications. Does it matter? what does the word Hosanna mean in the Easter story? The one that people are told in Sunday School or something completely different? I suppose it's like studying literature or history, so much more to understand and debate that seems at face value.

Thanks Leffe and Ernie - don't want to miss the bike forum. Too much to learn!!!!

So then - the bible is not the word of God? Its actually people who interpret it and tell you which bits to follow and believe - so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people?

so it has no more validity that any other book written by fallible people

Long usage has given it great validity.

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

I think it is the other way round. You can believe in God without being a Christian (eg. Jews). To be a Christian you also have to add Jesus to the equation and believe that he is related.

Can you be a Christian without really believing in a god?

There are secular Jews so why not secular christians?

Doesn't preclude the existence of God, does it?

No, but it calls into question one of the reasons for believing in the first place (ie, 'it says so in the bible'), does it not?

looking at human interpretations of scripture and religion.

Is there any other way of looking at it? Human interpretation is all we have.

There are secular Jews so why not secular christians?

Is a secular Christian not just the start person who classifies themselves as a Christian because they live in a nominally christian country but doesn't necessarily attend church other that feast days (not that church attendance has anything to do with whether or not you actually believe)

I don't know but I'd say a secular christian would need to be a bit more than what you say.

Someone observes christian principles, practices and festivals but who doesn't believe in the god of the bible.

This probably describes quite a few bishops.

No, but it calls into question one of the reasons for believing in the first place (ie, 'it says so in the bible'), does it not?

Interesting one. I'm not sure if people first believe there might be a god and then look for sources of info. of what he must be like (including the bible) or if people only believe there is a God because the bible says so. People believed there was a god before the bible was written down so I'm not sure that the bible is why people believe

I would liked to of read this thread, then it gets taking over by the usual suspects squabbling, why don't the mods keep threads alive but delete & bar these individuals from threads that they turn into there own self loathing of others opinions.

Spin - that was what I was trying to say but failed unfortunately. I'm not sure there are bishops who don't believe but there are certainly clergy.

why don't the mods keep threads alive but delete & bar these individuals from threads that they turn into there own self loathing of others opinions.

Because censorship is a greater evil that putting up with a few muppets.

People believed there was a god before the bible was written down so I'm not sure that the bible is why people believe

Historically maybe not, but it's oft cited as why people believe currently.

Before the bible, people believed in all sorts of things. I always wondered why a religious person would choose, say, a Christian god over the polytheic views of the Romans or the vikings say. If you told someone you believed in Thor and Odin, you'd get laughed at; conversely, it's not likely to see Jehova cropping up as an Avenger any time soon.

whatever floats yer boat really isn't it, [u]so long as no one else is hurt[/u], what does it matter what you believe! who cares? not me. But when your belief system impedes or is destructive to another persons freedoms, then it becomes a problem. Personally - the vehement "I AM right and you are wrong" sort of belief in anything religious is for egotists and the small minded. Same goes for right-on militant atheists, although this makes sense to me http://www.humanism.org.uk/home

Cougar - part of what you say was summed up well by that chap Dawkins to paraphrase - believers are atheistic about the vast majority of gods I just go one god further.

Whether you believe in any God or none the length of this thread suggests that religion isn't going away any time soon 🙁

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Historically maybe not, but it's oft cited as why people believe currently.

Really?

Really?

No.

believe in yourselves guys.. it's what Jesus would have wanted

Yes it is and haves been on this thread and on previous ones. this is one of the key points to this argument. to condense it

non believer " why do you say we have to do this?"
Believer "'cos it says so in the bible"
NB " do we have to do everything it says in the bible" ( point about gays/ abomination)
B " no we can pick and chose bits"
NB "how do yo know which bits to obey then?"

That doesn't say anything about it being "why people believe"

You haven't said anything about the Bible being the reason that people have faith in something that can't be proven.

TEEJ, it's a red herring, WGAS whats in the bible. Once you go down the road of beliving in god, all relgious behaviour after that is just a symptom of mental deficiency, so expecting rational behaviour from god botherers is pointless.

edit - as nealglover said..