At some point, as with all conflicts, the Israeli's need to look for a solution that doesn't involve bombing the **** out of civilians, and making their lives a living hell, as it clearly isn't working.
We firebombed Dresden. We stopped when we felt we'd won.
And as for the achingly predictable over-reaction
@binners here we agree, the Palestinians who kidnapped and killed the three Israelis knew this would happen. I could imagine that they might think that any international condemnation of Isreal's response would be worth the price of the reaction.
EDIT: I would think this is partly why the White house is publically supporting Isreal. Send the message to the terrorists that the kidnap and murder has had the opposite effect to that desired.
We firebombed Dresden. We stopped when we felt we'd won.
The Nazi military-industrial complex being an obvious comparison with some desperate people lobbing some crude, home made missiles over the border.
Its sad but that attitude just typifies the sense of proportion so common to Israels apologists
I could imagine that they might think that any international condemnation of Isreal's response would be worth the price of the reaction.
Is anybody really that naive? The Israelis demonstrate on a daily basis that they couldn't give a flying **** about international condemnation. I think that any Palastinian action is probably down to utter desperation after living in what amounts to a prison for decades, with an inhumane and oppressive occupying force making living conditions increasingly unbearable
Ah Dresden, because that ended the war straight away...
@Lifer, I drew the comparison as civilians are always caught in conflict. 15,000 French civilains where killed by Allied bombing during the Normandy landings.
I am very much against military conflict, not least as that once it begins the consequences are very grave. I am not a believer in so called "surgical strikes", the reality of modern anti-terrorist warfare is much more messy.
@binners there was nothing particularly sophisticated about he kidnap and murders, its not about whether the weapons are crude.
Binners heres some more questions for you-
When the Iranian passenger jet with all onboard who was shot down by the US Navy. What happened to the Captain who ordered the strike? Was he arrested? locked up? How can a boeing passenger jet flying in ITS/Iranian airspace be a threat?
When the US killed countless civilians in Iraq why was it simply classed as collateral damage?
Why no prosecutions?
When Americas Drones kills countless ****stani civilians why aren't there prosecutions?
Finally, when the US targeted two cities full of civilians vaporising them in wilful genoside?
Then at the sametime putting the Nazi leadership on trial for crimes against humanity?
What about themselves murdering 100,000's of innocent civilians?
The thing is – theres no right and wrong. Just who is the strongest. The strongest overcomes the weaker side then twists the propaganda to make their cause look the best/righteous.
Its human nature- quell and suppress then PR yourself up. Tell the people you are better.
Sadly for Israel there are brave reporters etc telling the world the truth.
@Hungry monkey.
The reason no israelis have been killed so far is in large part thanks to the iron dome system that has intercepted the rockets that were heading to populated areas. There have been over 40 interceptions since the first of the current 160+ rockets were fired since yesterday. Israel has invested a huge amount of money in developing such systems to protect civilian populations
@binners. Is you're concept of proportionality one where a 'crude home made missile' lobbed over a border should be met with another crude home made missile fired back? - that would lead to a lot more casualties on the Palestinian side then is currently the case.
Incidentally, You can hear those 'crude home made missiles' go off as much as 5-10 km away from you. You probably wouldn't perceive them as so harmless if they were getting shot out of the sky above your home.
Sadly for Israel there are brave reporters etc telling the world the truth.
or what they think the world should hear...
Read if from the Israeli side...
its a constant bombardment !
Its a constant ineffectual bombardment
More Palestinians die every week than Israelis every year
Its the equivalent fo throwing rocks at a tank because it is crushing your home
theres no right and wrong
There is and you seem , as always, very confused
there are algorithms with greater insight and understanding that you show on here 😛
How to secure peace here is an intractable issue given the severe differences at work
you wont get peace by constantly having a bigger stick than your neighbour and repeatedly hitting them with it.
Neither side are paragons here but Israel is the only one who hold the tools to secure peace or to maintain a state of war/ terrorism where they have the most gins and the best weapons.
Killing people, bombing them, taking their land, encircling it, depriving them of water and trade will not make them want to live in peace with you.
It is also unjustifiable
you wont get peace by constantly having a bigger stick than your neighbour and repeatedly hitting them with it.
The Israelis would believe this tactic has worked with Egypt and Lebanon for example.
depriving them of water and trade
By the way the Egyptians have cut off the Gaza strip too, they where increasingly concerned with the amount of drugs and weapons being smuggled in through the tunnels.
Neither side are paragons here but Israel is the only one who hold the tools to secure peace or to maintain a state of war/ terrorism where they have the most gins and the best weapons.
I agree with your first comment, there are extremists on both sides. The Palestinians could opt to live in peace, most also have the ability to move freely in the region and settle elsewhere. I say most as the more extremist elements are not welcome elsewhere. It's not just Israel which holds the key to peace.
Send the message to the terrorists that the kidnap and murder has had the opposite effect to that desired.
Are you talking about the kidnap and murder of that Palestinian boy by Israeli extremists? You know, the one who was burned alive?
It's a simple fact that Israel are the main aggressors here and have killed overwhelmingly more than the other side. Ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
There is and you seem , as always, very confused
I'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
I dont agree with bombing innocent people but as said before Hamas hide themselves where innocent people are...
@grum, there are extremists on both sides as I said. As I also posted the murder and kidnap was designed to generate a conflict.
@grum, there are extremists on both sides as I said. As I also posted the murder and kidnap was designed to generate a conflict.
Strangely you only seem to want to condemn them on one side while justifying any actions by the other.
I'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
A) bollocks
B) maybe they are the bad guys. Look at casualty figures for each side.
most also have the ability to move freely in the region and settle elsewhere
Most Israelis were still born elsewhere and most of the people you suggest can leave were born there...odd solution tbh. What principle are you using here? Why TF should they leave their land - in reality it iwhy should you condone them being driven out and off their land?
It's not just Israel which holds the key to peace
Of course not but if someone beats you in a fight and then steals your house they may need to make considerable effort to appease you and you may be justified in being cross at this. repeatedly hitting you when you live in a hovel next door is not likely to work.
Its a state created by force depriving folk of land and their country they need to make considerable effort to build the peace rather than sustaining the war
I agree the rejection of the two state solution and some denying Israel has a right to exist is also a barrier[ understatement there eh] but they are unlikely to change their mind whilst being treated like this.
There is and you seem , as always, very confused
I'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
I quoted Hora and replied to him and you replied
i think you really are confused 😉
The casualty figures reflect the fact that Israel cares a lot more about its civilian population than Hamas does about its own. You can be sure that if Hamas were fighting Hizbullah the casualty figures would be higher on both sides, as is evidenced by the Hizbullah/Isis fight in Lebanon, where casualty figures are completely off the scale.
Palestinians who kidnapped and killed the three Israelis
@jambalaya...and you know this for a fact do you? as far as i know it was reported that the 3 israelis were taken form and found in israeli occupied land (occupied as in stolen illegally from the palestinians...but that a different point).
my understanding has always been that security is so strict is is near impossible for palestinians to enter these areas...so how the 3 boys were kidnapped , killed then dumped without the IDF knowing about it is a bit suspicious.
i've always believed that this was a false flag right from the very beginning, and was designed by the israeli government as an excuse to attack the palestinian government...the innocent palestinian men, women and children who die in the crossfire are merely collateral damage and irrelevant to the israelis.
also the boys were so innocent (as the isreali press liked to point out) that one of the boys was an active member of the junior IDF...a group which routinely carries out the kidnap/detainment and beating/torture of young palestinian youths...
We can argue all day about who is right and who is wrong, simple fact is the israelis control the palestinian destiny and just about every other aspect of their civilisation. Under those circumstances Israel should be forced to give palestinians equal rights within Isreal.
Isreal clearly wants the Gaza strip and the west bank to be part of Israel as their long term plan, well fair enough, have it, but give the palestinians citizenship and equal rights and equal voting rights.
Talk of a 2 state solution is nonsense. Israel has shown that it will not accept it.
Killing people, bombing them, taking their land, encircling it, depriving them of water and trade will not make them want to live in peace with you.
It is also unjustifiable
they are the modern day nazis...they think because it happened to them once that they have the right to carry out their pent up vengeance on those whos land was taken to give them a home...with the protection of the USA and to a lesser extent the British government they think they can do as they please and stick 2 fingers up at the whole world when their actions are questioned. question them too much and you become labelled as an anti-semite...they are forever playing the victim card.
in all honesty, and this is from a muslim point of view...there is no real issue with jewish people in general...it is the zionist government where the problem lies.
See my earlier post on my belief re the culprits for the kidnapping and their motives. It's quite incredible you are trying to suggest that the Isrealis would manufacture the murder of three Jewish boys to start a conflict. In truth if they want to they can stat one any time they like.
Every young Israeli does military service, so being a member of the junior IDF is perfectly normal. The boys where kidnapped returning from school.
@Junkyard - Israel was created by the Allies, they where given the land by them. The more recent expansion has come generally as a result of the Israeli's repelling attacks (eg from the Egyptians) and retaining the lands captured as a result. That's quite common in wars.
EDIT:
they think because it happened to them once
@gonzy that is a great over-simplification, the Jews have been the subject of persecution over 100's of years (monuments and memorials in the UK in York for example). After the war Jews where expelled from much of Arab North Africa and their lands, property and possessions confiscated. The Passover holiday celebrates their freedom from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians. These problems and divisions go back a long way.
Isreal clearly wants the Gaza strip and the west bank to be part of Israel as their long term plan, well fair enough, have it, but give the palestinians citizenship and equal rights and equal voting rights.
so if i come into your house and take it over will locking you in the cellar and making your life a complete misery before i say at some later date you can share the space with me but its now my house and i make all the rules/decisions...you'd be fine with that would you?
...thought not...
The casualty figures reflect the fact that Israel cares a lot more about its civilian population than Hamas does about its own.
The fact Israel kills more civilians than Hamas shows this?
You sure it does not show that Israel has the best weapons and does not give a shit about killing civilians?
TBH this shows how difficult the issue is
We are not directly involved and even here folk will blame Hamas for Israel killing civilians - I bet Al Quaeda blames the west for 9 11
I dont think Nazi comparisons are helpful tbh
I think it is a shocking indictment of ALL humanity that after centuries of oppression them selves that when given their own land they are prepared to do the same to people as what was done to them for centuries
Its shames all Humans and says something about us all 😥
The Zionists are never going to look for a peaceful solution while they can continue to illegally land grab, bulldoze and systematically exterminate the Palestinians.
What's the down side for them? Ineffective rocket attacks and international condemnation.
You just have to look at the maps from 5-10 years ago of the Gaza strip/West Bank and the encroachment of illegal settlements over that time. There's an obvious end game, call it a final solution if you will 😉
@scaled - I think your last comment should not be trivialised with a wink, it's rather more offensive than that
The casualty figures reflect the fact that Israel cares a lot more about its civilian population than Hamas does about its own.
'We kill far more people because we care more about protecting lives' 😕
@ jambalaya...i'm sorry but i dont accept that as there is no explanation of how the palestinians sneaked past the army checkpoints into the isreali occupied zones to kidnap them...drag them back across into palestinian controlled land to kill them before dumping their bodies back on isreali "land"...over the last few months there has been a complete clamp down on palestinian movement into isreali controlled territory...i.e. every palestinian has been kept behind the wall
jambalaya - Member
@scaled - I think your last comment should not be trivialised with a wink, it's rather more offensive than that
Call a spade a spade and a genocide a genocide, mate...
It's disingenuous as hell to pick a point in time and pretend that that's a reason for the latest escalation in hostilities from the Israelis.jambalaya - Member
genuine question - has this been proved that palestinians did this yet?Absolutely no doubt in the minds of most people, including me. There is no credible alternative theory. Most importantly no doubt in the minds of the Israeli government, police and military.
The Palestinians could opt to live in peace, most also have the ability to move freely in the region and settle elsewhere.
@jambalaya - everything you have written on this thread is the most complete and utter bollocks, but this really illustrates the chasm between your views and reality. Where do you think a Palestinian resident of Gaza could or should go? How can they live in peace when their land and livelihood is destroyed a little more every day, with regular attacks by a well armed and vicious adversary, who sees it appropriate to attack civilians with white phosphorus, to shoot dead small children and to smear shit on school walls? Your attempts to justify the unjustifiable are obscene.
'They could go and live elsewhere' is a particularly unpleasant argument. I suppose Jews in Nazi Germany could just go and live elsewhere too so what was the problem?
It's disingenuous as hell to pick a point in time and pretend that that's a reason for the latest escalation in hostilities from the Israelis.
Especially when you're arguing that the killing of the Israelis justifies Israel's response, but Israel's killing of (vastly more) civilians and a similar kidnap and murder of a Palestinian boy in no way justifies Hamas' response. 😕
@ jambalaya
care to explain this?
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-lawmakers-call-genocide-palestinians-gets-thousands-facebook-likes
the lawmaker in question is Ayelet Shaked and she is a senior figure in the Habeyit Hayehudi (Jewish Home) party that is part of Israel’s ruling coalition.
the life of a palestinian means nothing to these people and killing them in any way possible is encouraged.
look at the army captian who was recently put on trial for the murder of the 13 year old school girl because she got too close to a check point. their justification in this case was that the school bag she was carrying could have been a bomb..she got scared and dropped the bag and they shot the bag to confirm it wasnt a bomb...then they shot her as she was running away...the captain then went to confirm the kill by emptying his entire magazine into her body...he was let off by a military court as having done nothing wrong
Actually @scaled. If you looked at a map of Gaza 10 years 5/10 years ago, you would find that Israel occupied parts of it. They've since dismantled the settlements in Gaza and moved out. Did it help bring peace? - Hamas are now more aggressive than ever.
@ DrJ...i think Jambalaya has been reading into the zionist propaganda too much and now believes that even when the israeli brutality is completely disproportionate they are still the victims...a bit of a zionist sympathiser
"after cutting off water, electricity, commercial trade and stealing his land he threw a stone at one of our tanks so we blew up his neighbourhood, flattened his house and killed a few of his family members as punishment....but were are still the victim"...this isnt an actual quote but you get my drift
I worked on a kibbutz and as my Brother in Law was Israeli have been there a few times. When I was there the PLO was in Lebanon and most of the time it was quiet. A few hot heads on either side but mostly people enjoying living in the sun.
I was quite pro Israel then, my kibbutz got shot at one night.
When the suicide bombings happened in the 90's was when the Israeli attitude changed. After that and American war on terror then they started down the path they are on now.
A friend of mine called James Miller and what happened really changed my mind about what they are doing. Hamas are not the nicest people in the world but the way Israel is treating Palestinian civillians is inexcusable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)
The UN, human rights watch and I imagine, most palestinians living in the Gaza strip still consider them an occupying power
Actually @scaled. If you looked at a map of Gaza 10 years 5/10 years ago, you would find that Israel Occupied it. They've since dismantled the settlements in Gaza and moved out. Did it help bring peace? - Hamas are now more aggressive than ever.
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
I'm waiting for them to blow up the homes of the youths arrested for the murder of the Palestinian lad just now. I suspect I may be in for a long wait ...
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
And not just peace in Palestine. If the US had been even-handed in its treatment of the Palestinians, I suspect Al Qaeda would have trouble finding volunteers to stuff envelopes, let alone blow themselves up.
There is no credible alternative theory.
As I said the kidnap and murder was designed by the [s]Palestinians[/s] Israeli's to create a military conflict. The Isreali's have the more powerful military so the consequences are predictable.
FTFY. Much more credible this way.
When are they going to remove ALL of the illegal settlements, stop bulldozing homes and denying people water? Might be a start for achieving peace.
Israeli operation to as an excuse to 'overreact' and start an orchestrated chain of events leading to the occupation and eventual full Jewish settlement of both Gaza and the West Bank. There would then be no more houses to bulldoze or land to grab. I have no doubt Hamas would also create their own 'martyrs' if it was advantageous to their cause.
I suspect I may be in for a long wait
you would have a long wait for them to knock them unconscious then beta them senseless never mind do a [ illegal] "collective punishment" on their family.
Its a ****ing mess there and no mistake
Israeli solution is to permanently keep them on their knees with intermittent invading to kick the shit out of them when they are on their knees. it will never lead to peace though it may be maintained permanently
I'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
That's the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613
Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel - a military superpower - is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?
ransos - MemberI'm not confused the world is confused as always the media portrays the Israelis as the bad guys...whats new about that...
That's the opposite of the truth. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28222613
Hamas are firing ineffectual rockets killing no-one, and Israel - a military superpower - is using jet fighters to murder school children. Do you think the BBC headline is fair and balanced?
What should they do then ?
Murdering children...move them to a safe place...cant do that cos hamas hide out in the schools...fact
What should they do then ?
Negotiate a fair peace agreement. End of conflict. Simple.
