[Closed] how many more have to die at the hands of the NHS?

Seems to be a culture of 'we are overworked/too long hours' as a catch all for mistakes.

Blaming that alone is almost as wrong as blaming the people alone. Looking at these things in isolation is human nature I think, but probably represents the most significant impediment to improving safety.

as the OP i say again the nhs is a brilliant institution bringing health and life to millions every day. it is not free though as one post proclaims, 100 billion quid a year is not a small sum it is though fair value

however all those folks who write of excellent staff etc your quite right they do exist in thier tens of thousands and make up the sizeable majority

however when i read of and personally experienced catastrophic individual bad practice why is that i continually see/hear many of the points /arguments above. when will the majority actually recognise that negligent care by an individual, to a standard that causes death is not acceptable and that the individuals should be held to account for thier actions.

i m not questioning the difficulties faced in taking histories, difficulty in diagnosing, prescribing appropriate medication any competant practioner will do thier best and upmost to do the right thing, and be able to justify thier actions. but all those working within the nhs must recognise as do all of us in other proffessions that amongst the brilliant great and good lurk the incompetant and negligent.

i owe my life to a significant number who did what they belived to be the right thing and tried thier best in stressful difficult conditions. i saw the look of horror on a registrar face as my artery opened in front of him and he fought to stem it in a situation he and i clearly had no experience of, the nurse late on xmas eve who spent the extra 10 minutes seeking out someone who could better read a routine ecg, the nurse who worked with me for a whole shift when my lungs collapsed in hdu.

i can also recognise negligence/incompetance that has threatened that life saved. recent events have hilighted what regular patients have known for a long time there are days/ times of day that it is dangerous to be ill in hospital equally there are members of staff who through negligence/incompetance are equally dangerous and they should clearly and visible be held to account for thier actions

it is not free though as one post proclaims

It is free at the point of delivery. And it is perfectly valid to draw attention to this founding principle when discussing the NHS - it is quite indispensable and ultimately bound to its core values.

negligence/incompetance are equally dangerous and they should clearly and visible be held to account for thier actions

Which they are if found, reported and upheld. The case you highlighted for your hyperbole it would appear that maybe there was negligence. The problem is we don't know as the press haven't bothered with any details.

The founding values are indeed the best bit, but behind that the picture is mixed and the NHS shouldn't be immune from scrutiny and criticism. From this weeks FT

NHS is the world’s best healthcare system” was a headline last week in The Guardian newspaper. However, six paragraphs in, the authors observed: “The only serious black mark against the NHS was its poor record on keeping people alive.” Further investigation was clearly required.

Turns out that we are not actually that good at keeping people alive, which is quite important. But that is not just the fault of the NHS obviously.

Thanks Julian, I am aware of Swire. Still not privatisation though is it, so yes sloppy headlines etc.

The original idea of the NHS was around a shorter life expectancy and a higher proportion of working people to the young and old, something which has changed Since 1960 the average life expectancy in the UK has risen by more than 10 year (World Bank) this puts more people in the retired non working so not contributing as much section and becomes a strain on resources.

The sheer number of different illnesses and conditions no healthcare professional will know everyone, and cannot reasonable be expected to know them all especially when so many things have similar symptoms.
My wife was showing signs of a pulled muscle, turns out it was DVT which was diagnosed by a second Dr in seconds.

The best way of increasing the quality of care is to add more front line staff, Dr's and nurses are whats needed, not managers and office staff. My wife is a nurse on a small specialist ward with a small number of staff but the ward manager has other roles so is not on the ward nursing, the same with the sister, coupled with a freeze on recruiting new staff, maternity and paternity leave and then holidays, and it means they are under staffed everyday, which adds to the stress.
Another ward last year recruited lots of HCA's instead of nurses, due to budget constraints but this meant the few nurses left were run ragged, the ward manager complaint and then resigned.

What would help to pay for more staffing and training of the staff would be better use of money within the NHS. Tesco sell a lot of paracetamol each year but the NHS use loads more (i'm guessing) so why does it cost the NHS more than they could buy them from Tesco? The same with other drugs, some life changing drugs are not given to patients due to cost. In my view if the government pumped a load of money in to the NHS for drug research and production they could save a lot of money in the long term and also sell drugs to other countries. Alternatively look at the supply chain to make savings.

One thing that irks me are health professionals complaining about drunks/drunk injuries and 'self inflicted'* (i.e sports injuries).

If you drastically reduced the above you wouldn't need half the hospital staff so you could make vast swathes redundant. The resulting staff would still have to work at the same tempo.

'Drunks' still pay taxes through the vat etc etc and spend in the pubs that got them drunk.

*I was told this by the Triage nurse and would be prioritised accordingly. It became a 5hour wait, I got up and left at the 5th hour walking out of an empty waiting room on a Sunday morning past the wall to wall Solicitor/got a claim signs that they had plastered in A&E.

Funnily enough a couple of years later they had the A&E shut there.

I had a very similar story to the article last year and almost died. In my personal experience the problem was with my initial contact with the GPs.

I very, very rarely go to the doctors (last time was probably 10 years ago). So when I called to make an appointment because I was feeling unwell it was because I was REALLY feeling unwell. My surgery had just implemented a a telephone triage service and I was told over the phone my a doctor that I had a virus and did not need to see a doctor.

The next day I collapsed with a suspected heart attack. The paramedics took almost an hour to stabilise me before I could be moved and then rushed to the cardiac intensive care. After an angio (sp?) it showed my heart was not working correctly (no heart attack) along with most other organs. Eventually sepsis was diagnosed and I was transferred to intensive car and pumped full of 4 different IV antibiotics for days.

Once in the hand of the paramedics/hospital I could not fault the NHS, they were brilliant. My problem was breaking down the GP barrier, that is where the problem seems to lie. GPs tend to be regarded as a joke now, the first appointment (if you can get one) is a waste of time as you usually get 'see how you are in a week's time' line.

'Drunks' still pay taxes through the vat etc etc and spend in the pubs that got them drunk.

It's every man's patriotic duty to get drunk and help the Chancellor of the Exchequer clear the nation's deficit.

Well considering we pay c£7 tax on a bottle of spirits, c46p per pint and c£2 per bottle of wine.

Then there are the fags that you need to accompany..

One thing that irks me are health professionals complaining about drunks/drunk injuries and 'self inflicted'* (i.e sports injuries).

If you drastically reduced the above you wouldn't need half the hospital staff so you could make vast swathes redundant. The resulting staff would still have to work at the same tempo.

Bollocks. There's more than enough workload to keep us busy, we complain about drunks putting unnecessary pressure on those resources. I've never heard anyone ever complain about someone being injured through a sport.

I had a very similar story to the article last year and almost died. In my personal experience the problem was with my initial contact with the GPs.

I'm not criticising you but did you look at other pathways of care when you felt so unwell but couldn't get a GP appointment? GP appointment issues are something else that is leading to pressure on other areas of the NHS but there are Walk in Centre, Out of Hours Dr's and Minor Injuries Units available if your feeling Really unwell.

I've never heard anyone ever complain about someone being injured through a sport.

It's not a sacred cow never to be criticised, the NHS must open to comment and criticism when things go wrong, that's part of how the service will improve. I'd not like to be without it but I'd like to be better as I'm sure you all would.

The founding values are indeed the best bit, but behind that the picture is mixed and the NHS shouldn't be immune from scrutiny and criticism.

i m staggered that none of these killers are held accountable,

i can also recognise negligence/incompetance

It was a slip of an admission by the Triage nurse and a Rugby-playing Pyshio that I saw said he'd had this too through his rugby injuries. contact sport etc is treated as self-inflicted and not 'accidents'.

They were talking shite.

Even drunks who have had an accident I don't mind, what I don't like it those have drank so much they have become unconscious or they're 'friends' ringing as "they're not normally like this, she can take her drink ya nah. She must have been spiked"

What ever happened to taking your mate home when they have a whitey?

Frank and open discussion of individual cases with poor and avoidable outcomes is a very useful thing, but an entrenched blame culture tends to make this almost impossible - staff won't admit their own personal mistakes or misjudgements for fear of the kind of response demonstrated in the OP.

Putting aside people with a pattern of poor practice, we have to accept that in any organisation with a human component, particularly healthcare, very occasional mistakes will be made by even the most skilled individuals.

Perversely, though, if we demonise any NHS worker who makes an error, the closed, risk-averse culture this produces could even make the situation worse.

however when i read of and personally experienced catastrophic individual bad practice

Is it bad practice, or a mistake? There is a difference.

did you look at other pathways of care when you felt so unwell but couldn't get a GP appointment?

I'm not sure many people KNOW the pathways. We don't get trained on how to use the NHS, unfortunately.. I suspect lives would be saved if we were.

Of course, it doesn't help that it's different everywhere you go, which is a bit daft.

I'm not sure many people KNOW the pathways. We don't get trained on how to use the NHS, unfortunately.. I suspect lives would be saved if we were.

Of course, it doesn't help that it's different everywhere you go, which is a bit daft.

Oh I agree with all that very much.

One thing that irks me are health professionals complaining about drunks/drunk injuries and 'self inflicted'* (i.e sports injuries).

If you drastically reduced the above you wouldn't need half the hospital staff so you could make vast swathes redundant. The resulting staff would still have to work at the same tempo.

Drac - Moderator

I'm not criticising you but did you look at other pathways of care when you felt so unwell but couldn't get a GP appointment? GP appointment issues are something else that is leading to pressure on other areas of the NHS but there are Walk in Centre, Out of Hours Dr's and Minor Injuries Units available if your feeling Really unwell.

I dialled on the Saturday morning having spent most of Friday night in extreme pain and discomfort. That service was good and they got me an appointment at my local walk-in-centre within an hour.

When I saw the GP there he told me I had a virus. I told him that I had really bad pain in my neck and arm and he said it was totally unrelated and did not even look at it.

The infection started congregating in my neck and I ended up with bad cellulitis in my neck (which was initially diagnosed as necrotising fasciitis, which was pretty bloody scarey).

So - two GPs, and the same (incorrect) diagnosis. One over the phone and a second face-to-face without investigating all of my symptoms.

Cheers for the update.

So - two GPs, and the same (incorrect) diagnosis. One over the phone and a second face-to-face without investigating all of my symptoms.

That does sound worrying.

Edited. Not entirely sure it's correct to discuss work issues on a public forum, even non specific ones.

Really who's running the share shop? Where do you register for shares?

The current reforms are a sleight-of-hand - essentially, "The NHS" is being turned into a kitemark brand, in turn displayed (prominently) by the private companies* who are being given the contracts. By a [i]strange[/i] coincidence, the ongoing fragmentation of services is leading to increased pressure on A&E. As was widely predicted, the reforms are a complete mess.

It's one thing to compare the NHS to (better-invested) social-insurance systems - it's quite another to justify what is quite clearly a yard-sale.

(*Spire are the epitome of the private sector cherrypickin' the easy stuff - they would be [i]screwed[/i] without NHS acute capacity & workforce training. See also Circle, Care_UK etc.)

I often wonder whether Hora tries to be this inept or if it just comes naturally to him

Junkyard - lazarus
I often wonder whether Hora tries to be this inept or if it just comes naturally to him

Once in the hand of the paramedics/hospital I could not fault the NHS, they were brilliant. My problem was breaking down the GP barrier, that is where the problem seems to lie. GPs tend to be regarded as a joke now, the first appointment (if you can get one) is a waste of time as you usually get 'see how you are in a week's time' line.

Sadly the family doctor doesn't seem to be held in the same regard by the public as a few decades ago. The "see how you are in a week" happens because GPs know that 95% of patients WILL feel better in a few days. This will always be a problem area for the NHS.

The current reforms are a sleight-of-hand - essentially,

This.

A massive shift from public to private is happening behind that NHS banner. They're calling it 'reform'. It's privatisation.

[img] [/img]

[i]"Working in partnership...."[/i]

I fugging hate that phrase. 👿

I often wonder whether Hora tries to be this inept or if it just comes naturally to him

You are the Union rep. Not me, go and hand some pamphlets out you plastic-communist.

Privatisation behind closed doors?

Or partly to avoid the public sector pensions liabilities later on if these people were directly employed.

hora - Member
you plastic-communist.

What do you mean by that?

The purpose of the NCEPOD review I'm involved in is to try and quantify this problem and find out why people die of sepsis and where to focus our attention. Anecdotally, there are problems throughout the chain of care but more has been done further along it (sepsis 6 for example).

One of the problems of GP is that the haystack keeps growing, though there aren't many more needles to find. With sepsis specifically, it's almost indistinguishable from minor illnesses during its early stages in most cases. There are no definitive tests or scoring systems to detect it (though there are some promising innovations). In retrospect, it was always sepsis...

(Additionally, anecdotally, many patients with sepsis say their GP told them they had a virus. There's interesting early research suggesting that is the case, that the virus somehow enables a bacterial infection and then the overwhelming reaction to it- that is sepsis.)

What do you mean by that?

Guess? Take a guess? engage 1st gear and lift the clutch slowly?

Oh this looks a bit aggro will go else where.

I wouldn't like to guess at what you meant, please explain.

No, take the handbrake off. You forgot that. Oh forget it. You can't even engage brain and get going.

You can't even engage brain and get going.

Can I just chip in here to say that I'm quite clever and have no idea what "plastic communist" means?

Look up plastic-Manc, apply that to Communist.

So Junkyard's never been to Trier or Red Square then?

Pigface - Member

Oh this looks a bit aggro will go else where.

Hardly surprising is it when someone posts something like this :

Junkyard - lazarus

I often wonder whether Hora tries to be this inept or if it just comes naturally to him

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

I've always been impressed by Hora's ability to take the banter directed at him, and he gets plenty of it, but it would appear that even he gets pissed off with posts which are no more than snidey personal attacks.

ernie again i breathe a sigh of relieve that you dont do the personal and not across threads ...you are an example I can but aspire to 😉
Big hitting days are here again etc.
FWIW you ability to do what you are moaning about is a truly an impressive skill. Genuine compliment BTW you are very skilled with the words and the sarcasm.

Thankfully Hora has not stopped to insults either, and not just me*, eh ernie nor the comment after mine ...its just me doing it.
Anyone would think you had a beef with me # paranoia 😕

* I am not offended by Hora's comment FWIW.

I can give back as good as I can take. I've met Junky and its firmly male banter (towel-whippin etc).

With some of the other faceless ones though its a bit weird.

That is what he thinks really I hate his guts 😉

Ok can we please stop the bickering so I don't have to close the thread and send out the warnings to the usual suspects. Ta

Oky doke

Drac we need a moshpit... Its all 'Top Gun' in here sometimes 😀

[img] [/img]

...stop the bickering

Indeed, let's get on with discussing the thread's title/subject : how many more have to die at the hands of the NHS?

btw my previous post was directed at Pigface, although he's apparently gone.