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I can't keep away.
Something to consider is the 'mindset' you'll be using it in. A SWB camper is, essentially, a tin tent. Warmer and comfier than a tent, but that's still basically what it is. At the other end you've got the double axle motor home which is basically an apartment on wheels. In the middle somewhere is your Crafter sized camper/motorhome which is basically a caravan you can drive. Working out where you want to be on that spectrum may help guide your decision as to what you're after.
they are rattly, leaky and cold.
Nope, nope and nope.
expensive
Absolutely!
Maybe it depends on how much you want to be in the van. If you're only parking up to sleep then the lack of headroom can be accommodated. If you think you'll be in it for longer (say during poorer weather, or even just to relax) then I'd say the height becomes more crucial (and I say that as being only 171cm in height).
It's also great for ventilation. We don't have any sliding windows and being able to open up the vents - and keep the midge at bay - is important.
It's a lot lighter inside too, with the big front window and the vents. Inside the van is a bit dark otherwise. If I had a high top I'd definitely need to fit decent skylights and/or high level windows.
This video from Ben Cathro covers some of the comprises in his Van.
Maybe it depends on how much you want to be in the van. If you’re only parking up to sleep then the lack of headroom can be accommodated. If you think you’ll be in it for longer (say during poorer weather, or even just to relax) then I’d say the height becomes more crucial (and I say that as being only 171cm in height)
I think it also depends on the layout of the van. We don't have a poptop, but can do everything (cooking etc) sitting down on seats, so it's never really an issue.
The ventilation point is a good one though (we open the windows a bit and have an extended latch on the boot, but they won't work with midges...).
We have L3H3 Citroen Relay. Both of us are 6'1"ish and wouldn't want anything smaller. Seems to get 37mpg wherever we go and drives reasonably car like. Non pro conversion done by a mate for his own use but looks pro done. We bought it off him after he had used it for a few years and decided to upgrade to a moho which he now regrets. It's an older 07 model and this year have had to spend a bit getting sills and wheelarches welded up but should see us ok for a good few years more now. Probably wouldn't be ideal as a daily driver but as a camper it's perfect for us. Gonna be pretty difficult to find something that's perfect for both without compromises one way or the other in my opinion.
Not suggesting you buy this but may give you some ideas what might suit your remit/price range. Bike rack and canoe rack included! Also has shower and loo on board!! Chances of finding something similar or newer in the UK for £20 = almost nil.
Looks like nobody has really addressed the requirement to carry a canoe.
Decide on what solution you need for that and work backwards. I think some pop tops can be operated with the load in place but I assume they are expensive. Plus those easy load sliding roof racks aren’t cheap!
robolaFull Member
Looks like nobody has really addressed the requirement to carry a canoe.
see my link above
The speed limits thing is probably true as it should follow the same principles as dual purpose vehicle.
For DPV, I have it in writing from DVLA that DPV does not go on the reg document.
And from DVSA I have it in writing that it just needs to meet the DPV criteria, but a court might have to decide and have the final say
It is only a problem on roads like the A75 where driving at 50mph gets you an Irish truck glued to your bumper.
A non passenger carrying rear bed / seat can save money, hassle and open up more storage options. If you do get a passenger capable seat, look critically at how they have been "M1 crash tested". A lot have been pull tested bolted to a steel bedplate which is better than no test, but behaves very differently to a vehicle floor. Only a few (RIB is one) have been tested in a bodyshell and sell the appropriate fitting kit that was used for the test. Tracking systems are also very dependent on being installed properly (too few fixings and they fail locally).
An observation from campsites from the window of my hitop is people in low roof vans spend alot of time outside the van rearranging the van between activities (cooking /siting/sleeping) no matter the weather.....or have an awning.
At 6ft 3 as a minimum I'd want a pop top option
I think if you need to move stuff around having the additional height (in a small part of the van footprint that benefits from extra height) then the height doesnt help much. Sounds like poor planning. We spent 11 days in Scotland and never put the bed up. Nice weather, sit outside, less nice we have swivel seats although we were out from morning to evening so it was no hardship to crawl into bed when we got back. Always wonder at the people who seem to sit in their vans almost all of the day. For me they are a means to an end, that being spending time in the countryside closer to the action and not having to drive home or leave very early to get to places.
Pre conversion we tried a few temporary setups and went for a slim kitchen and a wider bed. Without trying it out I think we would have gone for the more common setup which would have been too narrow. I am 6.1 and Mrs Surfer 6.9. Trade off in loss of cupboard space but happy with that.
I think it also depends on the layout of the van. We don’t have a poptop, but can do everything (cooking etc) sitting down on seats, so it’s never really an issue<br /><br />
Having had the same layout as you, yes absolutely. The Amdro worked perfectly without having to stand up, also no pop top for us. We previously had the standard “kitchen along the side” layout and it was a PITA, you had to kneel down to do everything.
Put some thought into the layout and you don’t need a pop top.
BUT now I can stand up in the new van I’d never want a low roof again…
Some pop tops will probably take a canoe, at least when un-popped.
This video from Ben Cathro covers some of the comprises in his Van.
My set up isn't a million miles away from that, but without the sliding seats/bed which means my kit goes in front of the bed when travelling.
It is a game of jenga when setting up for the night, I tend to stick my bike in a bike bag now so I can move it around easily and it slides in behind the front seats and doesn't block the units.
this is so hard to answer as so dependent on what you want.
Ive got a Vw t4 which cost me about £8k just before market went mad and I’m amazed at the price people are paying for shiny t5/t6.
Mines pretty basic and admittedly drives like a van rather than a car but it’s strong and solid and I love it! The essentials for me are:
It’s an lwb (an extra few inches makes a huge difference!)
has solar panels and leisure battery so don’t need electric hook up (but can do if on site)
diesel heater so can use all year around
fridge for keeping food and drinks cold.
hob for tea and pan meals (got sink but that just used to store stuff)
Tow bar and rack for the bikes
it’s great now mainly me and wife but when kids were younger an awning was essential but that also made it just a summer van.
the joy for me is the simplicity, everything stays in the van apart from clothes, toiletries, food and drink - throw them in and I can camp pretty much anywhere (although don’t do it anywhere often as I wish I did!)
Sounds like poor planning.
Seems like I only ever see the poor planners then. Maybe one day I'll see you and be impressed.
One strong word of warning, VW transporter campers are one of the most scammed adverts on Facebook and eBay.
Sister has just gone from a van based conversion to a small four berth motor home. She’s not going back. Better space, nicer toilet and shower. Not much bigger than the van. Wider and taller as it has an over cab sleeper, but it’s a decent piece of kit. She misses the large opening sliding door with nice views, but is otherwise very happy. I would. And at your budget too. Might get a kayak inside too.
a small four berth motor home.
Brand/model would be useful as I'm struggling to find a small motorhome not much larger than my van.
Seems like I only ever see the poor planners then
Or get out more and stop people watching 😉
A few I'm browsing:
https://campers4sale.co.uk/advert/2003-volkswagen-transporter-green-2-3-4
https://www.dvleisure.com/?id=968291
Beware the 2.5 5 Cylinder engine… It’s lovely when it works, I had one for about 5 years and had no major problems with it, but can be a real money pit if it’s not been looked after.
Also a 20 year old T5 check it properly for rust everywhere.
Check the load rating on pop tops. When we were looking in 2019, the only UK available roof that would take both our touring kayaks was the Jerba, which though lovely (midge scale netting as it’s made in Scotland) was ££££ so we didn’t do it, and to be honest don’t regret it. The side awning (photos below before it was fitted) has proved more useful.
This weekend showed we’re ok with compromises, a warm tin tent, and having to seek out loo’s. We will also use campsites a lot.
That’s how we use ours. Occasionally take the toilet (which we bought during 2020 lack of facilities) if planning on something more flexible but then it lives under the bed and gets used before bedtime if required. Thankfully neither of us tend to need to get up in the night.
Love my pop-top. It's an SCA194 rated for 70kg on a roof rack. I have Karitek rails which mount outside of the canvas, and a Karitek side loader, which was originally custom fitted for me to a coach built motorhome, and cut down by me to fit the VW.
With a light enough boat positioned in the middle happy to pop it with a boat on when it's not windy. As @ahset said above, if you wan't to pop more weight it's Jerba - I was parked next a Jerba van in Shetland last summer with two sea kayaks popped no problem.
MAOB,
We did the same the other week, hiring, and are in a similar choice dilemma. Ours was a swb T6, pop top, r&r, sink, 2 gas rings and gas oven. I'd ditch the oven, total waste IMO. I'm 185cm tall and appreciated the standing room.
I slept up top and Mrs mad on the r&r to give us both more space. I was fine up top but she didn't like her bed.
I think I'd want at least a lwb, ideally keeping the bikes inside at night. But we need to go looking at the multitude of layouts.
Brand/model would be useful <br /><br />
Autosleepers Nuevo. Hers is a 54 and they paid £20k for a one owner van. One in Inverness at Highland Campervans
Cheers!
Chances of finding something similar or newer in the UK for £20 = almost nil.
That German van is 20 years old and has 300,000km on it. Crikey!
Karitek side loader jealously - they are the dream.
There's a company near me that do interesting conversions - they've been going about 25 years so definitely up there with the best.
My boss actually had a conversion done there last year, was about £18k all in, he supplied the van (a LHD twin slider).
Might not be exactly what you'r after but interesting all the same.
Great walk-through design, quality is spot on, permanent high top, loads of storage. Great being able to accesst he kitchen, toilet and stand up when the bed is made up.
As someone who has owned a standard side kitchen / rocknroll bed pop top.....the Leisure drives are a class above.
Leisure Drive Vivante - walk through
I am unlikely to go for a fresh conversion - a professional company is just way to expensive when you add on a base van.
I was reflecting - the van we hired was neatly done and strong feeling, but pretty basic.
I am now pretty fixed on either a SWB with high roof containing extra storage, or a LWB with extra storage and a pop top with insulated cover/liner. The issue with a pop top is finding one which has canoe loading....they are out there, just fewer of them.
I am also pretty sure we want a side kitchen / rear bed like the one we hired, just with a bit more storage.
A driveaway awning is also going to feature.
We are comfortable not having a loo and using campsites, public loos and the (very few) occasional walk with a spade.
FWIW we have a side kitchen and side bed. We didn't like the front-facing seats that the rear bed provides as it feels much more claustrophobic than the side seat facing out the side door. I should try to get some photos later.
Not your spec Matt but worth mentioning.
You have to be careful with a MoHo; a max user payload of 500kg is typical for a smaller 4-berth model, so four adults and four bikes and a bit left over. You need to check if their payload figure excludes fuel and fresh water, for example
Manufacturers also use Mass In Running Order (MIRO), similar questions, does that include batteries, fuel, gas bottles, hook-up cables, etc?
Thanks Timba - agree it is an issue - having worked with Minibuses for a job for many a year. Fill a Transit 17 seat up with nothing but 17 adults and you are likely over MIRO/Gross Train Weights etc. Crazy.
Campervans are always a compromise so you might not get exactly what you want for sub £20k (happy to be proven wrong!). Jerba converted our 2004 LWB T5 in 2010 and we used it for a further 7yrs and 60k miles. Quality and attention to detail was well above any other van I've seen, but I suspect even the earliest ones like ours will be close to £20k even now. Random advice based on our experiences.
LWB for the extra space - it doesn't really affect day to day driving.
Pop-top or fixed high roof - at my (and your) height and a dodgy back, the extra head height over a fixed low roof was essential.
RIB seat/bed is brilliant. Even better if on rails - wish ours was. LWB allowed us to spec a longer-than-standard bed and also go full 130cm width with 3 seatbelts, prioritising sleeping comfort at slight expense of storage. Very comfy sleeping.
Who converted it is key. Can't speak for others, but Jerba's thought and attention to design was brilliant. Made use of every available space without using valuable cupboard/storage space for utilities. e.g. fresh water tank and 2 x batteries underslung to save internal space, diesel heater under driver's seat. Very sutble conversion with the 240v hookup socket and water refill point tucked behind a hinged panel under the rear light, so no flaps cut in the bodywork. Ours had the SCA roof which was rated for kayaks although wasn't something we ever explored.
LWB also meant I could carry bikes internally between the front seats and rear seat/bed - wheels poked slightly between front seats but not badly. Can't do that in SWB.
Drivewaway awnings are superb. We've still got ours stashed away for future use with current non-campervan.
Watch your weight. With the conversion plus everything we carried we were right on the limit (confirmed with weigh bridge). Probably less of an issue with only 2 of you.
If I was doing it again I'd have a toilet. Most seat/bed designs allow for one to be stored underneath. Jerba design had it accessible via a front door in the seat base.
We only sold due to lack of storage space. It was a struggle fitting in everything for a 3-week Euro tour with bikes, a 2yr old and 3-mth old and all the baby stuff that entailed.
FWIW we have a side kitchen and side bed.
We've got a similar layout. If you don't need rear travelling seats, I think it's a much better layout. Can squeeze two bikes (wheels off) in the back and still sleep two in a swb.
Would the canoe fit inside a layout like the Jerba Sanna?
I think there's a lot to like about these backwards pop-top designs and not just having a toilet. Much more usable kitchen if you want to be inside in winter, and if it's just you then can leave a single bed made up rather than needing to pack away each day. You can also use as two separate singles rather than pushing together into a double.
re: compact motorhomes, my parents rented a Rollerteam T-Line 590 which is under 6m and worked really well. Drop-down bed so you can leave it made up and just raise it out of the way. Can sleep an extra two under for occasional use. Bit tight on weights though (as many are). They've also owned an Autotrail Tracker EKS which is a little longer, two big benches that can be used as two singles or turned into a big double.
Storage
So our self converted LWB + poptop is enough for 2 adults + 2 dogs for long trips in all weather. We do store stuff outside when we camp like dog stuff in a plastic crate and chairs + bbq etc.
With storage it's not necessarily LWB vs SWB but how well thought out it is. You see LWB with less storage than SWB. Ours has taken a few iterations and refinements to get optimal with a place for everything with some thought about cupboards, shelves, and the like. This is where converters who do their own stuff that they refined over time, rather than flatpack are good.
Poptop
We got fitted later after using a couple of year without, which is something to consider if you cannot find the perfect van now. They are fine, don't leak, some driving noise but hey, it's a van full of camping stuff so not quiet. A high roof would also be fine. Both give more storage, and unless you are 5 foot tall, you need the headroom. We did without for a while, but without we needed an awning for anything more than a weekend
Awning
Used a drive away awning. The convenience of a van but with the drawbacks of a tent. So why not just get a tent. It just ends up being a place to put all your crap that you didn't need to bring. Plus it blocks a window, camp somewhere with a lovely view? well now you can only see out of one side.
Having had a T4 California with the standard mix of R&R bed, cupboards and pop-top and a custom t5 with a full width bed and less cupboard space we went for a LWB T6 Kombi with an Amdro boot jump set up - Nice big bed folds down on the Kombi seats, the "kitchen" unit slides out of the back and we still have plenty of space for carrying bikes in the back - am not sure if Amdro still do the conversion (I know they still do the Kombi bed) but they may be worth a call. The cost of the bed and kitchen unit was a lot cheaper than the usual conversions and gives a lot of extra flexibility.
Would the canoe fit inside a layout like the Jerba Sanna?
Nope.
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I'd strongly recommend having a toilet, especially if you are likely to take it across to Europe. Having a loo opens up options to use aires. They are great for overnight stops, for instance to break up the journey to the Alps. I'm sure you are pretty handy with a trowel but it isn't really appropriate when you are on the edge of a small village and the surrounding fields are full of Champagne plants.
Also one of the joys of a van over a tent is when you wake up needing a wee at 3am, it's hissing it down outside and you realise you don't have to go out in it.
Come on MAtt you're better than this... where's your can do attitude?
Does anyone know of a site that explains the differences between the Fiat Ducato/Citroen/Peugeot versions over the years, say 2010 to today?
Come on MAtt you’re better than this… where’s your can do attitude?
Funnily enough, my dad offered me his camper last year. Which was smaller than a Yaris...!
And mrs_oab said no. Can't possibly think why....
Yep, toilet is a must.
I'm really liking the look of the Jerba Sanna, or the Leisure Drive Vivante - the "straight through" layout would allow us to get a tandem in there for transport. The alternative would be roofbars and a "helton" sliding carrier, akin to the karitek (or a normal carrier and a set of stepladders)