[Closed] Hunting - for or against?

As someone who sabbed every saturday between 1994 and 2001 in cheshire and lancashire

Ninfan, you do post some grollox but your compare'n'contrast above is right on the money

Nope, still grollox

let's consult an actual 'animal right's movement':

Foxes:

Humans and foxes can – and frequently do – peacefully co-exist. But if you do ever need to deter foxes from your land, always choose humane, non-lethal methods. These tend to be cheaper than old-fashioned “pest control”, more effective in the long-term and, of course, kinder. Organisations such as The Fox Project can offer more detailed advice

http://www.ifaw.org/united-kingdom/our-work/foxes/fox-facts-uk

Badgers:

There is no evidence that the badger cull is helping to reduce bovine TB.

In fact, Data already published by DEFRA contradicts any claim that the evidence proves the badger cull is working.

To assess whether the effects of the cull are overall positive or negative you need to wait four years according to the 10-year study Randomised Badger Cull Trials.

Ninfan wasn't quoting (sic) 'the animal rights movement'. He was quoting an individual's personal opinion (on this thread) re shooting foxes as a preferred method to dog-hunting. The individual did not (incidentally) mention badger-culling, to my knowledge. Ninfan cared not for that but instead set about misusing said commentator's words to create a 'strawganisation' that is (of course) as hypocritical as it is non-existent. Dishonesty is dishonest.

Ninfan wasn't quoting (sic) 'the animal rights movement'. He was quoting an individual's personal opinion (on this thread) re shooting foxes as a preferred method to dog-hunting.

[i] Some farmers will continue to cull the local fox population or may even have a problem with the occasional fox. Culling should be carried out by the most efficient and humane means available. In practice we believe this means the use of high velocity rifles by users who have passed a competency test or by humane trapping.
[/i]

League against cruel sports submission of evidence to the Burns Inquiry (Committee of Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs)

[i]Shooting foxes is widely regarded as a humane, more effective alternative to hunting. Evidence of wounding caused by shooting is minimal.[/i]

RSPCA evidence to Burns Inquiry

what you need is some pikey's out walking their [s]fighting dogs[/s] pets at around about the same time happens even they might think about evening the odds for the fox

Ninfan, the RSPCA is not 'the Animal Rights Movement', neither do your selective quotes above show what you claimed re your earlier manufactured straw-quotes re 'shooting foxes vs shooting badgers'

^ I'll just leave that there. Am lead to believe that you have [url= http://bfy.tw/FmZd ]previous[/url] so ah'm oot.

I accept, and even support, respectful hunting for food (and additional use).

I tend to support tradition.

What I hear about 'the hunt' is that it is unnecessarily brutal, and has nothing to do with food and/or other positive use.

Finally, though, I also think that the way we as a society consume meat and other animal-based products is wholly immoral, and that we need to collectively reconsider what an animal is, and how we use other living creatures.

If there were no animal based industry (dairy, chicken farms, pheasant / partridge / grouse etc shooting etc), there'd be no 'need' for fox / badger hunting in the first place. I'm sure foxes, buzzards, eagles, rabbits etc would find a healthy equalibrium.

I live in the middle of a forest and keep chickens and as long as you get them in before dark there are no issues.
In fact I have only seen 2 foxes in the 17 years I have lived here, the rural foxes are wary of people.

This was not the case when I lived in a town and the ducks I had were attacked in broad daylight. Quite often saw foxes strolling down the road in the middle of the day but didn't see any hunts chasing them through the streets...

Theres a difference between shooting an individual problem Fox and the wholesale pre emptive slaughter of thousands of Badgers for no good reason.

I mistakenly thought T May was a reasonable person trying to shepherd the Tory lunatics until she too came out as a hunt supporter.

I now eagerly look forward to her political demise.

Just quickly scanning through the thread it looks, on the face of it, that an overwhelmingly majority are in favour of the Hunt Ban. I think that’s a fair representation of the UK population.
The Ban itself is still in force, has been for 12 years in the England, a couple of years earlier in Scotland.. yet I think oddly Fox Hunting is still legal in Northern Ireland.
Anyone from over there care to comment?

The comment above about separating Politics from it I think is valid, Fox Hunting is most definitely a Class issue, certainly those that I encountered were most definitely divisions of Class.

Just to qualify my previous comment ..the devastation in the hen house was during the day ..the hens are locked away each evening ..
I've seen lots of daytime foxes in this ( very ) remote area while out riding ..

Let's try not to make this political

But it is, May made it so again recently.

If we stop hunting foxes then huge numbers of hounds will be put down.

Save the foxhounds!

I dont think the hunt ban is a fair representation as too many "accidents" happen. The ban is a fudge at best

In its current form as a means of pest control? Keep the ban. As a bloodsport, *definitely* keep the ban. I primarily object to people getting dressed up, then moderately pissed, then going off to kill things.

If some bloke keeps a few hounds and jogs along behind them, probably OK.

If we stop hunting foxes then huge numbers of hounds will be put down.

Save the foxhounds!

Not sure if trolling. You are aware of the numbers of foxhounds that are [s]retired[/s] killed every year simply for being too old, 'unsuitable', 'too many' in a litter, etc?

Hi,

Def against fox hunting for sport. Have met good and bad hunt supporters whilst fell running and biking when working in the lakes. Some were friendly some were not. Same goes for farmer and other outdoor users ( and fellow bikers !).

Worst was when I was nearly driven over on a bridleway by a blood crazed chap in a 4x4 dashing to get to a vital bit of spectating.... very scary.

I get the social side but I dont get the perverse lets all dress in tweed / camo and stand by a 4x4 with other overwhelmingly overweight white country folk shouting into a radio excitedly about the hunts progress...

Also the girls I knew in the local pub really didnt like the boorish and sometimes creepy behaviour of some of the hunt members after they had consumed alcohol on a hunt day. Worse than normal...

I am certainly a hypocrite as I do eat meat / dairy and have done some falconry in the past. I am really, really anti grouse shooting on a variety of levels. Suggest people read Mark Avery and George Monbiot for an idea.

Paul

Lots of stereotypes and political aspersions here which reflect personal attack’s on the individuals with views as opposed to data or evidence.

If wanting a serious debate with actual evidence, read the Burns report [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/265552/4763.pdf ]Here[/url] for some facts.

It is an emotive subject and as someone has rightly said a moral one, therefore imo it’s down to individuals moral compass.

No such thing as a swift nip to the back of the neck!

As someone who sabbed every saturday between 1994 and 2001 in cheshire and lancashire

we must have friends in common

Maybe here too. I was doing the Cumbria foot packs and vale of lune back then. Then Essex Herts and Suffolk until I moved abroad in 2008.

The ban was rubbish. In the weeks before, the police had resources to follow us with video evidence gatherers (cops in overalls jogging through the countryside filming the sabs) and they put a helicopter up every Saturday morning. How much does a police chopper cost to fly per hour? Sabs got arrested, and de arrested, week in week out for imaginary offences, never charged.

[i]Post[/i] ban, there was magically no money to police the illegal hunting.

Hunting - for or against?

Post ban, there was magically no money to police the illegal hunting.

Also I believe hunt aggression against sabs has increased post-ban due to the lack of police - the cops were there to protect the hunt but they did at least rein in the worst of the hunt violence in many cases - and heightened tensions. The only solution is to disband the hunts or to have a strict licensing system for drag hunts.

PS. Think I was at the vale of lune (used to call them the vale of lunatics) a couple of times. They were one of the more violent hunts I seem to remember. My main memory of Cumbrian foot packs was of needing to be a bloody good fell runner (I wasn’t).

It is an emotive subject and as someone has rightly said a moral one, therefore imo it’s down to individuals moral compass.

and why the tories (if they have a moral compass at all it must be completely broken), are still dragging fox hunting back.
It has gone (legally) and is a thing of the past and we should be saying 'did we really used to do that?"

Hunting for food (personal consumption) - for

Hunting for sport - only for psychopaths

I'm definitely pro hunting, whether it's for food, population control or to kill vermin but....those people are assholes.

There's a hunt that happens round here early in the new year. Without notice or warning hundreds of horse boxes and range rovers (most from NI and England) appear out of nowhere blocking lanes, entry ways, passing points and even obstructing people's drive ways and lanes. Post hunt they fanny about on horse back and make little or no effort to allow cars walkers and cyclists to pass to their own homes.

The last year it was held here I treated the riders and horses with politeness and respect and they acted as though they owned the roads. If they have a hunt this year there'll be no such niceties and any dodgily parked vehicles will be dragged out of the way.

Brother in law and mother in law nearly came to blows over xmas dinner in an argument about fox hunting...

Personally, I have no issue with control of vermin populations but that’s not really what the ‘hunt’ is about is it?

And hunt followers? ****s, the lot of them.

PS. Think I was at the vale of lune (used to call them the vale of lunatics) a couple of times. They were one of the more violent hunts I seem to remember

You're not wrong! But at least they weren't on my doorstep - we avoided our local hunt as you'd see the terrier thugs around town (visited my mam once and one of them was steam cleaning her carpets) so we'd swap hunts with the Lancaster group.

The fell packs were just chaos, especially when high up in places like Kentdale or High Street in bad weather. Don't know how we didn't end up calling out mountain rescue every week.

Against...the ban is in place, the hunts will have suffered with their supposed job losses etc already. The hunts are still going with drag hunting etc, what is to be gained by legalising.

I ride a horse occasionally, I can deal with cyclists/motorbikes, the only things that really put me on edge are riding on the road (a necessity sometimes), uncontrolled dogs (one good bite could result in the horse being put down) and finally, meeting the hunt! Horses are pack animals and I'd bet that if the hunt came past I would have no choice but to join in, said horse has attended one in the past so she knows what it is, it would be a huge battle to stop her joining in...

Hunting for food (personal consumption) - for

Hunting for sport - only for psychopaths

How about Trophy hunting?

[img] [/img]

Has Ninfan turned into Jivehoney?

If you want to kill foxes, use an effective and humane method. Rifles work well.

If you want to canter about on a horse as part of the butlins cavalry and show off your wealth then do that.

Please, lets not do the second whilst failing to do the first.

Hunting with horse and dogs has only tradition as a defence. Traditionally we executed murderers, ruled absolutely by a monarch and were duty bound to practice archery. All of these things have long since passed into our history, time for hunting to pass.

In Devon I'm aware of at least three hunts that have continued unchanged and unchallenged despite changes in the law. The one I ran into last week was as antisocial as every other - full of unfriendly, elitist, self-important twits. This week there were roads blocked by horses, landrovers and quad bikes along with dogs running uncontrolled over a main road (and nearly getting run over themselves).

I can deal with cyclists/motorbikes, the only things that really put me on edge are riding on the road (a necessity sometimes), uncontrolled dogs (one good bite could result in the horse being put down) and finally, meeting the hunt!

IME Horse riders with dogs are some of the worst offenders for having poorly trained animals running amock. There is no excuse for endangering others by not having any animal under proper control which brings me to this:

I'd bet that if the hunt came past I would have no choice but to join in, said horse has attended one in the past so she knows what it is, it would be a huge battle to stop her joining in..

This, for me, is in the same category as "Sorry my dog bit you, he doesn't like cyclists" or "My horse doesn't like traffic" or any other non-excuse for lack of proper control and training.

I dislike the practice of fox hunting with dogs, it's cruel. But then so are foxes. Ask anyone who has lost poultry or small pets to one.

And I'm not sure where you draw that cruelty line. Flushing rabbits out with ferrets, using birds of prey to control pigeons, fishing for sport?

Fwiw the majority of people who ride with and work for hunts are not rich upper class twits as the public perception would have it.

I'm not in favour of scrapping the ban, but in areas where foxes are a problem, I'm not sure what a more humane solution is. A neat clean shot is harder than most people would imagine.

It's easy to get dragged into an inverted snobbery hating of the posh and entitled bitchfest when talking about hunting. That's a separate issue and you need to be able to distinguish the two imo to have a properly formed opinion of the activity rather than the attendees.

To that end I'm still anti hunting. If scoring goals is the ultimate aim of a football match, killing a fox is the ultimate aim of a hunt. Getting enjoyment from the actual act of killing another animal and arranging its death for maximum entertainment value rather than maximum humanity is not a mark of civility and should not be allowed. It has been mentioned previously that meat eaters eat for pleasure therefore it equates to the same thing. Not so imo. Meat eaters may eat meat for pleasure but the eating is the pleasurable aspect with the death being taken care of as humanely as possible. Personally, not humanely enough, therefore I am a veggie but I still can't equate the two.

I grew up in the country and met very few folk that hunt that I'd want to spend time with. Not because they hunt but because most of their other personality traits and values don't seem to coincide with mine. Hunting seemingly by coincidence attracts the sort of people I naturally have little time for. It does not make them bad people, just incompatible people with me. If they want to continue the tradition and are satisfied with a (genuine) drag hunt and can do it in such a way as to not inconvenience others whilst safeguarding the welfare of wildlife that they might inadvertently come across then I'm more than happy to let them play. If they can’t then it too should also be banned.

I dislike the practice of fox hunting with dogs, it's cruel. But then so are foxes

Foxes aren’t cruel. They are foxes doing what foxes do.

And yes, I’ve seen the aftermath of a fox attack, and yes, I’ve shot one before.

MoreCashThanDash - Member

I'm not in favour of scrapping the ban, but in areas where foxes are a problem, I'm not sure what a more humane solution is. A neat clean shot is harder than most people would imagine.

Not so according to my friend who does it for a living, all you need is the right kit and to be familiar with it. He has invited me many times, but I cannot be arsed.

I'm not in favour of scrapping the ban, but in areas where foxes are a problem, I'm not sure what a more humane solution is.

This is a red herring. Fox 'hunting' (with hounds) is not about 'population control'. It's for entertainment. Furthermore:

http://www.discoverwildlife.com/british-wildlife/do-we-really-need-control-foxes-uk

Foxes and agriculture

Fox predation has a direct economic cost to agriculture of approximately £12 million per annum. However, the bulk of fox diet is made up of rabbits, which cause in excess of £100 million damage to agriculture each year.
Fox predation therefore also brings significant indirect economic benefits to farmers, and foxes are probably economically neutral to agriculture.

Foxes and lambs

Lamb losses to fox predation are small in relation to other causes of lamb mortality. In most circumstances, there would be no benefit to farmers from carrying out additional fox control since, as fox populations are reduced, the benefits obtained by culling foxes are increasingly outweighed by the costs of doing so. The greatest benefits to lamb production are likely to be achieved through improved husbandry of lambs, especially during the first week of life.

Mileages will of course vary but this thread is full of the kinds of generalisations and flat-out fallacies that similarly plague other politically-charged debates.

ie: 'Cyclists - are you for or against them?'

'I understand the need for them to pay road tax because they currently don't, and I know that they are a pest, [b]but[/b] I don't support BMW-drivers killing them'

it's cruel. But then so are foxes. Ask anyone who has lost poultry or small pets to one.

No they're not cruel at all. 🙄

How about Trophy hunting?

absolutely for psychopaths only, not many politicians aren't

On the basis of this thread, and the fact that I've not been involved for at least 4 maybe 5 years now, I'm going to call an old friend (part of the Ashbourne Hunt Set that I used to ride with) and ask their opinion on current issues..
Noting like being informed from the horses mouth...

trophy hunting is for losers

wearing fur in other than severe conditions is for losers, and sadly more young girls seem to be wearing it. Doesn't matter if fake, it's the symbolism cos it looks tat as well.

Fox hunting is a dilema as the theory of it is decent - the fox is killed an awful lot faster than being caught in a snare or with a non-fatal shot - the hunt only tends to catch the less fit foxes which are the ones that are more likely to scavenge and be a vermin problem.

So it depends whether you thing foxes need to be controlled.

I'm more concerned about the number of badgers that get culled :

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2017/09/badger-cull-could-new-evidence-end-feud-good

Against hunting with foxhounds, but I'm OK on drag hunting with bloodhounds. The bloodhounds are only trained to follow human scent so there's no scope for 'accidental' killing of foxes.

Against, also against shoot's.

Only way it can be called a sport is if the birds are armed.

I dislike trophy hunting and the people that do it, but if controlled and licensed it generates the income that removes the financial drivers for poaching, so in some cases it's a necessary evil.

ballsofcottonwool - Member

Hunting for food (personal consumption) - for

Hunting for sport - only for psychopaths

Precisely this.

MoreCash, you are aware that your last two posts make you sound like a horrendous apologist?