How do you navigate in the hills?

All the above I agree with - todays technology is wonderful, paper backup and proper compass still a Good Thing the further you are from simple landscape and people.

BUT

The one thing rarely mentioned is the emergency. The hours of cold, wet waiting, making calls or using data / screen on time. Batteries die. Devices drown.

For me there is a strength in having two totally different technologies / resources in my bag and skill set. And if there is one thing I know from all the years in the hills, is that no-one expects the sh*t to go down, and we are often left wanting when the sh*t overwhelms us in an incident...

The one thing rarely mentioned is the emergency.

 I suppose I’ve got some thresholds that I’d struggle to quantify.

I completely agree with that sentiment , I think we probs all have those, and it's knowing that point for you at which it becomes sensible to have redundancy if it all goes to shit. I'm realistic enough to know that could happen anywhere, but its extremely unlikely, given my experience.  I'm happy with automated routes from some places, given that I know how they generate them, but if I do that, I always have an alternate plan if it doesn't work.

@convert I used to carry my Spot for those 3-4 hour XC rides too. The risks are obviously greater in Winter, with darkness, cold, the (im)probability of someone passing by etc. At some point, I just stopped doing so. Maybe I was getting more familiar with my new surrounding, but more often riding with pals, the increasing subscription cost and the increased availability of 4G all played a part too. I guess I've also been doing more running in winter (especially since getting studded shoes) so the amount of time I've felt at risk has significantly decreased. Your post has given me pause for thought though, thinking I might reconsider the value of a subscription of some sort. I might need to dig out a calculator and compare my Spot vs an Inreach.

As regards generated routes, I regard those in the same way as a gpx file I've downloaded or been given. I'd never set out to follow it without analyzing it on a map first. Only that way can I consider possible obstacles, inclines, surface types etc. I'm always a little dismayed when I see folk asking for a gpx file for what appears to me to be a simple route as I think it's further cementing that lack of map reading knowledge and skill.

I had an interesting experience with OS maps on my phone. We were out for a walk in the Lakes, in an area I was very familiar with. The phone app persistantly showed us up to 1Km away from where we were. It put me of using a phone for any sort of critical navigation. Normally I use a mixture of a real map, GPS with OS maps and a Garmin 840 for some gravel rides.

The down side of paper maps are that we have a large collection some of which are quite old. The old map are missing some useful information particularly as new cycling routes. I would probably never just use somebody elses gpx file. I like to plot the routes first and then down load to other devices.

I rarely do any sort of outdoor activity without a paper map and compass.

Paper map if I do not know where I want to go or want to explore an area this is mainly running.

Watch/gps if I am doing a set specific route with a map as back up, this is mainly biking.

I did the dragons back a few years ago and started with using watch/gps but eventually turned to using map/compass as I preferred the longer sight line of what is coming up, the context around where you are and to be more fully immersed in the endeavour as I found just watching a dot move across a line was pretty boring.

My background was doing lots of navigation events so its always just been my preference to fondle maps

I have an personal locator beacon for seakayaking and you are now allowed to use them in the UK on land. When you activate it is sends a signal to a satalite and transmits your location. If I am out in Scotland in remote areas I put this in my pack. I have never had to use it, it's subscription free and you just need to replace the batteries every 7 years?

+ 1 on thinking about managing risk and what if scenarios.
+1 on I can never follow a route without looking 'big picture' as to where it goes. In old navigation this is journey storying, landscape layout, waymarkers and handrailing etc
+1 on I would struggle to express some of of my thresholds. I'm often find myself being the one who carries the bag of a waterproof and emergency gear, even on some less obvious places (took it on Aran Islands last week in Ireland...) yet will daunder up the Ochils in an evening with nowt but the clothes I'm stood in...

The phone app persistantly showed us up to 1Km away from where we were.

How could that happen?

I have worked with GPS for around 30 years and I have never seen that?

I am a bit of a GPS geek and have about 6 different units.

As long as they have a clear view of the sky, they only need 3 satellites to get a 2d fix, 4 for 3d.

Just had a look on my phone and there are 12 US above me now and a total of about 40 with the systems.

@bruce what plb? I looked a while ago and they were all subscription and never quite justify it for the amount of use it would get.

For biking various apps on my phone with map as back up.

For walking map with phone as back up .

Relatively new to canoeing so either no real navigation required òr go with a much more experienced person

I don`t think you can beat the Garmin Edge range when riding new routes or in the hills.

Never once have I felt in the slightest lost whilst in the hills local, or when riding abroad. Im surprised everyone here isnt the same or similar. It seems a million years ago that a person would need to take paper maps etc.

The mobile phone is another good option, but not as robust as a Garmin Edge of course.

@ajf

I use a McMurdo Fast Find.

https://www.marinesuperstore.com/safety-beacons/plb-ais/mcmurdo-fastfind-220-gps-plb

There are other options like the Rescue Me PLB1

https://www.marinesuperstore.com/safety-beacons/plb-ais/ocean-signal-rescueme-plb1-with-gps-plb

You have to register the device with the Coastguard.

@gobuchul

I don't know how it happened but it did we were in woods between Grassmere and Rydal. the phone was showing us near the carpark in Grassmere, as we walked to the caves near Rydal our position didn't change. My Garmin GPS 62 shown us in the correct place.

Phone fault? OS maps bug?

Sounds like a weak signal from the tree cover.

The Garmin probably had a better antenna.

Were you going in and out of the app on the phone? Probably a bit of a "cold start" problem?

Was it an older iPhone? More recent chipsets are much quicker at establishing an initial position.

I have an old Magellan handheld from about 1998 and it takes about 5 minutes to get it's 1st fix from cold.

will daunder up the Ochils in an evening with nowt but the clothes I’m stood in

Thats a whole new thread! I have done the same myself hundreds of times. I hate carrying anything if the truth be told and if I do then I use a waist pack. In my younger days I would have thought nothing of running for a few hours in just fells shoes, shorts and vest. Never done it in areas that I didnt know well and always took the precaution of informing of my route, times etc but I was very fit then. I understand the risks but I do think there is sometimes what I call an "overgotexification" of the hills and this puts lots of people off exploring and building the experience and self reliance that is key to being independent in the outdoors. If you dont have £00's worth of gear then "its not for the likes of you" I used to go camping as a teenager and we simply explored and had fun, probably helped by the fact that most of my mates were distance runners so had a high degree of fitness. I do think a lot of kids feel intimidated by the hills, that was never my perception.

Samsung s10e.

I have had problems with Google maps as well so it might be a phone problem.

I understand the risks but I do think there is sometimes what I call an “overgotexification” of the hills and this puts lots of people off exploring

Yep, recognised myself doing this very thing to a group of teenagers who asked me if I had any spare food/water a few weeks back. I was about to give them some 'advice' about coming out prepared, but then I remembered the first trip I did that got me hooked on MTB, and how I was very nearly heat-stroked, and I just gave them my emergency mars bars, and half my water and pointed them in the right direction for the café that they were looking for.

I'll alway want to see the route on (electronic) map before setting off to follow it. Whether thats a downloaded route, or if its simple I won't have a recorded line, just remember the basic directions. A day out in the lakes or peak on legal ROW at least can probably be summed up in about 20 directions/turns.

For a simple route, I'll have the "map" including basic topography, rivers, wooded/open memorised.

For a longer more complex route, I'll know the basics of it but certainly not enough to do it from memory.

When I look at my phone or other navigation device, its primary purpose for me is to tell me where I am and how far along the route I am. More important when biking as speed varies so much. Therefore the phone with its blue dot is ideal, gives me the info I require in seconds, no taking bearings or timing your pace or anything.

If I know in my head that I need to cross the bridge, climb halfway up the hill, then turn right - I can see I'm on the right track, and I'm 3/4 of the way to the turning.

I always carry a map and compass, even on walks I have done before, but mostly use Memory Map on my phone although I just  every now and again rather than constantly checking. I was given MM 1:25000 for the whole UK as a present and downloaded the whole dataset onto the phone so it doesn’t rely on a mobile signal, just GPS. I like to use maps before a walk as I find it much easier to orient myself and work out a route on paper.

Maps.  The idea of following somebody else's route and losing a whole dimension is not appealing. Usually now I will have a printout to hand with the full sheet as backup.  GPX files are for recording your wanderings not predetermining them.  Orienteering background, so map memory skills are pretty sharp.

“overgotexification”

Garmin and Outdoor Active on my iphone as back-up.

I'm rarely far off the beaten track though.

I always have an idea of what my escape route would be.

Planning on doing some further afield riding next year, not sure what my plan for that will be.

Rainy phone screen on a half-loaded google maps with 8% battery left; that either crashes when I try and zoom in, or the raindrops make my phone accidentally call people from work.

Eventually, watching a downloaded video from a hiking vlogger in roughly the same region from 2021 and desperately seeing if I recognise anything.

And after that, pure guesswork based on vibes and which way the lichen is growing, I think I learned that in a bushcraft class at a music festival once.

Rainy phone screen on a half-loaded google maps with 8% battery left; that either crashes when I try and zoom in

Paper maps are ace but a bit of a faff to open/close/use.

On the bike I tend to use a garmin with a phone with osmaps. If it was a really big day out or I think I'd need to do rerouting I might take a paper map in my bag

On foot I tend to use a paper map in a map case, just because it's nice. But I often have a garmin attached to my bag and running as a back up, with my phone with osmaps just in case

I get far more appreciation of where I am with a paper map, but on the bike I'm generally just cracking on so digital versions are easier and quicker

Scale and size of the hills and what you plan to do adds a heck of a lot of context to this, and how much local knowledge you have - like most people there are plenty of places in the hills where I know the geography well enough that nothing is required.

There are places the only thing I need is a climbing guidebook all the way up to needing a 50,000 map - I love the certainty of electronic devices, especially in big woody hillseides, but sometimes the context from a paper map is invaluable

Map & compass with a foretrex as a check nav. I'd be sad if/when it dies, many memories connected to that little toy.

I mostly just like to keep in touch with an old but fundamental skill. Good to know I could still find my arse in a hill if guccier tech shits the bed.

That and I can't justify the expense of fancier devices for the frequency I need it.

OS maps give me genuine joy to use and I have 70+ Explorer and around half that number of Landrangers. Any planning for UK based holiday I take starts by spreading the map out and looking for likely points of interest (and planning days out) - picnic spots, walks, nature reserves, viewpoints, driving detours, potential beaches. I'd much rather do that than just putting "top 10 things to do in Pembrokeshire" into Google.

Walking I'm exclusively map and compass (with a basic grid reference app as a backup if/when I get lost). Provides so much more context to where you are/where you've been/where you're going.

On a bike it's trickier, the speed you're going at means stopping every few minutes to pull out a map isn't ideal (and I've never worked out a good way of setting up a map in the cockpit or having it otherwise readily accessible). Can you get OS Explorer maps on any GPS devices these days or does it have to be a phone? I've never bothered with a subscription, it never appealed that much, but with the right setup it might be best. Road cycling of course you have plenty of GPS options

How could that happen?

I have worked with GPS for around 30 years and I have never seen that?

I am a bit of a GPS geek and have about 6 different units.

Given they still had selective availability switched on 30 years ago, you would have always seen a consistent error in the location every time you used it up until May 2000.

As for how it could happen, phone got confused and needed a reboot, someone carrying a portable GPS jammer / spoofer, accidental jamming from military exercise.

GPS is very fragile (compared to modern systems which can be jammed, but not spoofed).

For walking map and compass. I enjoy using them and the large area view the give. Having said that in wild conditions I have resorted to OS App though using it continuously with GPS on savages the battery. In country with few landmarks and paths I will often upload a GPX to my bike computer as a backup and it has come in handy. Battery life far superior to an iPhone with GPS on and leaves the phone for more important eventualities.

On the bike - bike computer.

I have resorted to OS App though using it continuously with GPS on savages the battery.

I stick my phone on flight mode and just use the OS App as and when needed and find it pretty light on battery use. I normally drain far more taking dozens of photos.

Iphone with OS App, double map and compass when I'm guiding.  I find the app doesn't help with tricky nav (which way to take a group off a ridge in the clag) so I still use map and compass a surprising amount.

I have had problems with Google maps as well so it might be a phone problem.

Some androids had an issue defaulting to the less accurate location (based of wifi etc).

Cant remember the exact details as several years back  but I had a similar massive inaccuracy on it and after some googling found a setting to switch.

I tend to find two type of map readers, the analytical who think in bearings, steps, pacing and that side of it, and those who are “Landscape” navigators, who can look at a map and see how it relates to the landscape around them

I’m Landscape, I did Geography at school, and living in North Wiltshire, with family on my dad’s side from out near Castle Combe, I was very familiar with a landscape that was anything but flat, and school taught me about the effects of glaciation, old meandering rivers cause oxbow lakes*, etc, so OS Maps have always been a fascination for me. My dad had a bunch of old OS maps around, so I learned early on how to relate what is on the paper to what the reality is around me on the ground.

I don’t do any real long distance walking in remote places, so navigating in the middle of flow country would never be an issue, the various mapping and navigation apps on my phone are more than adequate, on a just-in-case basis, like coming across an accident scene and being able to give proper map references.

My favourite is U.K. Map, which has 1:50k and 1:25k, as well as 1:10k with StreetMap footpaths marked; I’ve got several gigs of maps downloaded into it, and I get regular updates of map tiles in the app, and I’ll add new tiles if I’m going on holiday to get a good idea of what local conditions on the ground might be like.

I’m too old, and I no longer have the knees for a ten-twenty mile yomp across open moorland!

I tend to find two type of map readers, the analytical who think in bearings, steps, pacing and that side of it, and those who are “Landscape” navigators, who can look at a map and see how it relates to the landscape around them

Fair. Anyone who has navigated in more 'austere' environments will know how utterly spoilt we are by OS in the uk which does make 'landscape' a realistic prospect. All hail OS!

Check maps and plan before I go, sometimes bring a printout with me.

Rely mostly on my phone with memory-map offline maps. My wife has same on her phone. I have a battery pack and an older etrex with talky toaster maps installed on it. Also bring spare batteries for it.

Oh and offline maps loaded onto my watch.

My instinct is to say "map and compass", as I'm a proper map lover. There's another reason I want to say that, which I'll come to at the end.

I can't say it though, not honestly. A huge amount of my nav is actually done using a phone app. Always, though, I have looked at the bigger landscape on a bigger screen or, preferably, with a map laid out on floor or bed and pored over. I don't use the app to follow a pre-loaded route, its simply a map in my pocket that also has the ability to pinpoint my location. And that is a real pleasure to me, having a map of the UK (or other countries) in my pocket is a miracle of modern technology.

In the mountains or wild country, I always have a "proper" map with me. I get this out frequently, but normally only when we stop properly for a break. Its then that the other aspect of maps comes in to play; maps are not just a means of navigation from A to B, they're a tool to enhance your understanding and enjoyment of a whole landscape. This is where a full size map can't be beaten, I can lose myself just crossing that landscape in my mind, exploring different places. Often this is mostly before a trip, but whenever I stop for a break, the map is out so I can look at the bigger picture. Maybe something in the distance will catch my eye, and the map will tell me all about it, a lot harder to do on the phone screen. Maybe something I see on the map will make me detour to have a look.

I also play games with myself; know where I am on the map before the phone catches up and puts a dot on my screen. Its rare that it beats me unless I've only moved a short distance since the last glance. I am guilty of not practicing proper navigation that frequently, though the sheer amount of time (every day) I spend looking at maps does no harm.
"I tend to find two type of map readers, the analytical who think in bearings, steps, pacing and that side of it, and those who are “Landscape” navigators, who can look at a map and see how it relates to the landscape around them, they are the ones who walk with their heads up, the best navigators combine the two." 
I'm definitely a Landscape navigator normally, and sometimes have to force myself to slow down and use analytical methods. The latter are so important if you ever only have map and compass to work with, and the skills do become stale.

What I'm trying to say with all the above is that maps are so much more than just a navigation tool to me. The process of planning at home, through to being out there on a hilltop or wilderness lake, is enhanced hugely by maps. I just get so much joy out of using them, and still feel like a cheat if I just use the phone. I was recently in Sweden, canoeing a route through an intricate terrain of glacially formed lakes, linked by many portages, fortunately mostly fairly short, and surrounded by eroded rocky mountains. Though I had the app, I far preferred to have the open map out in front of me in the canoe, as in this unknown, magnificent, landscape it told me so much more than just glancing at the phone to check out location and direction and I loved navigating to hidden portages using a compass bearing.

Day to day, though, I use that app. Apologies to my map-loving soul. My work takes me all over the place, and I've always got that map in my pocket. Here you'll have to trust me on what I've been saying, as the other reason I wanted to say just "map and compass" is that I might just work for a certain National Mapping organisation in the bit involving paper maps. I joined them, relatively recently in my career, because of all I've said above, I'm not saying it because of who I now work for. Honest guv. The reality is that everything works best together; there is a place for paper, a place for stand-alone GPS, a place for phone use, but a combination of the lot is the way forward. I just think a large map offers so much more pleasure than just a small screen. Of course, I've been caught out by tech failing, so would always have a back up, but whether that is a bought map, paper printout or other tech doesn't matter as much if you've thought it through properly.

Of course, the other point is to make sure you know how to use whatever method you choose well, when the going gets tough, and that you can also confidently use your backup method, not just wing it when you're already out on a limb.

how utterly spoilt we are by OS in the uk

I only use Harveys now. Find them easier to read. Also mostly carry the large area one of the lakes as I know it quite well, unless its an area I have not visited much and I have detailed maps for each. On my phone I use the OS app.

OS maps give me genuine joy to use

Interesting. I hate paper maps* they're too big, too much flapping about, the bit you want is never a convenient fold, or is in a teeny corner, or you need to bring two with you becasue OS decided that "Folks will never walk along that really obvious path, so lets cut the map here" - I swear they must have a team of folks dedicated to just ****ing with my day. Add to that the speed of bikes and it's about as useless a device for navigating that you could devise.

*at home I use them all the time, spread out on the dining table with a cup of coffee planning a trip or route is one of my very favourite things. But I'll still plot it on the laptop once I've worked it out

Anyone who has navigated in more ‘austere’ environments will know how utterly spoilt we are by OS in the uk which does make ‘landscape’ a realistic prospect. All hail OS!

Totally this!

Mixture for me-use gps and pre marked route for bikepacking. Memory map on phone as a back up. If running or walking though, I’ll always use a paper map, probably a hangover from too many LAMMs, OMMs and SLMMs! Is nice to be able to see a bit more broadly than the km either side of your route too.

Let's be frank and honest, the real reason Colin, Matt, myself and others carry paper maps is that we're scared shitless of having to be rescued for some reason and then having MRT rip the piss out of us for not having a proper paper map.

LOOK AT THESE IDIOTS...

Chris Bonnington says " I'd never go into the mountains without stout crampons, boots, beard and a proper map and a stern expression"