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No woman has ever asked to be raped, just like not a single liverpool fan there is to blame for any of the deaths. I get that bit.
Part of the reason that some people on this thread might still blame fans is the fact that 27 years of lies and blame have been rebuked in a way that has sought to present Liverpool fans as angels when clearly not all Liverpool fans there on the day are/were angels. Not being an angels does not make them at fault for the tragedy that was being investigated, but equally true is the fact that not being in any way responsible for the tragedy does not mean that all of their behaviour was ideal.
I believe that the best outcome would have involved the police 'fessing up immediately, and perhaps if they had done that liverpool fans - and football fans generally - would have been in a position to focus their attention on whether they could also learn some lessons as well, however negligible in comparison to the lessons police needed to learn, rather than simply fight for the justice that they have at last got.
To the people asking about ticketless fans and those pushing to get in. There would have been ticketless fans and others pushing to get in at every big match so ask yourself why hundreds weren't being killed every week.
It is inconceivable to think there weren't fans that day trying to bunk in as was their way. That's neither here nor there. It was fans - the vast majority of whom should have been there and were entitled to be there - that were directed into the central pens. Whether or not there were a few dozen or a few hundred that may not have had tickets is irrelevant. The disaster was still going to happen because of the decisions made on the day by the police. The HSE estimated the number in the Leppings Lane end was just under official capacity yet 96 people died. So where were all the thousands of ticketless fans then if the terracing wasn't at capacity?? They weren't there.
I also believed the lies at the time, for which I feel slightly ashamed.
chipkorea - MemberPart of the reason that some people on this thread might still blame fans is the fact that 27 years of lies and blame have been rebuked in a way that has sought to present Liverpool fans as angels
When did that happen?
Which seems a pretty minor inconvenience if it prevents crushing 96 people to death.
Quite. In fact you'd think that having prior knowledge of the poor entrance design, and having mustered the fans into the exact type of orderly queue you describe at the same fixure at the same ground the previous year with no incident*, someone should probably have arranged for the same to occur on 15th April 1989. Someone in charge maybe. Some kind of match day commander, if you will.
*EDIT - concerns were raised by fans regarding potential for crushing during the match, but no incidents outside the ground.
I was not simply asking about ticketless fans - I was wondering how many turned up with tickets for the wrong end as well (like this guy admits to in the guardian - in colours no less - who ended up in leppings lane end due to incompetent policing). However much the tragedy was 100% the result of incompetent and evil policing, I cannot help but think that the tragedy would have been less likely to happen if there were precisely the same number of liverpool fans within a few hundred metres of the ground as there were tickets sold in the liverpool end. I wondered if the inquest looked into that specific question.
A debate amongst football fans generally - that might have been possible had the police admitted the truth on day 1 - might have concluded that football fans generally needed to take more responsibility for ensuring that if incompetent policing ever caused future problems that fans actions did not exacerbate things.
Crowd behaviour is not unique to football. These sorts of incidents still happen in other scenarios regularly.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/nine-dead-at-pearl-jam-concert-20000817
Crowds will behave as crowds do and to suggest they are to blame for behaving in that way is wrong. Management of crowds is a science in itself - the responsibility lies with the relevant authorities to manage the crowds to prevent disasters happening.
Ever been to a big event at Wembley - there's a funnelling system back into the tube stations to prevent crushes occurring. Previously there used to be a moving road block - allowing fans to pass one cordon at a time, but then held back until the next one was clear. all controlled by a commander at the station who decides when people can move forward.
All totally lacking on that day.
might have concluded that football fans generally needed to take more responsibility for ensuring that if incompetent policing ever caused future problems that fans actions did not exacerbate things.
Of course, you're 100% correct. What we really need is, say a 2 year inquest, which looks at all the issues in great detail and comes to some form on conclusion as to whether the fans were to blame or not....
[i].....if she was still alive I'd have Thatcher up.... [/i]
Good Grief! 🙄
Chipkorea, these sorts of scenarios you describe i.e. fans at the wrong end, etc. would have been happening week in week out at every big match.
Northwind - I keep hearing stories from people whose young kid died, I don't remember ever hearing "I was there with my mate and he was a bit pissed up and he died". Both the kid and the 20-something who was a bit pissed up are equally innocent and equally blameless - but when fighting disgusting police lies it is inevitable that the stories that come out are the more heart-warming ones, whereas the innocent victims who once got a caution for pissing in the street get less of a look in.
Grantus - I agree entirely, and indeed go a football forum for my club where plenty of people refer to a very similar situation at a similar time where the people there believe it could easily have been another hillsborough.
Why did it happen at hillsborough and not at other grounds on other days? I presume that bad luck* and incompetent policing that was even more incompetent than normal incompetent policing would be two of the main reasons.
* or rather it was simply good luck it didn't happen more than once.
I think heart warming is the wrong choice of words but I get what you are trying to say.
However, there would have been thousands of pissed up fans at matches up and down the country week in week out, just as there would have been 'bunker inners' or people in the wrong end, or just plain old arseholes who would have went out that day with the intention of having a rumble with opposing fans.
The facts are - none of the above were found to be contributing factors. My own thoughts are that this is because these elements were perfectly commonplace at all football matches - hence, not a contributing factor to the tragedy.
Again, just my own view - I am really finding it hard to see how so many people are struggling to get to grips with the idea that what caused a perfectly normal scenario to go so bad was a sequence of horrific human errors which were not the fault of the supporters.
Imagine if the Captain on the Herald of Free Enterprise had said it was boozed up passengers that opened the bow doors on the ferry and then was found to have lied? The guy would be hunted for the rest of his life.
How come Duckenfield gets away with doing the same thing? As far as I am aware he is still receiving his pension, is he not?
Sorry Chipkorea, just to reply to your last message. I am of the same opinion in that I think another crushing incident was a disaster waiting to happen at many large grounds around the country. Was it inevitable? I don't think so but I do think it was extremely possible although perhaps not the scale of Hillsborough.
However, the fact that so many people think it was so likely - or even inevitable - surely substantiates the decision the enquiry made that the fans at Hillsborough were not to blame?
I cannot help but think that the tragedy would have been less likely to happen if there were precisely the same number of liverpool fans within a few hundred metres of the ground as there were tickets sold in the liverpool end.
You can think what you like but the inquiry still said the fans were not to blame and clearly explained who was to blame
you are free to spout bollocks about what you think the causes were on the internet but it serves only to highlight your ignorance
that fans actions did not exacerbate things.
FFS that is still a lie the inquest ruled that nothing the fans did contributed. Its a really simple thing to understand so please stop repeating things that are nothing but falsehoods and malicious ones at that.
Yes you don't hear stories of pissed up folk because the folk who dies were innocent and blaming them is the height of stupidity. To do it a few days after the enquiry must take some real effort on your part. no one can be this dense.
Why did it happen at hillsborough
I wonder if a two year enquiry would answer this
Nope **** that you have an ill informed fans forum to base your views on so what would the actual inquest be relevant here
It was drunk ticketless fans who contributed and exacerbated it all - even though you agree they were 100% not to blame 🙄
One thing seems depressingly apparent from reading this threadSouth Yorkshire Polices orchestrated approach of misinformation and lies has worked an absolute treat!
They're still employing it right now, to this day, despite the damning verdicts disproving every word of their lies and deceit .
They publicly apologise, and admit error, shedding crocodile tears - while behind the scenes, they carry on insidiously whispering that it was the fans fault really. They were all drunk, and forced the gate.
And incredibly - people still believe it!
Very, very stupid, terminally gullible, totally uncurious people, obviously. But as this thread demonstrates, they're hardly in short supply
+lots
"I know there's been several massive independent enquiries that have exhaustively covered al of these details and proven categorically that what I'm about to say is utter bollocks, but I still reckon........"
Part of the reason that some people on this thread might still blame fans is the fact that 27 years of lies and blame have been rebuked in a way that has sought to present Liverpool fans as angels
I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that. Just attempts to defend them from the 27 year national smear campaign that they were all drunken aggressive thugs who pick-pocketed dead bodies and urinated on the police and were to blame for 96 deaths which they weren't.
"One person trying to get into the end where the crush DIDN'T happen had no impact on the crush."
Erm - that one person (Adrian Tempany) said in the Guardian that he ended up in the Leppings Lane end having turned up with a ticket for the forest end in liverpool colours. His presence in the Leppings Lane End by definition contributed to the over-crowding.
With hindsight had he not been wearing liverpool colours - or had simply not gone to the game because he didn't have a ticket for the liverpool end - then he would not have ended up contributing to the crush.
I am not saying he is at fault in any way - the fault lies with the police who told him to go into an area where he didn't have a ticket, and then opened gates to let loads more people in causing a crush. But I do dislike the fact that 27 years of lies and cover-ups meant that liverpool fans and football fans more generally were forced to fight for justice, and as a result very little reflection seems to have happened.
If the police had 'fessed up on day 1 then maybe the Justice campaign could have put aside the issue of blame and instead campaigned to make it morally unnacceptable to turn up at a football groudn without a ticket (like drink drivng has become unacceptable) however much it was not a factor in the deaths of 96. Fans turning up without a ticket was not the cause of the deaths, but if you were God and you wanted to make 100% sure that no-one ever died in a crush at a football ground again you would undoubtedly add "no-one to be anywhere near the ground without a ticket" towards the bottom of a very long list that would have "competent policing" and "safe stadiums" at the top.
chipkorea this is just more mealy-mouthed and increasingly desperate attempts at victim blaming.
The best way to ensure no stadium crushes is for no-one to turn up at all - yay we'll never have another Hillsborough. 🙄
Grantus
You said [i]"The facts are - none of the above were found to be contributing factors. My own thoughts are that this is because these elements were perfectly commonplace at all football matches - hence, not a contributing factor to the tragedy.
Again, just my own view - I am really finding it hard to see how so many people are struggling to get to grips with the idea that what caused a perfectly normal scenario to go so bad was a sequence of horrific human errors which were not the fault of the supporters. "[/i]
That is very well put and I think reflects part of what I was trying to get at. (and heart-warming was not the right word, you were right). My other point was trying to be that it is a shame that the fight for justice detracted from fans looking at themselves and trying to reduce 'commonplace factors'.
chipkorea, what happened at football grounds once the fences were taken down?
I see in the press the deals with the compo vultures had been done over a year ago and kept secret from the public and the inquest
I think I would disagree with you on that one matey. I think a lot of people did a lot of soul searching after Hillsborough. The national game has changed beyond recognition since it happened.
Junkyard
My - [i]"I cannot help but think that the tragedy would have been less likely to happen if there were precisely the same number of liverpool fans within a few hundred metres of the ground as there were tickets sold in the liverpool end."[/i]
and your [i]"You can think what you like but the inquiry still said the fans were not to blame and clearly explained who was to blame"[/i]
are in no way contradictory.
maybe the Justice campaign could have put aside the issue of blame and instead campaigned to make it morally unnacceptable to turn up at a football groudn without a ticket
Perhaps if this had in anyway contributed to the events that unfolded then you would have a point
it is a shame that the fight for justice detracted from fans looking at themselves and trying to reduce 'commonplace factors'.
Like not at all being at fault?
FFS stop still trying to make it about the victims
It seems slightly odd that, in light of the verdict, there's any more discussion the ill informed need to have on where responsibility lies. This has been established in court. I can't believe that any one of us posting on here has more insight than those who participated in the inquest for the last two years.
Instead, we ought to turn our thinking to the following questions:
Having established culpability for the deaths of 96 people lies with South Yorkshire Police, is it in the public interest to pursue a police investigation (and potential criminal proceedings) to determine where and to what extent that culpability lies with individuals (serving or retired).
This inquest had taken two years and millions of pounds. It has also taken over the lives of 9 (originally 10) jurors who, while carefully selected to minimise bias, will undoubtedly have suffered personal and financial hardship as a result of this public duty - see the Jubilee Line fraud case for examples of the effects the current system has. Should the jury system be subject to a formal review for exceptional cases like these?
What does this inquiry mean for South Yorkshire Police - given the threefold criticisms over Rotherham, Hilsborough and Orgreave mean a wholesale restructuring is required? What about morale on the ground?
My views are clear above however in the interests of balance it should be remembered that after two years of taking evidence and three weeks of deliberation there were still 2 members of the jury that did not agree that there was no contributing element from fans.
What does this inquiry mean for South Yorkshire Police
who are still not getting it, and have lost their chief constable as a result! There were suggestions that the 4? police forces of Yorkshire should combine, become Yorkshire Police and let the South Yorkshire name (at least) whither and die.
there were still 2 members of the jury that did not agree that there was no contributing element from fans.
The decisions were unanimous on all counts except for the point on unlawfully killed where they had the majority verdict 7- 2.
All jurors agreed the fans did not contribute to the events that day. Only some ill informed folk on the internet disagree with this view.
Grantus. You are probably right about soul searching and the game having changed. I suppose my issue is my failure to see any connection between soul searching and the justice campaign. This is probably due to the justice campaign being about justice and not about every last nuance of football in the UK.
ourmaninthenorth. I am clear where the blame lies. It is obvious, not least from the verdict.
I have no issue with the verdict. I suppose my issue is a deep suspicion based on knowledge and experience and common sense [things which can lead you up the garden path] that the truth that we have been presented with - as per normal - is rather dumbed down for mass consumption and lacks depth and colour.
For example hooliganism did not directly cause the tragedy. ... but I am certain that hooliganism in the 70s and 80s did indirectly contribute to the bad policing. Unfortunately it seems hard for our dumbed down society to say such things without giving the police a get out they in no way deserve.
Of course Junkyard - you are quite correct. My mistake.
For example hooliganism did not directly cause the tragedy. ... but I am certain that hooliganism in the 70s and 80s did indirectly contribute to the bad policing.
There was hooliganism in the 70's and 80's but the way the media portrayed it was that it was everyone who went to matches, and it was endemic in the culture. I went to enough matches at the time to know that this was utter bollox! I've been to loads of games and I've only ever seen it go off once (Everton v Man U at OT). And even that was a minor skirmish, and quickly contained.
But what was going on at the time of Hillsborough was the demonisation by the government, with the help of their travelling companions in the right wing press, of certain sections of a working class that they had effectively declared war on. The South Yorkshire Police were well known as the willing stormtroopers of this fight. With a culture of almost militarised violence, and a liberal attitude to what constituted evidence, and the opinion that 'legal procedures' were an optional nicety that could be sacrificed readily to achieve 'results'. This effectively led to a culture of impunity, which the government were happy to tolerate, and indulge due to the useful purpose they served on the front line.
Hence the unquestioning acceptance of what SYP said from Bernhard Ingham and his boss
SYP in action....
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[i]My views are clear[/i]
All jurors agreed the fans did not contribute to the events that day. Only some ill informed folk on the internet disagree with this view
[i]Of course Junkyard - you are quite correct. My mistake.[/i]
What a complete tool! A perfect example of:
Very, very stupid, terminally gullible, totally uncurious people, obviously. But as this thread demonstrates, they're hardly in short supply
It's not stupidity or being easily gulled... You have to want to believe it. It's a choice.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/28/hillsborough-could-happen-again-police-views-liverpool-fans ]An interesting article by Owen Jones that perfectly sums up the opinions of people who have, through personal experience been rather less accepting than some on here of the depiction of events as told by the police, the authorities and the right wing media[/url]
Some people commenting on this thread need to open their eyes a bit, but judging by the comments posted on here, won't!
Because nothing like this will ever happen to you, will it? You're the right colour, and from the right place, and went to the right school. So no need to worry...
I disagree they returned to accept the error which is both a rare event on the internet and commendableWhat a complete tool!
We all make errors, we all get things wrong but not all of us reflect or comment on this in a good way
I think that is unfair considering there are others on here who just keep repeating things that are wrong, It was, giving them the benefit of the doubt, an easy mistake to make.
That the Hillsborough families and survivors finally have some truth and justice is historic; that it took 27 years is a damning indictment of how British society is run.
Yea right Owen, the cover up illustrates exactly how UK society is run. No really...Honestly binns, do you really swallow that stuff? Actually judging by...
Because nothing like this will ever happen to you, will it? You're the right colour, and from the right place, and went to the right school. So no need to worry...
The answer is yes. Didnt want to get into a debate on this issue at least not while it is raw, but honestly it's an insult to those involved when it gets wrapped up in this kind of clap trap. The tragedy of Hillsborough and the appalling behaviour that followed are truly exceptions (fortunately) not the rules and what has colour, place or education got to do with it?
Owen Jones' infantile rants and broken record are as I'll-placed as they are inaccurate. Wish he would grow up and have some respect.
have some respect.
For who?
If the truth is too much, then those who suffered at the very least.
I'm not seeing any disrespect for those who suffered, or those left behind. Can you enlighten me?
Is it just those who suffered? Or should he have respect for others as well? And if so, whom?
That the Hillsborough families and survivors finally have some truth and justice is historic; that it took 27 years is a damning indictment of how British society is run.
Seems like a perfectly reasonable comment to me.
If you have a problem with it THM then it's probably because you are a Tory, and quite frankly the unholy trinity/triple alliance of police-tory-murdoch had/has a lot to answer for over Hillsborough.
Sorry Ernie, not responding to your nonsense on this thread.
Ticket less fans was part of the inquiry no evidence of any was found.
Drunkenness was part of the investigation and inquiry no evidence of any , indeed the significant drink was off duty liverpool coppers in the crowd who assisted the injured and post incident south Yorks who spread the lies.
The not opening the leppings gate to prevent a crush was an established police tactic so much so that it had an operational name . it was not done because the new match commander refused to accept any advice from the previous one or familiarise himself with the ground or the operational plan.
Previous operations had filtered and controlled the crowd before they reached the ground.
The effective previous comander was moved because he was too liberal touchy feely and popular for the chief constables taste pity that he was good at his job and his arrogant militaristic replacement was not ,both were masons.
What you seem to be saying is that Owen should know his place?
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Sorry Ernie, not responding to your nonsense on this thread.
He does not like it up him ernie
Plus side is you can now criticise him without death by passive aggression and smarm
Its a truly terrible punishment to have to live with 8)
😀 (binners)