Bloody roofers. Why is this still a thing? Pay your fair share of tax like everyone else.
Quite a big company too with multiple offices. And I'm pissed off that the original quote got revised upwards by 20% after the job was finished when I said I wasn't going to pay cash.
Credit Card.
Section 75 is the main reason I have one.
I wonder what the odds are that they'll also be found in the pub on a Friday night griping that "I don't see why my taxes should go to fund [insert personal grievance here]"
Have you that quote in writing?
Did it have VAT on it, or did it not thereby suggesting they were under VAT threshold?
And I'm pissed off that the original quote got revised upwards by 20% after the job was finished when I said I wasn't going to pay cash.
Can they do that - assuming similar scope/materials?
I find that builders generally quote all their prices ex-vat to domestic customers. You can see why you'd routinely quote ex-vat when work is business to business but it makes no real sense to do so to a home owner. I presume it's a bit of a sales technique to soften the apparent price being quoted. We had our roof re-done last year and everyone quoted an ex-vat price and didn't give a calculation that included the vat as part of the quote, leaving it to the customer to work out what the real price would be.
You might need to look back at the original quotation / correspondence - it maybe the final bill would always have been 20% more than the quote however you paid. The wording regarding vat might be in the general body of the quote rather than stated as '£xxxx plus vat'
Credit Card.
Section 75 is the main reason I have one.
Surprising how sizeable construction companies (ours was work done as part of contract with 75 other properties just in our neighbourhood alone - they're a big firm) often don't have facility to take card payments - probably for exactly that reason. Cheque or BACs with our one.
Surprising how sizeable construction companies (ours was work done as part of contract with 75 other properties just in our neighbourhood alone - they're a big firm) often don't have facility to take card payments - probably for exactly that reason. Cheque or BACs with our one.
it’s generally because a credit card transaction incurs extra costs.
I work strictly bank transfer, no cheques, no credit cards and no cash above £100 as they all cost me extra to bank.
Much more fun interviewing the kind of folk that take cash to avoid paying tax.
"Can you show me where in your records you paid for your Porsche?. Oh, you can't? What will the seller say when I ask them?"
Obviously some folk accept cash and account for it properly. But not many.
Verbal quote but reasonable enough that I went with them.
I find that builders generally quote all their prices ex-vat to domestic customers. You can see why you'd routinely quote ex-vat when work is business to business but it makes no real sense to do so to a home owner.
And solicitors. And estate agents. And many and various other people. It really pisses me off (or at least it did when we were moving house, cos everyone we spoke to about anything did it...).
The default should be including VAT, regardless of who you're supplying the quote or bill to. If the recipient can claim the VAT back then good for them, but they'll know that anyway.
I've a few mates in the trades.
In fairness to them, and I assume many more 'Tradies' they'd like to be 100% squeaky clean, they certainly are when it comes to their own tax affairs etc, and I'd go as far to say the generation who'd curse about "the VAT man" are gone.
But... they're in competition like anyone else and they work in 'big numbers' they're small businesses with 4-8 members of staff who rely on them to pay their own mortgages and bills and they may work on less than 10 jobs a year. A gap of only a few weeks between jobs can be disastrous for them.
It can be a case of do it the wrong way, or you can't do it at all.
I was always told as a contractor it's good practice to price work ex-vat as it allows you to charge vat at the current rate.
It's a simple work round the possibility of vat rate changes at budget time, this is especially relevant on long term projects with stage payments.
price work ex-vat
which is fine as long as the quote includes the words "+ VAT" at the end so everyone is clear.
Quite a big company too with multiple offices. And I'm pissed off that the original quote got revised upwards by 20% after the job was finished when I said I wasn't going to pay cash.
Are you sure you didn't just misread the quote and miss the +VAT bit?
And 'cash' prices are usually cheaper than just the VAT element because they don't just lose the VAT but also declared income tax/NI.
So if a job was £10k +VAT - they may do it for £9k cash.
And it's usually the small guys who just deal in cash - big companies generally can't just lose large sums of cash. Too much analysis from VAT inspectors. Believe it or not they know what a company of 'X' size should be paying in VAT compared to their purchases and turnover.
it’s generally because a credit card transaction incurs extra costs.
And credit card companies have deep pockets when it comes to getting section 75 repayments back. Plus the trader can then lose the ability to take card payments which can cramp cashflow somewhat.
Doesn’t really matter if they don’t take credit cards in the 1st place though?
it’s generally because a credit card transaction incurs extra costs.
...and create a paper trail they'd rather didn't exist...
I was out for a curry on the weekend... 12 of us. All in trades/self employed. When the bill was divied up I was a wee bit shocked to see everyone stick their £25 cash on the dish without so much as a second thought. It is the first time I have seen that in many many years.
Could obviously be down to the fact that I am one of the younger ones at 59!
I was self employed ( photographer) for thirty years and never once got paid in cash, I recently had to have some plastering done, got a quote from a guy who came highly recommended, when I asked if the quote included VAT he just said that that was the cash price and I could put it through the company if I wanted to but it would be an extra 20% on top for the VAT, totally brazen.
Often because they are asked by the customer how much for cash?
or they are competing with other businesses that aren’t VAT registered somehow.
it’s not always driven by the tradesmen…..
Had our flat roof done a couple of weeks ago. New EPDM rubber down.
4 quotes, all inc vat all around the same price.
Only 2 of the contractors got up on the roof to check it's condition
Last guy did, seemed nice enough and lives local.
Have verbal quote Inc vat, but dd a cash sale deal meaning it was £1k less.
Now I quite like the services we get for our tax contributions, but I just couldn't manage to stick to a principal for that much. :-/
Scumbag grifter I know works for a roofing company (labourer). He is always paid cash, pays no tax, and apparently the firm only has a turnover through the books of about £12k, as all their work is cash, and yet runs a few vans and 'employs' several people. How do the IR not pick up on this?
It boils my p1$$ that he had an 'employed job' (club doorman) but gave it up as he didn't like paying so much tax. He gets paid about £750/week (~£39K/year), for which he'd need to earn ~£50k to take home that amount. Still claims all the benefits etc that he can (social housing etc), and smokes a huge amount of weed. Doesn't give a t0$$.
Has anyone actually reported suspected VAT fraud on the basis of paying cash and not getting a receipt which itemises VAT (which you don't need unless you are a business).
ETA also, if you accept a quote that does not mention anywhere that the quote is exclusive of VAT, then that is the amount you are obliged to pay. Possibly in a B2B situation it could be argued that "ex VAT" is implied, but when quoting to a consumer I really can't see that one running.
Also not all businesses will be VAT registered
"Now I quite like the services we get for our tax contributions, but I just couldn't manage to stick to a principal for that much"
and therein lies a large part of the problem. I did pay the 'extra'. It was a bit painful and I have had a few people tell me I'm an idiot for doing so. However, I quite like the NHS etc
Just got a quote for some work this evening.
Labour element was to be paid £500 cash up front to cover incidental costs, then on completion £1000 BACS transfer to the business and another £1000 cash because "I don't want the tax man to take his share".
Mate, the tax man technically has 72 hours to report you or the tax man could be done for misconduct.
I can sympathise with someone paying a builder accepting an invitation to pay less for cash - you can want people generally to pay their fair share of tax but don't want to be the only person paying the extra amount.
Society needs rules robustly enforced.
Trade here. We take all payments electronically by bank transfer or occasionally a cheque. We are no longer Vat registered..We don't want cash.
How people get rid of large quantities of cash always intrigues me - it's a bloody nightmare. If you're doing it off the books, how are you paying your mortgage? Paying of your overdraft? Or whatever? How do you get it in your bank account? Pay into your pension?
If you buy your diesel with it, your accounts start looking dodge. Everything is digital now, its all traceable.
It boils my p1$$ that he had an 'employed job' (club doorman) but gave it up as he didn't like paying so much tax.
I've got a mate who espouses pretty full on socialist values. Until it comes to his own contributions of course. Properly came back to bite him on the arse during COVID as he couldn't show enough contributions to qualify for the self employed payments during lockdown. Whereupon he started moaning about the injustice of it all.
Trade here. We take all payments electronically by bank transfer or occasionally a cheque. We are no longer Vat registered..We don't want cash.
How people get rid of large quantities of cash always intrigues me - it's a bloody nightmare. If you're doing it off the books, how are you paying your mortgage? Paying of your overdraft? Or whatever? How do you get it in your bank account? Pay into your pension?
If you buy your diesel with it, your accounts start looking dodge. Everything is digital now, its all traceable.
Very much this. Exactly why I don’t take cash either. It’d only have to go into the bank anyway as, y’know, I’ve got bills to pay, pension contributions to make etc. Only a stupid person thinks HMRC are stupid and won’t notice!
I've a few mates who are tradies... Deffo taking tonnes as cash and keeping it off the books.
I see where they spend it:
Holidays and gambling! Or do it all in one with a Vegas holiday.. wasn't unusual for him to spend 10k in the casino...
DrP
Slightly off-topic but had a guy do our soffits, facias, gutters etc. a few years ago. Asked him his preferred method of payment. Bank Transfer. Flatly refused cash as he had recently done a "cash job" and he client had laundered a load of fake notes through him. A painful lesson as he had no comeback.
Holidays and gambling! Or do it all in one with a Vegas holiday.. wasn't unusual for him to spend 10k in the casino...
I’d rather pay the tax myself 😂
Is it allowed to pay cash for chips in a casino and then have your winnings paid out either as a check/bank transfer/directly onto a card?
If so that would be a piss easy way of getting cash into your bank account. The house edge for blackjack is what, around 1%? Far less than VAT, regardless.
Assuming there are winnings…
I guess there’s nothing to stop people buying chips, sitting in the bar, then cashing them out again later though. I’d have thought any sort of tax investigation would ask to see a pay out slip to prove the source of the ‘winnings’