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Sorry roverpig =- that question should have been to boardingbob!
so boardingbob =- please name me the consultant in palliative care specialist with decades of experience in cancer of unknown primary you use? I take it you have a choice of several so they provide 24/7/365 cover?
Or is it as I believe that no private company will have the level of expertise that we needed?
TJ - I can't believe I'm going to waste my time arguing this with you, because I know you will be beligerinent in your belief that your experience is 100% the same as everyone else's but you've got some real nonsense in here which actually doesn't help anyone:
Not my experience – of 4 different traumatic injuries to 3 different people
Yes I'm sure if there is proper trauma that NHS physio does a good job of getting sports people back in action. However, where its just a sporting injury that doesn't require any other medical intervention they are not so good. Ask any adult footballer who needed cruciate ligament surgery and didn't have private cover how long they waited, you'll not find it hard to find people who actually lost enough fitness waiting for treatment for sports injuries rather than trauma that they didn't return to the same level of sport, or sport at all. That may be counterproductive as I can certainly point to a couple who have gone from fit n healthy to couch potato as a result of musculoskeletal issues. Knees, shoulders, elbows, ankles/feet - all classic relatively low priority matters for the NHS if the bones are not broken etc; we'd all pay to get a wheel fixed if it was stopping us riding so why not our body? Its difficult to see how injury that stops you doing a sport, but isn't getting in the way of basic life is ever going to be an NHS priority. No doubt you'll point to examples where it was - but I've personal experience that it certainly isn't universal. As you've acknowledged GP services are variable (and actually private without having the customer service mentality of the private sector).
Only in that thats a clinic in NHS lothian thats self refferal
First google hit for "NHS Lothian physio self referral":
https://services.nhslothian.scot/ecps/Pages/SelfReferral.aspx
Note it says: "If you require Physiotherapy Treatment for a muscle, bone or joint problem please speak to your GP."
Actually yes I can – thats how it works. Again I have used this service a few times including two out of hours visits
No you either aren't understanding or are being deliberately obtuse. You didn't get to choose to meet a GP 24/7 - you met the clinical criteria for seeing a GP with that urgency. When people say their private health gets them quick and easy access to a GP - they mean - when THEY want it / decide it's necessary not when the triage system prioritises them. That's the luxury they are paying for (although I believe you can "buy" these services ad-hoc rather than needing a policy as such).
NOpe – its takes resources from the poor to give to the rich – anbd also the private healthcare comanies do not train or pay for the trained staff they take
its probably not that helpful to treat everyone with private healthcare as "rich" - that's a myth. Certainly they probably aren't poor - but lots of people with not very much get private healthcare through employers (many will earn less than a nurse). My only experience of private health is provision in separate buildings using separate facilities from the NHS. Its not clear to me that this is taking resource from the poor. I'm sure private providers do train staff, although you are probably right they don't do the initial professional training. But then anyone who trained as a teacher, police officer or firefighter should never be permitted to leave their public service professions and use those skills in private sector either? Might be particularly galling for those who have paid fees for university to be told that the NHS paid for their training - in plenty of places NHS has made good use of its trainees as cheap labour to keep costs down. Or does the taxation on the salaries, the fees (subject to VAT) and the insurance premium (subject to IPT) along with the rates and corporation tax all go back into the UK Plc funds which feed universities and teaching hospitals for their educational role?
Private medicine makes the average persons healthcare worse by removing resources from the system and wasting them on the worried well and minor ailments there is a finite pool of staff
Or some people would argue it (a) helps keep leading consultants and surgeons in the UK where they can earn more and still do stuff to "help out the NHS"; (b) provides some degree of salary competition for the NHS and thus stops the government monopoly on health staff from driving down wages; (c) means that people who would otherwise have left the working conditions of the NHS to do something totally different, stay in healthcare and reduce the burden from the worried and minor ailments people who would otherwise still be a PITA to the NHS.
try listening to what I say – it is simply not possible for a private company to give the level of palliative care that I received. cannot be done as they do not have access to the services needed – and I very much doubt they have staff with anything like the level of expertise
I can't say one way or the other. But its not like if you go private you are now excluded from using NHS services so its a bit of a non-argument that you would never go private because they don't offer palliative care (or it may be inferior). Its like saying, "I'd never ride a bike because if I need to move a big box I'd be better with a car".
and I loathe with every fibre of my being the way that private healthcare lies and misleads and deliberately frightens people into paying for worse services with worse outcomes
I wonder what the split is between people who individually pay for treatment*, those who take out a policy themselves and those who get a policy via employment? I don't know anyone in the UK who's been "frightened" about not having private healthcare? I also don't see how you can "pay for worse services" when its a "top-up" arrangement on the NHS not a replacement. If the service is worse - people would just default to the NHS. However, despite the NHS being amazing at many things there are aspects of private health they could learn from: - customer care, communication, making people feel less like a number or a burden, some basic comforts etc.
* and I wonder what proportion of those are getting cosmetic or similar treatment that would never be provided by an insurer (or indeed the NHS)?
Very polarised views on this. I love the NHs, it has saved my life and finally diagnosed my mum with MN.
There is no way private care would have spotted the issue that had me in hospital for 4 weeks and they failed to diagnosis my mum's MNfor 2 years (to be fair it took the NHS over another year).
However I cannot get a GPs appointment on the day, pre covid . Used to be about 2 weeks. Actually with covid things are better , a doc is on the phone doing consultantations. Still takes a day or so to get one.
Physio on the NHS, just not possible in a reasonable time frame here.
At home care for MN,non existent. Couple of visits initialy to see your home set up and a few bits and pieces sent across. Now once a month visit from the district MN nurse.
Every region is different, so others experience will vary. I am down in the money sucking south,so you thought it might be good to keep the votes coming in.
The blame falls on the government, it is an amazing institution and looks after so many. However it underfunded and under resourced. so every is done to keep the maximum number of people healthy.
I agree to some extent that a dual private/state system ups the state cost. However it is needed now to plug some of the gaps.
Poly - privatre healthcare does not do the training - they cannot - they do not have the range of experience required - that the 4 years it takes to become a nurse or the 7 years it takes to become a doctor. thats a fact.
Private healthcare is worse - when it goes wrong you have to be rushed off to the NHS for the emergency care and thus that delay while you are moved causes worse outcomes. Also less overnight cover so again worse outcomes if something gores wrong
As for your GP point - yes I can get a GP if appropriate sure with private you can get a unneeded GP consultation - taking expertise out of the system for unneeded consultations
As private healthcare is less efficient than the NHS taking those staff out of the NHS reduces the total staff time available
this is why some countries have no private provision allowed
I don’t know anyone in the UK who’s been “frightened” about not having private healthcare?
Look at the adverts for private healthcare - a fair few play on fears of a poor NHS to get people to pay for private health insurance that actually does not cover whats needed and has worse clinical outcomes
– in plenty of places NHS has made good use of its trainees as cheap labour to keep costs down
not for decades has this happened. Not since nursing went to university based training.
I can’t say one way or the other. But its not like if you go private you are now excluded from using NHS services so its a bit of a non-argumen
Point missed - if you want a part and part provision then you do not get the seamless and hassle free extension of services.
one example from my recent experience - we had a direct line into the local hospice if needed. No extra referral needed ( because all done thru the NHS) - just one phone call and Julie would have gone directly from home to hospice. thats the sort of seamless provision private cannot provide
I have it through work and for physio and elective surgery it’s been great. Then I was diagnosed with MS and guess what, no cover for chronic conditions like that. Just as well the NHS has me covered on that front.
I’m not saying don’t get extra cover if you can afford it just that you need to be aware of limits on cover.
Its very telling that neither boardingbob or nickc are able to answer those questions I set them
please name me the consultant in palliative care specialist with decades of experience in cancer of unknown primary you use?
What would be the point Jeremy? Your miopic belligerence will never allow you to change your mind. Loads of us on here pointing out that our actual experience trumps your sample of one. I don't know why we ever bother responding to you.
If it makes you feel better, you're right, we're all wrong.
So you do not have multiple palliative care consultants available?
If you could refute my point you would. the fact you are unable to shows the value in your baseless assertions
Its a simple fact - because of the limitations of private healthcare they cannot provide the same levels of care as they do not have the expertise available and your refusal to reply is very telling.
If it makes you feel better, you’re right, we’re all wrong.
I know you are wrong. 🙂
Away and enjoy your retirement man
"..Private healthcare is worse – when it goes wrong you have to be rushed off to the NHS for the emergency care and thus that delay while you are moved causes worse outcomes..."
Sorry. Private healthcare is better as long as things go smoothly.
I spent the best part of a decade trying to get my debilitating ankle injuries treated sucessfully on the NHS - including three years trying to get a proper diagnosis and then a poor solution after a long wait which failed. During this time I lost all fitness, put on five stone and developed secondary conditions due to the mechanical problems with my body that also came to need surgery.
After so long on this I paid my own hard earned for a private consultant and had operations (different solution) that fixed the issues (at my own expense) in a week.
A WEEK.
Now I'm five stone lighter, ride, walk (I live in North Wales now - unthinkable previously) and can even run a bit.
I'll have lifelong pain caused by the unacceptable delays trying to get treated properly on the NHS but that's by the by.
Whilst I agree the NHS is hugely valueable and important we have to accept certain realities of the world we live in. My reality is that ideology has NO space in healthcare - if you can get treated faster and better elsewhere then it's a no brainer.
Best ten grand I ever spent.
Sorry. Private healthcare is better as long as things go smoothly.
clinical outcomes are similar until it goes wrong - then they are much worse.
Checvy chase - yes for the individual private can be great - its a shame its to the detriment of those who cannot go private. this is why I pursuaded my mother to get her hips done privately
the problem is that private healthcare takes expertise away from the NHS - so good for the individual for routine ops when there is no problems but to the detriment of the country as a whole
@tjagain - I don't give a monkeys. You're cherry picking to reinforce your belief.
You said, and I quote "private healthcare is worse".
You weren't making that statement justified by limited cirumstances - you were applying it in a blanket fashion.
You were and are wrong. Like most religious people. Look at my lived example and tell me how a decade of repeated abject failure by the NHS is better than paying privately for a timely, better, outcome.
There are strengths and weaknesses to both systems and if you take your religious objections to private being a parasite to the NHS aside - which, practically, most people who are ill do - then, if you are able, you should choose whichever is most effective for you.
Rightly or wrongly we don't live in a socialist utopia. It's not going to change in my lifetime whether I want it to or not - so I'm VERY grateful for the existence of competent healthcare that I can rock up to with my cash and get treated fantastically and quickly.
I feel for those unable to afford it. But I feel no guilt at looking after myself. And nor should I.
you do not have multiple palliative care consultants available
Clearly not
https://finder.hcahealthcare.co.uk/hca/search/specialists?searchString=Oncology&specialties []=710&practice=london_bridge_hospital
https://www.hcahealthcare.co.uk/our-services/supportive-services/palliative-care
https://www.cromwellhospital.com/services-specialties/oncology/
https://www.bupa.co.uk/care-services/what-type-of-care-do-i-need/palliative-care
Your next post about paritism of the NHS by private. Don't really disagree.
But I don't care *enough to not use private*.
If I'm in pain, debilitating pain, and I can pay to fix it - or live in pain whilst the NHS fails to treat it - I'm going to pay.
You can be a martyr if you want to. It's bloody unpleasant - and frankly there are issues that I would put first over this. It's not the hill I will die on.
chevy - I was basically agreeing with you
Boardingbob - you priove my point. Not a single palliative care specialist in that list - oncologists are not the same
No details on the services available for palliative care
the Cromwell ho[pital link - again no palliative care specialists
Bupa link - no home care
spire link - again no palliative care specialists
Oh - and on the bupa care homes doing palliative care - I have worked in two different one - the palliative care was rubbish. really poor to the point i was going to report one but it was taken over a few weeks later
So boardinbgbob - I ask you again. who are the palliative care consultants available 24/7/365 you use?
Also the advanced nurse practitioner nurse prescribers palliative care specialists
If you're going down to the "name them" part of the argument it's going too far.
I happen to agree that the NHS have the capability to do the most advanced forms of palliative care. However, not everyone *needs* that and the private sector does an admirable job in those cases.
I have worked a lot in palliative care ( decades) and that expertise is needed - our case was relatively simple - ( apart from they had to deal with me poor folk 🙂 ) but still the high level expertise was essential in getting a good standard of care as was the seamless service
Palliative care is a difficult speciality. Generalists cannot do it as well because they do not have the expertise.
an oncologist is NOT a palliative care specialist
chevy - the name then was a challenge I threw at him because I know he does not have the palliative care specialists available 24/7/365 and hoped he would admit that
Point missed – if you want a part and part provision then you do not get the seamless and hassle free extension of services.
there's no fundamental reason it should be hassle though. I suspect that much will come down to the policy and people involved. My limited experience so far is that in other regards getting stuff organised privately is usually much simpler than via NHS. It may be that NHS are much slicker with end of life care than other stuff.
one example from my recent experience – we had a direct line into the local hospice if needed. No extra referral needed ( because all done thru the NHS) – just one phone call and Julie would have gone directly from home to hospice. thats the sort of seamless provision private cannot provide
I don't know if private can or can't provide that - it seems a little odd that they wouldn't be able to to be honest - my provider has a specific "Cancer Patients Helpline" to get advice and help arrange treatments. However, I dusted off my policy (which I do believe is one of the better ones, and even within this insurer not everyone gets these benefits).
Here's what they cover:
£5000 cash on diagnosis of cancer "to alleviate financial worries"
They cover all the medical, surgical stuff you would expect (including stem cells, experimental treatments backed by doctors); plus wigs, prosthesis etc; in addition they will fund up to £100K of drugs which are not supported by NHS*.
If you get treated in an NHS hospital rather than the private one you get £100/day, the same if on IV at home (paid to the patient - that money may make a big difference, its not really healthcare insurance, more critical illness cover).
10 years of post-treatment monitoring.
End of life care in a hospital when medically necessary.
If you go to a hospice they donate £100/day to the hospice.
If you get Macmillan/Marie Curie nurses (or similar) at home they donate £50/day to the charity.
So their palliative care isn't necessarily any different to NHS, but they are providing a feel-good factor (donation). However, this is a policy that's generally only available via employers and of course that skews the risk profile substantially.
However, there is a feature of most policies - if you don't claim through them and just go via NHS they'll pay YOU for each day of treatment etc; that may make you feel better about not stealing resources from the poor whilst still benefiting if your employer provides the policy.
*the small print says they have to be shown to be effective - so I suspect that not often does the NHS not support drugs that they will.
Here you go TJ, example of a palliative care consultant at HCA.
https://finder.hcahealthcare.co.uk/hca/specialist/dr_shaheen_khan
Hopefully this ends your relentless questions
Would private medical insurance cover a person for bashing their head against a brick wall. (Asking for a friend).
so boading bob - you found one palliative care consultant - ( as did I when re searching your list). One. to provide 24/7/365 cover for the whole country,. Whereas I had 4 in one hospital covering a part of Edinburgh so actually did get that 24/7/365 cover
so my point is proven. Boarding bobs private cover cannot supply the expertise that the NHS do in palliative care
Poly
"I don’t know if private can or can’t provide that"
Whereas I know they cannot - its only available as a service if the local NHS palliative care consultant OKs it - and as the private provider does not have that expertise if you were private and having home care then the home care fails and you need hospice care you would have to go thru the assessment for the hospice first which would take 24 hours at a minimum
also can you get expert home care including syringe driver refills and so on from your private cover?
palliative care is one of the tings the NHS d0oes so much better than private
About cancer drugs -
"Abiraterone is routinely available on the NHS in Scotland as a first treatment for advanced prostate cancer" says Prostate Cancer UK (...but not England /Wales)
- I know a chap who is in England but managed to get Abiraterone (as a 1st line treatment) through his private insurance, and he credits that partly for why he's still here, 4 years on from the discovery of prostate cancer mets in his bones.
So it is an issue sometimes. I'd agree with you that it's probably rare though.
I'm a big defender of the MS, but my stepdaughter (22) found a lump on her breast on January, went to her GP in the Easter holidays, who described it as "worrying", and referred her. But when she chased her GP today on a timescale for further diagnosis was told she wouldn't get anything until next summer.
15 months. For a mamogram. For a 22 year old who has a large, painful and growing lump on her breast. Utterly ridiculous. So obviously we are going private. I can't believe that we will end up
paying for worse services with worse outcomes
in this instance.
boriselbrus
Thats absurd. either there is a detail missed here, the GP is incompetent or fishing for private work or your local NHS is in a worse state than most
Julie needed an urgent scan - 2 weeks wait ( which we felt was too long so had one done privately)
Thats an issue to make a huge fuss about. something badly wrong there
So Nickc never came back to try to defend his nonsense that the private sector trains its staff - they do not. all done by the state and boarding bobs assertion that the private sector can provide the same expertise and level of palliative care is also shown to be bobbins
ON the outcomes - obviously if you get something done privately quicker then its better for the individual - but thats not what his means. to compare outcomes you look at a similar group of people having the same treatment NHS or private and see which one does better - thats where the private system falls down because IF something goes wrong then you are much better off in the NHS - thats why statistically outcomes are better in the NHS
I’ve worked in the NHS for 15 yrs, my wife is a Surgeon in the NHS.
If we had access to private healthcare through work we would jump at the opportunity. Predominately for the speed of access for diagnosis and fast treatment
Eg my hip is on the way out. Going through the NHS I first have to get through the GP, then through physio services, then a period of months of see how you get on, then back to GP, then wait for a consultant appointment, then wait for a scan. That process can take over a year
Going through the private route that could all be done within 2 weeks
No the private sector doesn’t not train its own staff, that would be impossible.
Not all private consultants are good, do your homework and find out.
Private health does have limitations If you get unwell whilst being operated on or in their care you will be transferred to an NHS hospital
Whether you should take out private healthcare in many ways depends on where you live and how good your local NHS is. There is no doubting thought that where ever you live, private will give you answers quicker
TJ - don’t be so polarised with your views. I have seen the outcomes of people having really poor palliative care in the community, purely because the NHS didn’t have the staff to do it properly, a quick Google brings up many private companies offering palliative care. If I could offer that to relative/friend then I certainly would.
Funkydunc - I really accept most of that and have used private diagnostics and persuaded my mother to have her hips done privately because of delays
What happened tho was boarding bob claimed that he could through his private insurance provide the same level of expertise as the NHS - obvious nonsense as they do not have that expertise available in the private sector nor can the private sector provide the seamless transitions between different areas ( hospital / home / hospice)
I was lucky in that being a nurse I did not need social service carers - thats where the state system falls down badly - social services carers are crap by and large because of the godawful constraints they work under and the problems of recruitment and retention - but guess what - social services care is a privatised service. I did get very good carers from the hospice at home service for the last 3 days - 2 carers for an hour ( and could have had more). far more than available thru the social services and of course an option that would have been far harder to arrange if at all possible if you were in the private system. I took me one phone call to get those carers to come it.
the NHS has not provided home care for decades - its all via social services now ( not treatments - thats obviously still the district nurses but the washing dressing toileting stuff) and since the privitisation its a crap service from social services
I just object strongly when people who have no proper understanding claim private healthcare does things that I know they cannot. Its usually a combination of ideology and ignorance. I was particularly amused buy the Bupa link to palliative care in their care homes - I have worked there and know how poor it is. Staff ratios are half the NHS units and 1/3 the hospice.
So Nickc never came back to try to defend his nonsense that the private sector trains its staff –
See my answer on page one.
Can't bear to admit you are wrong?
the private sector does not train staff. You claimed they did.
the private sector does not train staff. You claimed they did.
No. I didn't, feel free to point out where I did. All I said was not all doctors are publicly trained.
i considered it farily seriously a while ago, and decided not to. save the money and if you need a test quick just pay for it privately, you can get in straight away, next day pre covid, few days nowadays. its not as expensive as you'd think, probably 300 for a scan i had last year
Teej - remember why you got banned last time? Just, you know, saying that it might be time to take a breath fella.
[quote=nickc] Not all doctors and nurses are publicly trained
So please back this up and tell me what non public training paths are available for nurses and doctors that are not in the state universities and NHS hospitals.
Yup IHN
I will drop this. I have proven both nickc and boarding bob are talking bobbins.
Nickc - this is my lack of knowledge but I cannot see how a doctor could not be publicly trained.
The whole training of a doctor is structured around exposure to all areas with more specialist training in as you progress. It would be impossible to get that structured training with exposure to all disciplines outside of the NHS. A minimum of 8 yrs training
Ok some doctors may have trained overseas and then come in to the UK, but not many in the scheme of things
Personally I have no problem with NHS staff going to work in private land. The NHS should just respect its own staff more and pay wages that encourage them to stay
if you need a test quick just pay for it privately, you can get in straight away, next day pre covid, few days nowadays. its not as expensive as you’d think, probably 300 for a scan i had last year
I think that is a very astute way to look at it (of course I couldn’t possibly suggest that working for the NHS)
TJ. I really not going to have the virtual equivalent of a pub argument with you over this while you get increasingly angry Your animus over a perfectly legal and useful industry is not justified, nor is it rational.
I'm not going to get involved in this thread again, I'd suggest you do the same. If you PM me to try to carry on, I'll report it.
nickc – this is my lack of knowledge but I cannot see how a doctor could not be publicly trained.
Ok some doctors may have trained overseas and then come in to the UK
You've just answered your own question.
I am just calling you out on your nonsense. All UK trained doctors and nurses are trained by the state. all of them. there is no other training pathway.
I think everyone else can clearly see that you do not want to admit you are wrong.
Oh - I am not angry BTW - just frustrated by ignorance shown
I will drop this.
That went about as well as expected...
FFS TJ give it a rest. All you're doing is coming over as a sanctimonious prat. In all honesty, you're like this on most of the threads you contribute to and it devalues any points you're trying to make.