I know this Guy who said he could send them to kingdom come if we were interested, sometime around early November. 😉
Very few people actually get a say at the polls.
In my adult life I have lived in three constituencies, and voted in every general election for 4 different parties. Including the blue one.
Not once have I voted for the winning MP.
I agree with this wholeheartedly and have also never voted for the winning candidate. The system is broken and it's not in the two main parties interest to change it. I find that ironic living in Scotland as the Scottish PR-lite system is one of the only reasons the Tories haven't been completely wiped out up here. EVERYONE needs to feel that their voice is heard, the only fair way to govern is through consensus and compromise. Not majority rule. FPTP is wholly inadequate and inappropriate for a modern democracy. Until that changes we're stuck with the horror show down south. But I can't see many MP's thinking changing the system is a good idea...
This organisation is worth a look:
https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/
Alternatively, we do a Ripley and take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Join an opposition party. Actually join and pay them money. It's not a level playing field on the cash front as we know.
Join your local opposition party, drop leaflets, if you're so-minded join in with the door knocking.
Never say never, in two weeks our council may go majority labour after a thousand years of 'anything breathing with a blue rosette'.
Doing something is definitely better than nothing.
We need a winning team to challenge the Rot.
Can't believe It's taken so long for someone to say that. (unless I missed it, haven't fully read every post)
IF Corbyn hadn't been Labour leader back then I reckon Labour would've got in. Even my mate who's a life long Labour voter, Ex miner, union rep, Thatcher/Tory hater, didn't vote for Labour, 1st time in his life.
So yes, we need a winning, believable & honest party to challenge them. The 'honest' bit might be a problem though.
Our 3+ party system does not help. It should be a matter of vote Conservative or vote for a combined labour/liberal/green coalition. This seems to work for the Democrats in the USA.
Hmm help with er moving the barrels into the cellars of parliament 🙂
I think the next few harsh years will be hard for the them tbh, I suppose it’s going to be who’s got the best PR people that will swing it.
We really need a charismatic person, already well known an liked by the public to step up.
Complex problem, with many facets to address; the solution which most here and elsewhere think is the winner seems to be name calling and denigration of the 52% they deem to blame.
I'm not the worlds greatest tactician, but I'm pretty sure that's doing **** all to help the situation or move discourse in any menaginful direction.
Especially when you have two other parties that are a viable option to lead as much as Gary Glitter would be to babysit your kids.
The rest of their vote cam on the back of Brexit. When those people realise they’ve been shafted by mismanagement of covid, law breaking, corruption and theft of public finances they will turn.
If they can be convinced that all that is the price worth paying for keeping migrants, asylum-seekers and anyone who speaks more than one language out of England, they can be turned back when we get to a general election. Especially if the “all politicians do these things, but what you see is what you get with the Tories”, “it would be worse under Labour, and you’d have to live next to someone with an accent” lines can be made to stick. And that’s before you start to include the conspiracy theories (about left leaning politicians protecting child abusers and being controlled by Jews to push a “woke agenda” to undermine society) that are helping to build and shore up support for the far right from the USA, to Hungary, to, er, Russia.
Can’t believe It’s taken so long for someone to say that. (unless I missed it, haven’t fully read every post)
IF Corbyn hadn’t been Labour leader back then I reckon Labour would’ve got in. Even my mate who’s a life long Labour voter, Ex miner, union rep, Thatcher/Tory hater, didn’t vote for Labour, 1st time in his life.
See my point above about the remarkable success of the pro-tory media.
The sleaze, corruption and scandal is good for business as well, I don't think it'd all about being pro. The Tories generate clicks and therefore revenue.
See my point above about the remarkable success of the pro-tory media.
See my point above about the remarkable success of the pro-tory media.
No that wasn't the success of the pro-Tory media, it was the success of the pro-Tory PLP.
The day of the 2017 general election the Daily Mail had 13 pages attacking Corbyn, after months of doing it on a daily basis, that didn't stop Labour achieving the greatest increase in votes since 1945 and robbing the Tories of their majority.
Horrified the PLP redoubled their attacks on the Labour leader, their hostility was far more effective than the Daily Mail's.
They called Corbyn a racist thereby guaranteeing that Johnson, who presumably wouldn't dream of being a racist, remained secure in Downing Street.
I agree OP, I think the Tories will get trounced in the local elections and all this will serve to do is focus the Tory minds on the next general election, although at the minute the only idea they seem to have on the campaign front is culture war nonsense and perhaps signs that's no longer working?
I heard a commentator say the other day that boundary changes will probably equate to 10 extra Tory seats?
I honestly don’t know what the catalyst for change might be. Perhaps the living standards squeeze might be enough to start it. Perhaps
If anything is going to force change it’s the impending and considerable drop in living standards. With inflation through the roof and the country already mired in debt I don’t think the government really have anywhere left to hide. We’ve been bankrupt since 2008 when we introduced huge moral hazard by bailing out a corrupt and inept banking system, low interest rates (meaning cheap credit) and various economic props since then have maintained living standards but falsely so.
The only way to get people to pull their heads out of the sand and do something is to create a negative impact on their lives, so when the faux middle classes (of which I’m probably one) start having to seriously consider whether they can afford to go on holiday this year (let alone heat or eat) things might start to shift.
The government have been holding back the tide for a long time, I just don’t see how they can keep it up any longer. As the water gets higher people will start to panic and perhaps mobilise. The big question is who will they mobilise behind? I don’t consider any of our main parties to be any different in terms of ability. They are all self interested career politicians, no matter what colour the rosette or how rotten their morals.
Happy Easter!
Most of mrs zips family are leavers and tories.
I moan about all the houses the tories are putting up, the shit state of the roads, how long it takes to see a doctor. What happened to the £350million? Then use the word traitor a lot when talking about Dumbojo.
They can’t disagree with anything.
Never forget how many decent people the euro vote put on the streets. They are still there.
They called Corbyn a racist thereby guaranteeing that Johnson, who presumably wouldn’t dream of being a racist, remained secure in Downing Street.
It's absurd isn't it? As a nation, we got so worried about voting in a potentially damaging, divisive and incompetent government that we voted in a damaging, divisive and incompetent government.
Unfortunately they are a reflection of a large percentage of voters.
Agreed.
In answer to the OP, shoot some stupid people. ( or some selfish people either would suffice)
To be fair, the choice offered at the last general election amounted to: ‘would sir like his huge shit sandwich on brown or white breads?’
It’s coming to something and a telling comment on the state of our democracy when all the 2 main parties could offer us was a choice between that pair of clowns.
I think the sad reality is that with this lot enacting voter ID and gerrymandering the boundaries to further advantage themselves, the only way we’re going to get this lot out is through cooperation between Labour, the Lib Dem’s and the SNP.
Unfortunately, none of them appear to have the remotest interest in doing that, so it’s permanent Tory rule
For all yesterday’s ridiculous Rwanda announcement, there’s a rump of people who think it’s a great idea, and they go out and vote Tory at every single election. The Tory’s do this shit because they know it works.
I fully expect that their next general election manifesto will propose the return of capital punishment (maybe with a referendum) and this same rump of voters will wet themselves with glee at the prospect of the return of hanging and flogging and vote them in again
This isn’t directed at whoever made the original comment, more the overall sentiment:
Unfortunately they are a reflection of a large percentage of voters.
I disagree with this sentiment, it’s just divisive claptrap. How many people do you know who behave in the way the current government is viewed? Very few or none I’d imagine. They might vote blue rather than red, for their own reasons, but to vilify them on an Internet forum for having a different opinion to your own is unfair.
I would imagine a lot people were saying the same around 2009 just before Labour came to then end of a 15 year term.
To be fair, the choice offered at the last general election amounted to: ‘would sir like his huge shit sandwich on brown or white breads?’
Very much this.
I disagree with this sentiment, it’s just divisive claptrap. How many people do you know who behave in the way the current government is viewed? Very few or none I’d imagine. They might vote blue rather than red, for their own reasons, but to vilify them on an Internet forum for having a different opinion to your own is unfair.
This. The kind of behaviour you describe and some of the comments being made on this thread are a big part of the problem we face in moving to a more progressive and inclusive system.
"The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the minds of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias."
Learned Hand
It's absurd to think that people are permanently stuck in the mentality of when they voted over brexit or a GE. Circumstances change and people can change, it's about getting out there and arguing the case and not writing people off.
It’s absurd to think that people are permanently stuck in the mentality of when they voted over brexit or a GE. Circumstances change and people can change, it’s about getting out there and arguing the case and not writing people off.
I think I've only ever unfriended 2 people on FB. One of them because for them, everyone in Scotland was forever divided by how they voted in the indyref and therefore to blame for every political decision taken by the Westminster govt after this.
the only way we’re going to get this lot out is through cooperation between Labour, the Lib Dem’s and the SNP.
Unfortunately, none of them appear to have the remotest interest in doing that, so it’s permanent Tory rulethemselves
There are positive signs on this front to be fair. Rumours abound that starmer and Davey have had behind closed doors talks about a progressive alliance. It's never going to be a 'stand down the third party' level that you'd want due to the anti democracy argument it presents for the tories but more a backpedal the local campaigning for the third party and push the tactical voting message, although that has to be sensitively done
Starmer's going to have to do deals / make compromises with all the minority parties when the election campaigns begin in earnest and you can be sure Tories will be all over this if it's too overt
Mostly we need a fair electoral system that isn't based on a ridiculous 'first past the post' system that means a small number of voters in relatively marginal seats determine general election results.
You can rant endlessly about how the government reflects the population in some way, but the reality is that it mostly doesn't, at least technically. I can't vote for a party I really believe in because if I do, I may as well flush my vote down the toilet.
More immediately we need a proper electoral pact so opposition parties don't fragment the anti-Tory vote, followed by a commitment to electoral reform by a coalition government.
Don't hold your breath.
If you want things to change you need to understand the mindset and knowledge level of the average voter. Most people are inherently selfish (that's not a criticism, just a reality of human beings), they interpret doing better for society as an attack on their personal standard of living, look at the working poor in the States who are rabidly anti Obama care. The other issue is people's base knowledge levels. Not surprisingly really in a country that is drowned in reality TV and still has religion being taught in state schools.
To get people to change their voting habits you can't threaten their view of the status quo, the fear of their income being taken to pay for others,deserving or not. Corbyn embodied that for many people so it didnt matter how well intentioned he was, he was percieved as a threat. Austerity on the other hand doesn't affect the comfortably off that much, it's actually welcomed as the right thing to do especially as the unspoken assumption is it will increase the divide in living standards.
My prediction is a lot of the traditional Labour vote (who are also completely self centered) will return to Labour as the cost of living crisis bites. The Tories only held one bit attraction and that was to bash foreigners through Brexit, they will now see themselves as hardworking people (have you seen UK productivity figures) who need looking after and that's Labour's traditional appeal. Probably also explains why there are many strikes during Labour governments, they get voted in when people aren't happy.
For all yesterday’s ridiculous Rwanda announcement, there’s a rump of people who think it’s a great idea, and they go out and vote Tory at every single election. The Tory’s do this shit because they know it works.
I have openly racist people in my family (the bit I have as little to do with as possible) who I know just lap all of this up. I know my uncle said about the Rwanda announcement: "Good, they can all go and live with all the other immigrants there then!". He completely cannot see that to the Rwandans these immigrants are not fellow immigrants but just immigrants to their home country. He's very much of the mould of "British = great, everyone else = forriner".
How many people do you know who behave in the way the current government is viewed? Very few or none I’d imagine.
See above. They're not alone either as a decent part of their social group think the same.
It’s absurd to think that people are permanently stuck in the mentality of when they voted over brexit or a GE.
There are swathes of The Valleys that will only ever vote the same way their parents voted, it's the same mentality. It is absurd but it's out there in plain sight.
UK productivity figures reflect a failure to invest because labour is so cheap and the market is deregulated not, unlike what has been claimed by Tories, because the British worker is idle.
Most people are inherently selfish (that’s not a criticism, just a reality of human beings), they interpret doing better for society as an attack on their personal standard of living,
Agree and where you are in society has a bearing on where you selfishness takes you. Rich and vote tory (as they will continue to be on your side), poor and vote labour (as they will continue to be on your side). Whatever party helps others is not really part of the decision as long as they help you.
Not everyone is like that though of course but I think a lot of people probably are.
If you're in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland the way to improve your governance is to leave the United Kingdom. Bring it on.
If that's right then the immiseration of the working class and the proletarianisation of significant sections of the middle class should mean the LP will be elected comfortably. I have my doubts, we've had impoverished people going on about muslamic rayguns and nuke the ruskies.
@BILLmc a lot of British workers are as entitled as the middle classes are, they have an innate self belief in how great they are and how hard they work. It's not a true reflection of what they do in the same way many middle managers think they run the place when the reality is somewhat different.
Investment and automation would certainly improve productivity but there would be a different cost, jobs. Much of the work ripe for automation is low skill or low engagement from the employee. Take these jobs away and it leaves no employment opportunities for a big chunk of working people who are either unskilled or their own attitudes preclude them from more complex jobs.
I think the numbers who would protest are bigger than you imagine. My wife has never protested in her life, middle aged, mild mannered lawyer. Last night she demanded a protest March.
I disagree with this sentiment, it’s just divisive claptrap. How many people do you know who behave in the way the current government is viewed? Very few or none I’d imagine. They might vote blue rather than red, for their own reasons, but to vilify them on an Internet forum for having a different opinion to your own is unfair.
No, it isn't.
Everyone who has voted Tory has voted to punish and vilify the most vulnerable members of our society.
They have voted for hatred and division.
They have contributed to the deaths of people they believe should not be treated the same way they are treated themselves.
They have contributed to the destruction of communities, the creation of an easy to blame underclass and are responsible for the current state of our society.
And you want me to be nice to them?
I hate them and will always hate them.
Never forgive, never forget.
Unfortunately the majority of people – 52% at the last official count – on this nasty, spiteful, backward-gazing deluded backwater are absolutely ****ing horrible,
I disagree with this. Most people who voted leave did so because they had been convinced that it would make things better, they weren't sufficiently well informed or intelligent to see that they were being lied to.
Everyone who has voted Tory has voted to punish and vilify the most vulnerable members of our society.
Yes, but not on purpose. They dont understand what they voted for.
People are not rational, they don't make rational decisions during elections.
Yes, on purpose.
They knew exactly what they were voting for, to punish people they saw as lesser human beings.
They have blood on their hands.
As someone who lived through Thatcherism in the 80’s in the North as she casually and callously decimated our communities, then the years of austerity under Cameron and the misery it has caused with public services hacked to the bone, now this shower of arrogant, entitled, borderline psychopathic Brexiteer ****s, I’m 100% with Rusty on this
I’m not buying this ‘they didn’t know what they were voting for’ bullshit.
You don’t have to be the sharpest tool in the box to know what the Tory party are all about, just relatively lucid.
As for voters being insufficiently informed - there is plenty of information available but many voters aren't interested in informing themselves; they only hear what they want to hear which reinforces their views/prejudices.
Much the same could be said for the Labour voters who voted to keep them in power over the decade they led the country and waged wars in foreign fields, no?
Every single one who kept ticking the box for red has blood on their hands too. So yeah, never forgive, never forget.
In the Thatcher era people were sold the illusion of aspiration, social mobility, yuppies, power dressing. I remember seeing people on the tube open their very important looking briefcases only to contain a tabloid, a sandwich and an apple. The penny's beginning to drop that higher ed means lifelong debt, graduates now work in bars, buying houses is out of reach, investors are not interested in production but extracting rent, politicians are part of the establishment. Hopefully, a shift in attitudes and action will coincide with all this.
there is plenty of information available but many voters aren’t interested in informing themselves;
i think the people of this country have had enough of experts
Every single one who kept ticking the box for red has blood on their hands too. So yeah, never forgive, never forget
Depends if their was an alternative offering anything different. The Tories are far more enthusiastic for military adventures than Labour. Then you have to Offset that against all the good Blair did. I dread to think what the NHS would look like without those 13 years of Labour. It quite probably wouldn’t exist
Whereas with the Tories you are voting for a party whose entire ethos is utterly toxic and doesn’t have a single solitary redeeming feature. Nothing!
Never forgive, never forget.
Nurse your wrath if you like but don't expect it to bring about change.
i think the people of this country have had enough of experts
I think people of this country think they’ve had enough of experts.
Much the same could be said for the Labour voters who voted to keep them in power over the decade they led the country and waged wars in foreign fields, no?
Every single one who kept ticking the box for red has blood on their hands too. So yeah, never forgive, never forget.
That's me. An old leftie who approves of toppling genocidal fascist dictators where possible. And there's always a counterfactual.
We've syrian blood on our hands for not intervening there. And consequences of not intervening include not only a murderous fascist dictator in syria, but also waves of refugees across Europe possibly tipping the brexit ballot, and an emboldened russia. But hey.
Do those who opposed toppling sadam after the first gulf war have marsh arab and kurdish blood on their hands? What about kosovo and siera leone? Would you accept that blood too? Deciding not to act 'nah I'm not going to help you' is acting too.