I remember seeing people on the tube open their very important looking briefcases only to contain a tabloid, a sandwich and an apple.
A bit like the guy from Falling Down film.
My point @johnx2 was rather facetious, semi-serious. I think when people start chucking around the phrase 'blood on their hands' it seems a bit daft, as you've pointed out there are many examples of action and inaction by blue and red that leave any who fall into that camps with some dirty laundry and regrets.
Trying to score points to come out on top is the very essence of what is wrong with our political system and furthers deepens this problem.
@binners, nah I don't have to offset anything, one of the reasons why we're here is because of the rather impressive lengths people will go to to justify their chosen party and voting allegiance as right.
The greatest lies are the ones we tell ourselves. But instead of being open I think there are many in here protecting their own regrets, mistakes and wrath at their impotence to be able to change anything.
I think Boris looks like Jimmy Savile, flood the internet with pictures of Bozza manipulated to look more like Jimmy, lengthen his hair, stick on those creepy round red glasses and pop a cigar in his gob for maximum effect. I wish i had the know how to do it, go on you clever folk what yer got?
Whereas with the Tories you are voting for a party whose entire ethos is utterly toxic and doesn’t have a single solitary redeeming feature. Nothing!
So much talent floating around in the Tory party though.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61112219
Bloke already looks like the 'after' shot from the Indiana Jones Nazi face-melting scene.
Oddly enough, having observed the Tory conference goers in Manchester a few times and then heard the reports from the staff in the Midland, they are a queer looking lot, both physically and their attire. Then you get the younger ones trying to look like that, I've never seen it anywhere else. They really seem a breed apart but maybe that's how they want to be seen. Or maybe since they look like trolls they seek vengeance on the rest of society.
They knew exactly what they were voting for, to punish people they saw as lesser human beings.
Nope. Incredibly naive of you and Numbers to think that people pay attention to this stuff to that level of detail. None of this was in party manifestos, was it? They didn't do party political broadcast telling everyone they were going to **** the poor and the disabled.
Whereas with the Tories you are voting for a party whose entire ethos is utterly toxic and doesn’t have a single solitary redeeming feature. Nothing!
Yes, but how are you expected to know this unless you actually follow politics and critically appraise what's happening? Things that most people just don't bother to do.
I’m a libertarian, centre-right, remainer, conservative.
I’ve also been pretty successful in my career, so whilst I’m far, far, from rich, I do have an annual tax bill in excess of the average wage, so feel like I’m contributing my fair share.
If I vote for Labour, they’ll properly **** me over, because they reckon I’m rich and their envy politics kick in.
Voting Liberal is a complete waste of time.
So, Singletrack, who do I vote for? I’m sorry to say, the Conservatives are the closest I’ve got.
If you see voting as being entirely about your current personal perceived best interests, then you do sound like a natural Tory voter. (Just don't you or those close to you get ill in a way your insurance doesn't cover, need long term care, or otherwise fall on hard times.)
But if you want a secure nation that educates and cares for people it doesn't happen for free. Fair taxes fall more on the rich (though right now the poor pay more than ever), the former category contains me too fwiw though I certainly don't feel it. I'd like to live in a fairer better country, and don't mind paying my share.
In the past I might have agreed with you, but this lot seem intent of embezzeling as much as they can before they get kicked out.
accept as a higher rate payer your going to be ****ed, but at least the money will do some good with labour rather than lining the pockets of Tory donors.
Unless of course you are a Tory party donor..;-)
Er, I think you'll find it's the Tories who are increasing your taxes whilst reducing the provision of public services. Ben with all that money in your little willy wave, ever thought of subscribing?
Well you've certainly got yourself a low tax government now haven't you.
I don't believe Labour would **** you over. You are however currently getting worked hard , and going to get worked harder as you've an economically incompetent government leading you towards , if not recession, a very slow economy for a few years. Some of that isn't there fault, but some of it is directly finger-point-able
Yes, but how are you expected to know this unless you actually follow politics and critically appraise what’s happening? Things that most people just don’t bother to do.
Indeed they don't, many people feel, mostly wrongly all politicians are the same. Just in it to get their snouts in the trough. They'll vote like they always have or on single issues like brexit. Some just vote for who they feel will mess the country up the least or just leave them alone. Apart from your vote and engaging in politics at a local level, the answer to the Op's question is nothing.
so whilst I’m far, far, from rich
Say what now? Check your privilege, you're in the top 5 to 10% of earners in this country. I suspect you don't have to weigh up if you eat or are warm on a cold day inside your dwelling?
Stop comparing yourself to others and enjoy what you have and maybe consider if voting Conservative will lead to your comfy life being over-turned by a disaffected nation's underclass. Remember as the police get defunded they don't come out to minor law-breaking unless you are a Russian Oligarch
Well somebody voted them in. It's an echo chamber in here so just assume that you're in the minority and most of the country wants them in. Tbh, as an adult I've known about half Labour and Half Conservative. They're all as bad as each other, just in slightly different ways. Mayo or mustard on your shit sandwich?
Far, far from rich?
Far, far from reality more like. Not just top 5-10% but close to top 1% of earners. If your primary concern is the tax you pay then yes indeed you sound like a typical Tory and are well suited to them.
I’d happily pay more tax to live in a more civilised country.
If I vote for Labour, they’ll properly **** me over, because they reckon I’m rich and their envy politics kick in.
Just cos you’ve a few quid doesn’t make the Tories your friends.
Unless your playing in the league where your using your shell companies and generally not paying much tax they’ll be screwing you.
They are a party for the ultra rich/privileged not Joe Public.
The thatcher years are over, all the tories do is grab it all and pull up the ladder up behind them.
flood the internet with pictures of Bozza manipulated to look more like Jimmy, lengthen his hair….
I actually think Johnson is what we need to be rid of (I mean, whoever you vote for the government wins [Crass 198blah]), but Johnson’s a criminal. A racist, DVing, lying, cheating, vile scumbag. Does seem though even the Savile treatment would be survivable by him.
If I vote for Labour, they’ll properly **** me over, because they reckon I’m rich and their envy politics kick in.
Don't be ridiculous.
1. You don't sound like you know what a proper ****ing over is. Come back to us when you've been through the care system, when your assylum claim has been rejected, when you've become disabled, when you're forced to work a minimum wage zero hours job.
2. Labour won't raise your taxes (if that's what you mean by a ****ing over) because they know they need the middle classes onside and this is clearly a hot potato.
3. The tories are already ****ing you over. You don't live in isolation. Your company employs people educated in the state school system even if you weren't. I'm sure somewhere along the line you're short of skills. I'm sure that somewhere someone had to quit work to care for a loved one because they had no option. I'm sure your customers are having to pay for Brexit red tape instead of spending with you. I'm sure your roads are potholed, your public transport is shit, your environment is being damaged, those frightful poor people are causing trouble somewhere etc etc.
5. And seriously? You're more concerned about a few more quid in your pocket (alongside the many already there) than you are about being governed by lying cheating mendacious self serving in ompetent chancers who are literally hurting thousands or millions of people with their at best shit policies? REALLY? See point 4.
6. Envy politics? Keir Starmer isn't jealous of you. You're basically saying that poor people just don't work hard enough and want what you have without working for it, aren't you? You really have absolutely no idea, trust me.
Oh and
7. Your customers, or your customer's customers are scrimping to make ends meet because of huge inflation, low wages and high property prices. So they aren't spending as much money with you. Unless you are an estate agent.
A ****ed country also ****s you, even if you aren't poor. Do you really want to love in a country where everything is shit and everyone is poor, stressed and miserable? Are you happy with that?
Gotta love a Greatest Hits thead.
Agree with almost everything on this thread.
Some Brexit voters were just not thinking straight though. I'm prepared to give some of them a bit of slack.
Cost of living tends to screw governments up.
I always knew we'd *need* another term of Tories for things to get bad enough to fall apart.
Were at the start of that. Buckle up.
People think with their wallets - the minute houses prices start to slip the that's the time feeling will truly start to change.
BoE are clueless how to deal with inflation making no real tangible attemp to adjust inflation. That's a mess. Interest rates are the wrong lever.
(And I don't think Labour are cutting through at all - they should be offering much much more robust ideas. People aren't inspired. We're all a it numb.)
It’s crazy that there is no system to punish those at the top when they act like dicks. It seems they can just say they won’t resign and then there is nothing else that can be done, other then if their own party vote then out, which they won’t because the opposition is so poor they are under no pressure.
I looking back wistfully to the days when if a high profile politician f****d up they just resigned the next day, no discussion.
History will remember Boris for who he really is.
I’ve also been pretty successful in my career, so whilst I’m far, far, from rich, I do have an annual tax bill in excess of the average wage, so feel like I’m contributing my fair share.
If I vote for Labour, they’ll properly **** me over, because they reckon I’m rich and their envy politics kick in.
First paragraph similar to me. The difference is I am happy to be "properly ****ed over" if that gives less fortunate people a better life. It is not envy politics it is trying to make society a bit fairer politics.
We earn what we do because of pure luck. Yes I know you won't admit to that and it will be because of all your hard work no doubt.
Try to think of earning more as taken more from the system rather than giving more in tax...
I wrote a long post, but you know what? I can’t be arsed so I’ve just edited it and deleted it. You lot can think what you like, this is a one-sided toxic exchange as usual for this forum.
We earn what we do because of pure luck.
I absolutely agree. I was born clever, I have aptitude for something that pays well and I had the opportunity to develop those skills, by pure blind luck.
Another STWthread forgets who the target is and ends up squabbling and infighting-bickering.
Years ago Jonathan Ross had an excellent rant on The Last Leg about how privileged he was to earn enough money to have to pay higher taxes to support public services in this country.
That has always stuck with me.
i’ve not read all of the posts, so something similar may have been mentioned.
i have a friend who is essentially being kept alive with medication that he gets from the NHS. it is a congenital illness. he may have passed it to his children, i’ve not asked. he votes tory and he always has. “always has” seems to be his reason for continuing to vote tory as he never gives any other reason.
if we are dealing with people who can operate with such a low level of empathy or with such a massive disconnection from reality i think itcould be very difficult to convince a lot of folk that things won’t get better with the the tories. minds are closed. thatcher’s greatest achievement was convincing people who rely on the state for their schools and hospitals that a Conservative vote was best.
i have another Conservative friend. this one pretty much doesn’t need the state for anything beyond roads and the police. He is also a fair bit brighter than the last.
he is angry that global warming has never been addressed. he said something to me along the lines of why it has never been in the news. i said it has, but you’ve never read a left of centre newspaper. the tories are the party of business and profit and they are what cause most of the pollution. even when faced with this info, he still won’t vote any other way.
like someone said earlier, “tribal”. or was it “mob”.
I know I’m getting taxed heavily under a Conservative government. But I’m damn sure it would be more under a Labour one
And tax is bad? What about all the essential public services that are shit and underfunded under the Tories? Is that a price worth paying for a bit less tax?
And yes, I do vote for what I want to see. I want to see a mostly happy prosperous country where people get security that we all need, where people don't go hungry, where people are given the opportunity to live fulfilling lives, where people get good jobs and are protected from the ravages of unfettered capitalism, where public services are good, where things are clean and work well and where everyone's needs are met. And one where we extend kindness to those less fortunate even if they are from other countries.
And tax is bad? What about all the essential public services that are shit and underfunded under the Tories? Is that a price worth paying for a bit less tax?
Low tax creates problems further down the line and allows the wealthy access to more resources leaving less for everyone else.
But it doesn't fund central government spending.
Shift the narrative to 'we can afford it.' but the wealthy do need taxing more.
Molgrips for PM
PR is the obvious route, but that's not going to happen.
I know I’m getting taxed heavily under a Conservative government. But I’m damn sure it would be more under a Labour one
You'll be really annoyed when I tell you that between 1939 and 1945 the (checks notes) Conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill's government applied an income tax band with a 99.25% taxation rate.
Our taxes right now are a direct consequence of us putting up almost insurmountable trade barriers with our closest neighbours and we seem to have lost billions in test and trace and crony-contracts made between Conservative cabinet members and their mates/spouses.
TBH, I am actually pretty happy to pay more tax myself if the money goes towards the provision of social services and a publicly funded health service.
Shift the narrative to ‘we can afford it.’ but the wealthy do need taxing more.
100%. We don't have a cashflow problem, we have a greed problem. Not content with spiriting cash away to places where it won't be taxed or serve any use to the local economy, increasingly the rich and privileged want to dictate the terms in which we discuss matters like homelessness, immigration, welfare and social care.
No-one should be allowed to be a billionaire.
I was born clever
You really weren't.
You really weren’t.
Neither were you apparently 😆
You lot can think what you like, this is a one-sided toxic exchange as usual for this forum.
You got a proper roasting for saying you vote Tory because you don't want to pay more tax.
You can of course explain this as the forum's fault but other explanations are available.
Years ago Jonathan Ross had an excellent rant on The Last Leg about how privileged he was to earn enough money to have to pay higher taxes to support public services in this country.
That has always stuck with me.
Before recent events - having an immune condition, hypoglycemia and diary/soy allergies in our little family we've had loads of support from public services that I'm happy to contribute to.
However, I don't now trust that some or even all of it isnt going into the pocket of a Conservative member/supporter. I see the Rwanda issue and wonder whose pocket that £1.4m partly funded by me is lining. This is a sad state of affairs for the people that work with the funds of the public purse, but the mistrust has been caused by the lies and robbery leadership.
You lot can think what you like, this is a one-sided toxic exchange as usual for this forum.
Is this just you saying you don't like being disagreed with?
Why do you think we're disagreeing?
No-one should be allowed to be a billionaire.
I agree with that.
Hope you don’t use Amazon. I don’t.
You lot can think what you like, this is a one-sided toxic exchange as usual for this forum.
I'm not one-sided per se, but I'm vehemently anti-C.
The c* seem to be hell bent on making life worse for the 99% of us who aren't obscenely rich and channelling that wealth offshore by convincing 33% of us that we're temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
We can afford public services, subsidised public transport, net zero and decent state pensions. Unfortunately there are enough useful idiots who'll vote against their own interests.
I realise we have a number of threads which were initially set up in a bemused haze that their featured foci could potentially make high office.
We’re beyond that now.
This government is a venal, racist, self-serving, proto dictatorship. Their actions are deplorable. Their methods calculatingly effective.
How do we get rid of them? I fear the council elections will give central government a wake up call from which they’ll rally for a General Election and then we have another 5 years.
How can we get rid?
It's this type of aggressive, offensive and dishonest statements / campaigning by Socalist activists that ensures the Tories win every time. It needs to stop, now.
There's very little difference between our two major parties and Labour can be described in the same terms, and has done all the same things.
When Angela Raynor shouts out 'scum' in Parliament, the Corbynites all cheer, but the floating voters who Labour needs for an election victory don't. They can't make their mind up, and you don't win hearts or minds by stating the electorate made mistakes or voted for 'scum' last time.
It’s this type of aggressive, offensive and dishonest statements / campaigning by Socalist activists that ensures the Tories win every time. It needs to stop, now.
What's dishonest about it?
If you don't want to be associated with lying, venal scum, then don't vote for them.
Not read the whole thread but in the last election more people voted greens, Labour & lib dem than voted Conservative, get those 3 parties to form an electoral pact with proportional representation as the aim & bobs yer uncle 🤔