[Closed] HDMI cables. Worth spending a bit extra?

hilarious

Why dont you get your Blu Ray player and your HD projector set up and try swapping between a cheap 10m cable and a decent 10m cable?

damo.............i love customers like you...... 😉

because it's a human listening to them.

Or maybe its timing? [url= http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/ ]http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/[/url]

damo.............i love customers like you.....

Why don't you tell us your shop/store? Maybe I'll buy something?

I don't see why you can't tell us?

Send the audio direct from source to av amp via optical if your souce/amp has it.

And you can set an audio delay on a sky box - have you tried that?

Audio delay makes it worse, as the picture comes out before the audio - as I said if anything we need picture delay. Apparently the device has an "auto lip sync" feature I'm gonna try, but it looks like it only delays the audio. Apparently the Panasonic ARC/Viera Link may need a 1.4 cable, the one I have is a 1.3a if that makes any difference? Gonna ring em up to see what type it actually needs as the manual is bloody useless!

It seems to work fine and in sync using the RCA Aux output from the tv into the Aux input of the amp which makes me think the ARC feature just isn't good enough. Ok so I could just make do and use the aux but the amp doesn't default to aux and takes ages to switch between input sources, and ARC allows you to control everything through 1 remote which is nice. Plus it turns the amp on and off when the tv is switched.

Considering we paid about £500 for the cinema system we shouldn't have to compromise and use the aux and not benefit from the ARC/Viera Link features.. which is what I'll tell Panasonic tomorrow.

The wikipedia page for HDMI standards says that 1.3 versions don't support Audio Return Channel, yet 1.4 versions do, so this could be the problem.

Or maybe its timing? http://www.stereophile.com/features/368/

Are there [b][i]any[/i][/b] facts/science in that article from [u]1993[/u]?

I did like this bit...

why don't poor (high-jitter) transports all have the same sonic signature? What mechanisms create such a broad palate of sonic flavors? There are two possible answers. The first is that, besides the bits and the timing of those bits, sound quality is influenced by a third, unknown factor.

Audio delay makes it worse, as the picture comes out before the audio - as I said if anything we need picture delay. Apparently the device has an "auto lip sync" feature I'm gonna try, but it looks like it only delays the audio. Apparently the Panasonic ARC/Viera Link may need a 1.4 cable, the one I have is a 1.3a if that makes any difference? Gonna ring em up to see what type it actually needs as the manual is bloody useless!

It seems to work fine and in sync using the RCA Aux output from the tv into the Aux input of the amp which makes me think the ARC feature just isn't good enough. Ok so I could just make do and use the aux but the amp doesn't default to aux and takes ages to switch between input sources... considering we paid about £500 for the cinema system we shouldn't be doing this.. which is what I'll tell Panasonic tomorrow.

Not sure then, maybe worth speaking to SKY as perhaps the box is slow processing audio. Is it only on HD channels? Maybe you have this issue? [url= http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/123963.aspx ]http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/123963.aspx[/url]

@higgo - like I said, try it, best way to satisfy yourself with facts/science.

@higgo - like I said, try it, best way to satisfy yourself with facts/science.

And some double-blind testing...

If you have a friend willing...

ARC is carring audio back upstream from the TV to the amp via HDMI to save you using a second cable (eg, TOSlink). I'm struggling to see how any form of source > TV > amp configuration is a great idea.

In an ideal world, your AV amp should be doing all the switching and the only thing going to your TV should be the amp.

In my case I have a HDMI TV but a last-gen (non-HDMI) amp, so to change sources I've to change the picture on the set and the audio at the amp. It's no great hassle for me though as I've been doing it for years - back when I installed it all (on an SD telly) 10 years ago I took the decision to separate out audio and run video direct; thinking was the fewer devices I went through, the better the picture I'd get.

Yeah I just rang up panasonic and they said the ARC is only really designed to work with the built in freeview tuner, and the processors in the tv/amp can't cope with it to get it all in sync. Recommended I use the sky's optical audio output straight into the amp so I've just ordered an optical cable 🙂

You know, I'm [i]sure [/i]I've heard that somewhere before...

(-:

I was hoping the ARC would work properly so it would all be convenient and could all be used through 1 remote, auto power on/off etc, but it looks like even with a £500 system (plus about £900 for the telly) you can't get this 😕 Bit crap but I guess we'll have to use the "old fashioned" methods til they can sort it out!

Recommended I use the sky's optical audio output straight into the amp so I've just ordered an optical cable

I think we told you that! 😉

Cougar - have you thought about buying a Logitech Harmony remote? They're not perfect (they take a while to set up and introduce a slight delay to remote commands) but they do reliably give you one button press to change device.

You don't need to super expensive ones - the Harmony 600 at £50 would probably do the job.

not read all this, sorry, not sure if this has been asked but Ton where do you work, i am just about to buy a blu ray player and would rather give ca$h to someone I knew

Matt
(email in profile)

I was hoping the ARC would work properly so it would all be convenient and could all be used through 1 remote, auto power on/off etc, but it looks like even with a £500 system (plus about £900 for the telly) you can't get this Bit crap but I guess we'll have to use the "old fashioned" methods til they can sort it out!

If you want everything to be nicely integrated, shared remotes, hidden cables etc etc then you have to be looking at B&O. Just don't ask here if its worth it!

not read all this, sorry, not sure if this has been asked but Ton where do you work, i am just about to buy a blu ray player and would rather give ca$h to someone I knew

Matt

Isn't Ton the one who said he buying things for £2.50 and sells for £49?! I wouldn't give him my money!

I did ask where he worked but obviously wouldn't say.

have you thought about buying a Logitech Harmony remote?

I have. Really for me now though, it's good money after bad. What I need (and want) is a new amp.

Last time I looked at the Harmonies, there seemed to be a bewildering number of models in the range. Logitech's website was a bit thin on explaining the differences and I thought "you know what, I don't care that much" and closed the page. (-:

I have. Really for me now though, it's good money after bad. What I need (and want) is a new amp.

Last time I looked at the Harmonies, there seemed to be a bewildering number of models in the range. Logitech's website was a bit thin on explaining the differences and I thought "you know what, I don't care that much" and closed the page. (-:

If you buy a new amp same brand as your tv you may find it has some of the main controls on the remote for your tv? or vice versa?

Ten years ago, I could program my Yamaha remote to control the Sony DVD player and Sony TV (but didn't because it was horrible), and the DVD remote to control the TV and the amp.

If I can't do that now, even across disparate makes (ultimately I'm going to have a Sony BD player, Toshiba TV and Yamaha amp), I shall be somewhat vexed.

In fact,

The old DVD is long since decomissioned, but I'm still using the DVD remote to control volume on the amp and (if I have the amp switched off cos it's late) the TV, because it's a preferable controller to the steaming pile of excrement that Yamaha called a remote.

Remote design is defo lacking, love my Denon AV amp but the remote must have been designed by a 12 year old on work experience.

Sorry I read that he said there was no difference between the two not he buys at £2.50 and sells at £45

I thought I made a mistake, but he defo said:

ones i sell at £49.99 cost me £2.50

Oh

I did ask where he worked but obviously wouldn't say

is this still going on.............. 😆

Oh I know I suspect he does not trust you and thinks you may inform his employer - sadly it has happened before on here a number of times. The bit where you called them unscrupolous is a bit of a clue to your attitude. Why unscruppulous in parting a fool from his money? I have the cheap one which works just as well yet you have the thrill of a superior product because you paid more it. win win for everyone surely. I mean if it was only 50 p more the placebo effect would be so much poorer so you need to pay silly money surely?

It's unscrupulous because he is just charging an excessive margin. Taking a cheap product and marking up 20 times or so.

Now a manufacturer may well make something for a cost of production of say £2.50 and sell on for £49 and it finally end up in retail for say £149. But the manufacturer is incurring other costs along the way, R&D, Marketing etc etc and likely net margin is less than 10%.

It seems to me that all he is doing is taking a cheap product, marking up and conning customers that really a responsible retailer (with scruples) should be advising.

As I mentioned before, no manufacturer would allow their products to be marked up in such a way. Thus I suspect the post is bogus or he is just importing from somewhere and selling on eBay etc.

The economics behind my last para is that imagine there was a manufacturers who was selling something to a retailer for £2.50 but knew it could be sold at retail for £49.

What would they do?

😆

So it is ok to be conned as long as the manufacturer does the conning and not the retailer? In fact you can pay more than three times the price from Ton and still consider it fair 😯

What would they do?

The theoretical issue is that any cable has capacitance, and shielded cables have more. A digital signal is a square wave. Pass a square wave through a capacitor and the waveform is rounded off, particularly on the trailing edges. Once the signal diverges too far from the original errors will creep in as it is misinterpreted - and the higher the sampling rate, the more likely that is. HOWEVER the very good news is that the capacitances in home cable runs are so small that they're insignificant, so a cheap cable will work just as well as a hideously expensive one as long as the plugs fit well (but HDMI is much less problematic than SCART).

With long cable runs the capacitance is a big issue, which is why you get slow broadband when you're a long way from the exchange (where things then go from electrical to optical).

I know it reads like he knows what he is saying but honestly we all know that you can tell the difference and it is not your fault that science cannot measure the REAL performance difference that you can detect 😆

So ton can you sort us a samsung blu ray?

mat........we do not sell them mate.
to be honest, places like asda/tesco's are the best for stuff like that.
returns policy is fantastic compared to small specialist places.

I used to install hi end home theatre kit in a previous life.

There is a difference in the operation of HDMI cable at different quality levels and distances.

I rarely detected performance advantages from spending more money - the difference was the signal would work or it didn't.

We used some 10m> Chord cables a lot as the cheaper Vivanco models or generic Chinese style ones simply didnt work between certain models of DVD players (Pioneers were a ball ache even with their own screens) and Sky boxes.

At that time as well you were getting a lot of D to A to D conversion going on as well so it did make a difference.

Plus certain brands liked being pulled between floors and ceilings and some just fell apart. The more expensive ones were better and fitted the end sockets better too.

That was from practical experience.

The Digital is perfect stuff is nonsense, DECT phones, DAB, etc all have problems. Digital is not perfect.

Personally anything over 5m and i would go up a quality notch, anything below then bog standard works for me.

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.

Ton, can you suggest a 5.1 system that's excellent at music, sub £2k? 🙂

Ton, can you suggest a 5.1 system that's excellent at music, sub £2k?

I think he recommended Asda/Tesco for buying HiFi/AV

Ton, can you suggest a 5.1 system that's excellent at music, sub £2k?

I think he recommended Asda/Tesco for buying HiFi/AV

Laugh at people stupid enough to pay that price?
Join in the ripping off of you?
I know engineers who make the carpet strips and the tile edging they were on 29 p each last time I asked and they retailed at over a tenner. I believe it is called risk reward - the manufactures deffo sells all they make the shop may not sell all they buy.

It was actually an intellectual question that clearly went over your head.

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about.

I agree

I rarely detected performance advantages from spending more money - the difference was the signal would work or it didn't

you said

I noticed a massive difference

It was actually an intellectual question that clearly went over your head.

Trust me if the signal is dropping and you are experiencing ghosting or pixelating (or whatever its called, its like kind of bits go out of sync) on a run from your source to your projector then you will notice a massive difference when switching to decent cables. As I did.

You'd know if you actaully had a projector or a blu ray source in any decent size room that the cable run is likely to be 10m plus.

On the techie side of things as far as I can see although the signals are digital, the stuff is coming down the wire so fast that the first 'bit' gets about 100cm along the cable before the next one starts 😯 . That's ok for short runs but the longer the cable the more difficult it is to keep the clock and signal together and eventually they will start to no longer match up. Add reflections at the point where the cable plugs in and sharp bends and it gets clear why digital isn't really so clear cut as you might think...

But for short runs a cable that is made and tested to the most recent spec should work

You have to remember though as well that some manufacturers adherence to 'Standards' isn't all that.

Plus, the direction thing, that can be a factor... some kit combos prefer being grounded at source end, in this case direction would be very important as the start of the cable would have the grounded shield.

The point wasn't "digital is perfect" so much as "either it works or it doesn't."

You're not going to get a slightly fuzzy picture from a cheap HDMI cable like you might from a cheap SCART cable. You'll either get a watchable picture, or you won't.

I think Ton is an honest chap, and maybe just maybe he is giving us a trade 'heads up'. I know he has sold stuff to those that have asked before, but I don't recall him trying to sell anything other than tank type used MTB stuff on the classifieds 😉

How I laughed when I saw this one. USB cable rather than HDMI but $299/m! [url= http://www.avguide.com/article/wireworld-introduces-reference-usb-audio-cables ]AV Guide USB reference cable[/url]

That's funny, but not as funny as the [url= http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-9967991-1.html ]$500 audio ethernet cable[/url]. Just shows there's one born every minute.