[Closed] Gus O'Donnell's inquiry into Liam Fox.

Hmmm, fun to see how this thread develops!

The Fox story will be interesting too - probably a lot of dirt to be dished up across both sides of the HoC

What did Fox have to do with labour?

Nowt to do with this story but did anyone see the ex. President of Olympus being interviewed yesterday?
Worked for Olympus for 30 years, made President of the company. Queried what had happened to 630 million dollars that was paid into an untraceable company on the Cayman islands. Sacked 2 weeks later.

"to be published today will not identify those who funded Dr Liam Fox's self-styled adviser"

Ian - read this:

GRAPHICS8.NYTIMES.COM "http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/20111018/letter-text.pdf"

It's it like when rouge builders charge £10,000 to replace a tile on your roof, but just on a grander scale 🙂

rouge builders

is that like real builders but with a weekend name and a second wardrobe?

i saw Independance Day

the government need to syphon off money to fund investigations into aliens and stuffs.

Lifer - its simple - both parties have historically opposed greater transparency on lobbyists. It doesn't take much imagination to understand why. I think that the LF story has a long way to go and it will unearth stories of possible criminal activity, deceipt, lies, hypocricy....yes, modern politics!!

I read somewhere today that there was an alleged link between one of LF's backers and the LP. But I can't find the link. But that is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. When we understand the full extent of lobbyist's activities we will be shocked.

This is an X-party issue, hence the desire to keep a lid on it!

Are they builders who wear make up?

Lifer - Member

What did Fox have to do with labour?

teamhurtmore is following a classic Tory strategy. This story has zilch to do with Labour but is deeply embarrassing for the Tories, so they have to somehow suggest that Labour are also in some obscure way implicated.

teamhurtmore makes deliberately vague and unsubstantiated claims such as [i]"I read somewhere today that there was an alleged link between one of LF's backers and the LP. But I can't find the link"[/i] to put ideas into people's heads, ie : "the Tories are no different in this case than any other politician".

Note the use of "somewhere", "alleged", and "I can't find the link", to cover his arse in case someone asks for evidence.

This story particularly stinks because it involves not some sleazy Tory maverick individual as you might expect, but a whole gaggle of very senior leading Tory politicians, including five Tory government ministers - Liam Fox, George Osborne, William Hague, Michael Gove and Chris Grayling.

And let's be clear what's at the heart of this story - it involves very senior Tory politicians offering themselves as advisers to an organisation which fraudulently claimed to be a charity - with the deliberate intention of defrauding the British taxpayer. They claimed tax relief which they would not have been entitled to had they not made false claims of being a charity.

When it became abundantly clear after many years that Atlantic Bridge was not engaged in charitable work of any sort, the Charity Commission demanded that they cease all their current activities and complied with the legal requirement of charitable objectives. Knowing it would be quite impossible for them to operate within a legal framework, the slippery Tories chose instead to dissolve Atlantic Bridge.

I'm sure Messrs Fox, Osborne, Hague, Gove, and Grayling, would be among the first to demand no tolerance of benefit cheats who make fraudulent claims. However tax cheats who make fraudulent claims, at the expense of the taxpayer, appear to be treated somewhat more leniently. Presumably top Tory politicians in government have special dispensation to cheat on the British taxpayer.

Yup, very embarrassing for the Tories. And it stinks.

So Ernie - Lots of faux outrage, but no mention of Labour and the Union Modernisation funds there then 😆

Or how about the Smith Institute?

http://order-order.com/tag/smith-institute/

Now look what you have done Ernie - brought Zulu out of the woodwork with some strange point that has no relation to the point under discussion

Its classic right wing methodology, people were caught doing something bad, "yeah but other people have done worse things so that makes us not as bad as you thought" its the argument of the mentally weak.

So Ernie - Lots of faux outrage, but no mention of Labour and the Union Modernisation funds there then

Or how about the Smith Institute?

My dictionary of fancy posh words tells me that "faux" means false. There is nothing "false" about my comment, and I'm not even expressing "outrage".......where did you get that from ? Although it has to be said I am genuinely surprised that very senior Tory politicians should have been so daft as to back this dodgy venture - I wouldn't have expected it, and they seem suitably embarrassed.

And what's this "no mention of Labour" eh ? Yesterday you were accusing me of being a Liberal Democrat, are you today accusing me of being a Labour supporter ? What will it be tomorrow.....the first thing that comes into your head ?

With references to other organisations that come under the Charity Commission's radar, yes plenty do - it's often a thin line between charitable and political work, as War on Want are particularly aware of. And Thatcher ironically, clamped down lot in this area when she was PM.

In the case of the Smith Institute :

[i]A commission spokesman said: "We opened a case – not a formal investigation – to look in to these concerns, and received the trustees' full co-operation with this process. The case was closed in March 2002, at which time we advised the trustees that they must be vigilant as to how they advance the charity's objectives."[/i]

This does not even vaguely compare with Atlantic Bridge which never did any charitable work from the day it was established. And after many years of engaging in purely political activity the Charity Commission instructed it to cease "immediately" its activities and to comply with the legally required charitable objectives. The senior Tories chose instead to dissolve it - which shows that it was clearly just a scam.

And btw if any senior Labour politicians engaged in simular tax cheating scams/fraud it would not be in any way more acceptable - specially they had mounted a campaign against benefit cheats/fraud.

ernie-lynch, I love the way you dive into assumptions about my (and other people's) political allegiances (particularly in light of your post above). Perhaps you a physcic - in which congratulations, you have proved that physcics are charlatans. I noticed that you failed to quote the next sentence in which I state that the link was irrelevant. Quite convenient that!!

The Liam Fox affair is a major embarassment for the government without doubt and it will be fun to see the spin they put on it. But, my point was fundamentally different and [b]APOLITICAL [/b]- I think this will lead to reviews that will throw up a lot of dirt about lobbying across both sides of the house. I was suspicious that both the Tories and Labour had tried to quash inquiries on this topic in the past.

If you read carefully - that was my point. It has nothing to do with making a defence for the Tories, even though you seem quick to judge my intentions and allegiances.

But it will be very hypocritical of any politician to make a big thing of one case if they themselves are up to their necks. Let Outraged from STW do that!!

I'd like to read that report but I suppose it'll be a massive, detailled word-a-thon that mere punters like me haven't the necessary time nor fine grasp of intricacies of Whitehall detail

eh ❓

it's only a couple of sides of A4, you say ? For a fortnight's work ?!

I might just apply to be a top civil servant

teamhurtmore - but it is political - this is a number of senior tories in an organised attempt to circumvent charities law and to disguise political lobbying.

there may be some lobbying from labour but nothing on the scale of this or other tory "lobbyists"

so to try to claim that all parties are as bad is a clear attempt to divert attention from the wrong doers here

The most surprising thing is that anyone is surprised; the Tories, they don't just **** the poor you know.

So, are unions not essentially just professional lobbyists TJ?

Particularly when they directly fund the Labour party... and elect its leader!

unions are really rather more than that

TJ - you are as bad as Ernie. I have not said that all parties are as bad. I have no idea about that. I am suspicious that both the Tories and Labour have in the past tried to divert attention from this issue. This makes me suspicious of them BOTH. So perhaps, you could accuse me of playing a LibDem card and in that case, I would be making a political point. But I doubt that they are clean either.

I am not diverting attention from the Tories in any way. As I said, I will be intrigued to see how they try to get themselves out of this deep hole.

TJ - I look forward to confirming that the strength of your conviction is justified. This is a bold comment, when I doubt you really know yourself.

there may be some lobbying from labour but nothing on the scale of this or other tory "lobbyists"

Scardeypants - its actually very short and easy to read - but a little bit more than 2 pages of A4

CABINETOFFICE.GOV.UK "http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/allegations-fox.pdf"

The stench of corruption hangs extremely heavy over this pitiful country of ours at present. What really gets me is the fact that Fox will retain his position as an MP, might even bounce back into a cabinet post when all the shit has died down, and will most certainly strutt the public arena for some considerable time, AND ALL despite the proven fact that he has misused his public office and openly abused public trust.

Chator, the MP convicted of expenses claims criminality was on TV the other night saying that there were 120 MPs who had done exactly as he had, yet there had been no investigation into them and no prosecutions. Some of those scumbags are still there ruling over us, and more importantly, making the very rules and proceedures by which they will NEVER be judged.

The stench of corruption hangs extremely heavy over this pitiful country of ours at present.

Indeed it does. Perhaps the BBC could put Liam Fox, Peter Mandleson and Mark "Furry" Oaten on QT this week and supply the audience with (metaphorical) rotten fruit. 😉

Teamhurtmore

Name me a Labour politician who has behaved like this - and let me know when the labour party quashed an investigation into lobbying.

Ta

While the re is a whiff of corruption over the labour party it is infinitesimal to the stench from the Tories. The health secretary is dismantling the NHS to prepare it for privatisation having received a lot of money from the companies who will benefit. Just one example

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/18/liam-fox-report-unanswered-questions

TJ - 2006. Bill introduced by LibDems on compulsory register of lobbyists. Ed Milliband and 284 Labour MPs voted against it.

Have you forgotten Byers, Hoon, Hewitt ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8582093.stm)?

But I do not want to be accused on an anti-Labour stance here (as before). The simple point is that there is a bad smell throughout Westminster on this one. At the moment, the greatest stench is coming from the government for sure but a party that allows Peter Mandleson to still present himself as a party grandee is hardly on firm foundations.

Hence I agree with billyboy's first comment and stand by my original APOLITICAL position.

+1 on Byers, Hoon, Hewitt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Cash_for_Influence_Scandal

Your memory is short or selective TJ.

its the standard career ladder for politicians
be an mp, make a load of contacts in business
move up to the lords, or just move into your exec director position at various amoral companies usually to do with oil/ weapons/tobacco/gambling/alcohol/insurance/etc
then use your influence to make money for your new friends

the main difference with the labour cash for questions set up is that those mps were all due stand down

liam fox had no such plans and was undoubtedly set on being PM((hey if gordon managed it!) and werrity was obviously making money off this even if this 'report' has washed fox white

traditionally the torries have always been closer to business nulabours rightwing stance obviously blurred those lines 😉

those mps were all due stand down

So that's OK then ? And how long had they been on the take prior to being found out ?

all the pies - well spotted.

Nothing like the level of this but it was a similar thing.

Chator, the MP convicted of expenses claims criminality was on TV the other night saying that there were 120 MPs who had done exactly as he had, yet there had been no investigation into them and no prosecutions

Chaytor only plead guilty to avid putting his family into the witness box and then incriminating them as active in the fraud he committed. For whatever reason they only tried to prosecute him on a fraction of the fraud he committed, I'm not sure how many MP's paid their sons council tax by switching their second house for six months. As for the others, they should have been prosecuted as well.

One day Kinnock will go down as the greatest fraudster, the rest are fighting for chicken feed

how long before i cant say, only that that they were caught out then
it seems they were planning for their retirement, which is still very wrong

fox was caught with his trousers round his ankles midcareer, ignoring warnings from within parliament and the MOD imho displaying an even greater contempt for the rules and the electorate

edit while gove, hague and osbornes 'work' for atlantic bridge is what cameron is trying to hide here
they were all on the exec board of this entity set up as a 'charity' so that neocon hedge fund millionaires/tobacco/arms firms/mossad!?? could dodge tax and influence uk policy

but its ok we're about to be diverted with a referendum on europe so this will hopefully all go away

Have you forgotten Byers, Hoon, Hewitt

And lets not forget the cosy relationships with the Hinduja brothers, Bernie Ecclestone, et al 😀

teamhurtmore - Member

ernie-lynch, I love the way you .........

[img] [/img]

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The Gus O'Donnell inquiry into Liam Fox, which this thread is about, concerns the behaviour of one, now former, Tory cabinet minister. It doesn't concern the behaviour of politicians from any other parties.

If a story breaks concerning a politician from any other party, then discuss it when that happens. Presumable there will be a little bit more evidence than [i]"somewhere", "alleged",[/i] and [i]"I can't find the link"[/i]

Right-wingers like you teamhurtmore, and yes I'm making an assumption and pointing an excusing finger - you [i]are[/i] a right-winger, might well want to deflect criticism against a Tory government with the "Labour are just as bad" strategy, but unfortunately for you it doesn't appear in this instance, to wash with the general public.

The first opinion poll since Fox's resignation :

[url= http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jLSqB78zZy6HqUQpPjO3Q8Al_3cQ?docId=N0126511318878160197A ]Labour takes eight-point poll lead[/url]

[i]Labour has opened up its [u]biggest lead over the Conservatives since last year's general election[/u], according to an opinion poll.

The Populus poll for The Times gives the Labour Party an eight-point advantage over the Tories while support for the Liberal Democrats has dropped into single percentage figures.

The poll puts Labour on 41%, three points up on last month, while the Conservatives are down one point on 33%, and the Lib Dems down four to 8% - [u]the lowest levels of support for the two Government parties in a Populus poll since they went into coalition together[/u].

The findings suggest that support for the two parties has been hit by concerns about the economy as well the [u]fallout from the resignation of former defence secretary Liam Fox.[/u][/i]

You would do your cause more good if instead of the intellectually bankrupt argument "Labour are just as bad", you argued that this sort of shenanigans was totally unacceptable, and that you were particularly "disappointed" that a Tory minister should behave in such a manner. Just a tip like....... a lot of people quite like honesty.

Although for obvious reasons it doesn't come too naturally to a Tory.

The stench of corruption hangs extremely heavy over this pitiful country of ours at present. What really gets me is the fact that Fox will retain his position as an MP, [s]might even[/s] [i]will definitely[/i] bounce back into a cabinet post when all the shit has died down [i]as he is a darling of the right[/i], and will most certainly strutt the public arena for some considerable time, AND ALL despite the proven fact that he has misused his public office and openly abused public trust.

What also galls is that the freeloading, smug fat **** that is Werrity will probably get away scot-free to continue amassing a vast personal fortune.

Any one know where the "Owl of the Remove" is these days?

 

WTD: rifles and one wall, for the use of. 👿

Wow - ernie, I hope you didn't take long to write that load of ....You mix a fair point about Labour's lead (thanks I read newspapers myself) and then mix it with the behaviour of a forum bully. Congrats, that must make you very proud.

Maybe it is beyond you to read what I have said, and to understand it. But judging from other threads, that would not be a first. As I have said before, you make a foolish mistake to assume other people's political persuasions. Something that you have confirmed yet again. Well done.

At least TJ had the balls to admit when he made a mistake!!

teamhurtmore - Member

Wow - ernie, I hope you didn't take long to write that.....

It took me absolutely ages . Did you like my dancing banana btw ?

Did you like my dancing banana btw ?

I was watching news plus newsnight to see how the Tories would get themselves out of the hole. Amazed at how low this came on the news * given how damning GO'D's report was. The ridiculous Tory lady MP on Newsnight was, well "ridiculous." A sacrificial lamb thrown on Paxman's altar. Not really far game that!

Still, I come back to my original point - this story may well run a lot further and a lot deeper. There will be a few more MPs sleeping a little uneasy tonight.

(* sorry, like me 😉 the BBC is a right-wing, Tory propaganda machine. This is a joke BTW, well at least the bit about me!!!)

hague squirming on andrew marr about atlantic bridge was better

The concept of Atlantic Bridge as a charity is particularly sickening - rich right-wing tossers from across the Atlantic joining together to fraudulently subvert democracy in order to make themselves even richer. The fact that several members of the cabinet are implicated in this scam should bring the government down, but of course it won't.

wot grum said