[Closed] Have we done the BAE shipyards yet?

I haven't seen anything on here. I thought that was a bit weird given the amount of effort give over to Grangemouth. Not hard to see where it'll end up though....

Southern jobs exchanged for Scottish votes... can't quite see why the Conservatives scuppered themselves, although I guess the 'Unionist' part of their name should be a clue - I guess I hadn't figured they really cared!

See - I was right.

Southern jobs exchanged for Scottish votes

And yes, struck me it was a give up without a fight...

But may not be in the uk in a year...

matt_outandabout - Member
And yes, struck me it was a give up without a fight...

fight for what? Orders that don't exist?

Agreed- but I thought that the two yards may have had some more protesting/striking/arguments going on.

Southern jobs exchanged for Scottish votes... can't quite see why the Conservatives scuppered themselves, although I guess the 'Unionist' part of their name should be a clue - I guess I hadn't figured they really cared!

I challenge you to find me someone who will vote for the Tories in Scotland because of this. Nonsense.

The fact they're saying that no contracts will be signed until after the referendum, tells you everything you need to know

This might well change the apathy and disinterest in the whole Scottish independence thing though. Now people will realise there are very real implications. And I doubt the Tories will get the reaction this cynical decision was meant to provoke. Again reinforcing the idea that decisions about Scotland are taken for political expediency in Westminster!*

I note that the insufferably smug, fat-faced one has been noticeable by his absense all day.

* join everyone else outside the South East on that score!

Isn't he awfully busy trying to find a world economy to which he can aspire since all his previous favourites went tits up binbins?

When politicians of ALL parties insist this is a purely commercial decision and in NO WAY a political one, you know exactly who is telling the truth.

Playing political games with peoples jobs - have we ever heard this before?

But in the context, and extraordinary one.

I note that the insufferably smug, fat-faced one has been noticeable by his absense all day.

Come now binbins, you [i]love[/i] him really, you must do, you're always talking about him.

I think he is in China binners. Sad day for 1,800 UK workers and their families.

[quote=Nobeerinthefridge ]
Come now binbins, you love him really, you must do, you're always talking about him.
Definitely a bit of bromance going on there.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]
Playing political games with peoples jobs - have we ever heard this before?
But in the context, and extraordinary one.
THM - has junkyard stolen your logon?

He may be a bloody clever politician. The shrewdest in the uk by a mile! But he's still a politician, and therefore the lowest form of human life!

Suprised initially but its a canny move by Westminster.. I know there are some sound business arguments for keeping the Scottish yards open but when you think that their only work comes from defense contracts these days it's pretty hard to doubt that Westminster didn't influence the decision. Feel bad for the workers at Portsmouth though.
I did hear the Scottish Secretary state during an interview quite blatantly that no decision would be made on the new destroyers till after the referendum result.
Whiffs a bit really- there there, we've let you keep both your shipyards open and heres a few patrol vessels to keep you going for a bit but you can forget about the destryers if you vote no..
I'm pro-independance and know that the Indy campaign are saying at least if we vote yes we'll deffo need 60 odd vessels to make up a navy (as opposed to possibly getting the new destroyers if we vote no) but I doubt very much that they'll all be bought and paid for until long after Scotland gets its independence..
Hmmm.

Southern jobs exchanged for Scottish votes...

So what about the 800 Scottish job losses? Were they exchanged for Scottish votes too? Portsmouth might lose shipbuilding, but it's keeping the maintenance side, and there are promises to expand that to make up for at least some of the job losses - that won't be happening in Scotland.

So please don't play the Scottish vs English game, because in this game everyone loses.

So please don't play the Scottish vs English game, because in this game everyone loses.

Agreed Ben, but in this case looks like there will be a lot of losers.

Scotroutes - no its all me! JY is arguing the toss on yet another religion bashing thread (with one of the greatest lines ever!)

I did hear the Scottish Secretary state during an interview quite blatantly that no decision would be made on the new destroyers till after the referendum result.

!!

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-24841577
Suppose its a good thing that the Portsmouth site will be kept open in some form as Ben rightly says..
Y'know, just in case like..

Nobeerinthefridge - Member

I challenge you to find me someone who will vote for the Tories in Scotland because of this. Nonsense.

They're not shooting for tory votes, even the messiah knows the party's dead and buried north of the border. They're after No votes. Which is interesting tbh, I'm a Yes voter but I'm pretty much convinced that we're going to lose. But Westminster clearly isn't.

The tightrope they have to walk with this is pretty damn narrow, though. Yes, English people the Clyde is definitely the best place to build them, purely on merit, not for political reasons, fear not. But scottish independence would change that, despite changing nothing but the politics. Hmmmmmmmm.

At the end of the day I think enough Scottish people remember Trident and Devonport to understand exactly what's happening here and what to make of the people doing it.

What was the script with Trident/Devonport then? The fact thst its too dangerous to have armed subs there because of the risk to the population but its ok to have them parked just down the road from Glasgow?

What was the script with Trident/Devonport then? The fact thst its too dangerous to have armed subs there because of the risk to the population but its ok to have them parked just down the road from Glasgow?

Personally I think that a nuclear accident might be quite an improvement in Glasgow

Potentially great news for Barrow in Furness, the town has had its heart slowly strangled for the last 20 years. Feel for the Portsmouth and Govan workers though.

Deary me Zokes.. what do you base that on then? (Might as well).
You dont work for Bae do you?

Deary me Zokes.. what do you base that on then?

Humour

"But scottish independence would change that, despite changing nothing but the politics. Hmmmmmmmm."

I'm not quite sure I understand that - it would change it a lot for me as it seems perfectly reasonable that ships for my country to be built using money from my country be built by people in my country.

From a cost etc perspective it may be best to consider India or China as a build base - ?

(*however, to be fair I've not yet seen a clear, accurate, fully detailed, legally binding definitive statement of how the actual 'resources' would be divided up) - I think we're getting the submarines though - aren't we ?

I'm a Yes voter but I'm pretty much convinced that we're going to lose. But Westminster clearly isn't.

🙁

Agreeing with you on this

From a cost etc perspective it may be best to consider India or China as a build base - ?

The ships might be cheaper, but that would mean no money re entering the UK economy from the build.

"The ships might be cheaper, but that would mean no money re entering the UK economy from the build."

? isn't it some peoples plan to not have a UK economy. (*see earlier comment re unclarity on what is actually being proposed)

Only a couple of years ago, the UK government was discussing some sort of arrangement with Turkey to have them build the T26s. We've just agreed to have South Korea build navy ships for us.

BAE is a complete joke. Sub standard, over priced and late projects over and over again.

Do you know the UK taxpayer will cover the cost of the redundancies?

Why do we keep any of these yards open anymore? We haven't with any of our other heavy industries?

We've just agreed to have South Korea build navy ships for us.

UK firms took part in the tender, but the Ministry of Defence (MoD) said none made a final bid to take part.

That is because nobody has the ability to build a ship of that size efficently anymore and the MoD is a nightmare to do business with.

I challenge you to find me someone who will vote for the Tories in Scotland because of this. Nonsense.

I could have been clearer, as per Northwind I meant referendum votes. This was the cause of my surprise - I too had figured that Yes was dead in the water, and didn't think the Conservatives really cared about the Union (given that they don't seem to gain any political power from it).

I also think it's reasonable that governments look to in-country providers before looking offshore, hence waiting until after the referendum to make the final decision.

Indeed - look at the Nimrod fiasco. They ended up each costing more than a space shuttle, and were then scrapped by JCBing the wings off.

Whiffs a bit really- there there, we've let you keep both your shipyards open and heres a few patrol vessels to keep you going for a bit but you can forget about the destryers if you vote no..

scotroutes - Member
Only a couple of years ago, the UK government was discussing some sort of arrangement with Turkey to have them build the T26s. We've just agreed to have South Korea build navy ships for us.

Massively off topic, you mind if I email you about that Scottish 4000 business? (Once I've formulated a rough route)

You seem to have a lot more knowledge than me on the options for linking the hills.

The fiasco of the Nimrod MRA4 is like something from a Tom Sharpe novel.

Somebody in the MoD thought it was a good idea and would be cheaper to utilise some old Comet fuselages that were hanging about somewhere than to build completely new aircraft. That was the primary source of the problems.

The list is almost endless:
Chinook Mk 3
SA 80
T45 destroyer
Astute Class

Billions of pounds pissed away to protect [s]"British Jobs".[/s]big business revenues.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_complex ]Military Industrial Complex[/url]

The ships might be cheaper, but that would mean no money re entering the UK economy from the build.

althepal - Member

What was the script with Trident/Devonport then? The fact thst its too dangerous to have armed subs there because of the risk to the population but its ok to have them parked just down the road from Glasgow?

Nah, the other way round- Rosyth and Devonport both bidded for Trident maintenance, the work was given to Devonport to buy votes even though everyone knew their bid was impossibly low. Devonport underbid Rosyth by buttons then went hundreds of millions overbudget.

Markie - Member

didn't think the Conservatives really cared about the Union (given that they don't seem to gain any political power from it).

They get the financial gain from Scotland without the political hassle of having to give a crap about scottish people, sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

financial gain from Scotland

What's that then?

winston_dog - Member

financial gain from Scotland

What's that then?

Posted 7 minutes ago # Report-Post

You have seen the changes made to the line of the UK territorial waters?

[URL= http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/theboydonald/sea-grab_zpsca7c3463.jp g" target="_blank">http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc223/theboydonald/sea-grab_zpsca7c3463.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Wonder why they felt they had to do that?

financial gain from Scotland
What's that then?

With 8.4% of the UK population Scotland - on average - raises 9.1% of taxation

I know a few folks that work at the Naval Base in P'mth, must catch up with them to get thier view. Both work on maintenance so maybe it won't affect them too much, well considering the maintenance and refits are still going to happen here..
I'd say it's probably for the best, keep all the grubby jobs for the Scots and the more sophisticated jobs for the Southerners*

*this may not be true, I'm just taking the mickey... 😀

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average.

Which is an interesting fact, but more than cancelled out by the higher revenue per head Scotland also produces. But then you know that 😉

Wait until Billy the Fish gets his way and we get divorced.

Then we will see how everything pans out.

The amount of Scots that kept telling me in the 90's how many small EU states have made such a go of it, Iceland, Ireland etc. That Ingerland was just holding them back....

The amount of Scots that kept telling me in the 90's how many small EU states have made such a go of it, Iceland, Ireland etc. That Ingerland was just holding them back....

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

Zokes- my apologies.. you forgot the :-)!
Wrecker-it whiffs of being condescending at best, threatening at worst. Reminds me a bit of the tactics used in the 70s and hindsight shows we were shafted back then..
On one hand the clyde is being hailed by westminster as the best place to build the T26s, but on the other hand, should we become independant you can forget it..funny how fickle folk can be.
I imagine that if there wasn't a referendum next year this discussion would be a lot different..

considering salmond pops his head up at any time the words job loss and scotland are in close proximity his silence is quite amusing.

probably coming to terms with the fact that westminister have totally scuppered his chances of becoming King of the North

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

That is some interpretations of events!!!!

A lot of this comes from BAE stiffing the MoD over the QE carriers.
Ark being binned early was because of that too.
As a contractor in there I've seen first hand how BAE operate and they aren't nice.....

His number 2 has been getting involved in his absence but I'm sure we'll hear from him at some point soon regarding it all. Already admitted I'm a yes supporter so will be interesting to hear his take on it.

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

You mean nothing to do with their complete lack of understanding of financial risk and piss poor regulation?

That is some interpretations of events!!!!

Well it is of course a massive simplification but I'm not trying to win the internets or anything.

Are they not prosperous small nations then?

As an aside: now BAE are getting shut of thousands of people who actually make stuff, do you think they'll also be getting rid of lots of the massive salaried, former MOD management too.... ?

kimbers - Member

probably coming to terms with the fact that westminister have totally scuppered his chances of becoming King of the North

You think so? TBH I see it the other way round, the No campaign have always made lots of noise about how independence would endanger dockyard jobs but this has just made it clear how unsafe they are even in the union- even with this contract it's still 800 job losses and no long-term certainty, and an open admission of how happy they are to play politics with people's lives. It just shows up the weakness of that whole argument, Westminster's good at threatening to take things away but rubbish at actually delivering the carrot.

Sorry rich, my comment was a bit sarcy, but you could have chosen better examples of small successful nations than two who bankrupted themselves (wth a little help from their friends) !!!!

On one hand the clyde is being hailed by westminster as the best place to build the T26s, but on the other hand, should we become independant you can forget it..funny how fickle folk can be.

Oh aye wrecker-agree with what you're saying and understand the point- I just dont like it.

I just dont like it.

Ah, Ireland. Osborne's Celtic Tiger, the 'shining example', the 'Irish Miracle', from which 'We have much to learn'.

😆

Per capita GDP:

Iceland: $41,739
Ireland: $45,888

UK: $39,049

Just saying like

There's always the double edged thing with shipbuilding which brings Robert Wyatt, Elvis Costello and other voices into my head.

Hey, in other news on the jobs front, [url= http://www.nsg.com/en/media/announcements-2013/reduction-in-architectural-float-glass-capacity-in-europe ]NSG close Pilkington Cowley Hill site[/url], 140 more jobs go.

Where's a building boom taking place? Or does it lag the demand for mortgages?

A lot of this comes from BAE stiffing the MoD over the QE carriers.
Ark being binned early was because of that too.
As a contractor in there I've seen first hand how BAE operate and they aren't nice.....

Nail on head.

This is BAE through and through. When they took over the VT shipyard at Portsmouth, you might as well have hanged a sign saying "Lose hope all ye who enter."

We used to build ships for others, but that largely disappeared in the 80's(I wonder why 🙄 ) So, all these shipyards were relying on was what the MOD was going to give them, which since the cuts to the defence budget, wasn't going to be very much.

Add to that, that BAE has been allowed to swallow up defence company after defence company, almost forming a monopoly, along with the intentional practice of bidding low for contracts and getting more money for the contract it goes tits up, brings us to where we are today.

If the business model continues, i.e, only building for the UK MOD, then the two shipyards in Scotland will more then likely close if Scotland goes independent. BAE will make a purely business based decision, like they have just done.

So Scotland loses jobs and an industry, and while the rest of the UK can get by with re-starting at Portsmouth and Barrow, it leaves me with one conclusion: Regardless of nationality, BAE shafts everyone in the end.

I suppose we could ask the French to build our complex warships for us by their STATE OWNED ship building company, that also exports to foreign customers...

You say that as if Iceland and Ireland are somehow failed states rather than prosperous small nations that had a big one off fluctuation due to a GLOBAL financial crisis

I've seen some "romantic revisions" of events in my time, but this has to be among the best.

Saying what exactly?

Why pick a random figure (youdid also check the trends in GDP per capita) and ignore the fact that you are highlighting two economies that have just gone though catastrophic periods of crisis/failure. The most interesting point is the different routes they chose to try to exit. Are you suggesting that Scotland needs to understand both in preparation for their turn!?!?!

actually THM i was hoping youd weigh in on the GDP stuff, why is uk so poor on that?

even adjusted for PPP (i had to look that up) weve always been crapper than Ireland and Iceland
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/countries

[img] ?s=gbrnygdppcapppcd[/img]
[img] ?s=islnygdppcapppcd[/img]
[img] ?s=irlnygdppcapppcd[/img]

and we are ranked lower on happiness etc on the OECD scales and have lower life expectancy!

Add to that, that BAE has been allowed to swallow up defence company after defence company, [s]almost[/s] forming a monopoly,

FTFY

BAE are an absolute disgrace. A load of ex MoD civil servants and ex forces old boys looking after each other.

This has a bit of bias but is very interesting [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lions-Donkeys-Dinosaurs-Blundering-Military/dp/0099484420/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383827164&sr=1-1&keywords=lions+donkeys+and+dinosaurs ]Lions Donkeys and Dinosaurs[/url]

Kimbers, just go back and see what the drivers of GDP per capita are/were? Ask yourself, are they/were they sustainable? Were they just (ever so slightly!) un-balanced (true in all three cases actually).

At best Iceland and Ireland are good examples of how rel. small economies can be very vulnerable to unbalanced and unsustainable growth drivers and unable to deal with the consequencies that may result. They also give different case studies on how to deal with (in effect) national bankruptcies. I would not want to wish that on Scotland but there a lessons to be learned.

But re the UK, the hit to GDP per capita has been more severe in the current recession than in previous ones for various reasons. The simplest is that population growth has been much more (@4%) than in previous recessions. As we all know the hit to average incomes has also been relatively high with a knock on effect on consumption....And inflation has also been relatively high making the hit to nominal household income even worse. There's more, but that will do for now!!!

Northwind - Member
Which is an interesting fact, but more than cancelled out by the higher revenue per head Scotland also produces. But then you know that

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

...although if you break that down into more comperably sized regions of the UK you'd get a different picture. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

fr0sty125 - Member

Actually if you look at the 2011-12 Treasury data public spending is 23% higher per capita in Scotland comapared to the UK average while Scotland only raises 8.3% more tax revenue compared with the UK average.

Apples and oranges.

Is there a Mebbe option in he referendum ? I won't vote Yes, but voting No seems a bit, well, negative. I think I would vote Mebbe tho. Perhaps I spoil my vote ? Draw a big picture of a willie ?

[img] [/img]

Piemonster - email away

hels - Member

Draw a big picture of a willie ?

I could be wrong but I've heard that in UK elections though you're asked to mark with an X, any clear mark is acceptable to show your preference- so be careful where you cast your knob.

scotroutes - Member
Piemonster - email away

😀

hels -- Mebbe was really the DevoMax option I'd have said.
I think there was horse trading (as always) so that Eck was allowed to form the words, but couldn't have the third way as option.

I suppose SNP are the party of independence rather than federalism, and I suppose it would have fragmented the vote (maybe ATV system) but I can see many folk (probably incl me) that would hestitate to vote Yes, feel No is a bit mouseish, but would want more devolved powers..