Irrespective of computer games, movies, and the whole debate about whether a killer will always find another way of killing, I can't see any defence for the sale of assault rifles. I'm trained to use one, they typically have a 30 round magazine and fire high velocity rounds in automatic or semi automatic modes. They are designed for putting a lot of ammunition down, fast. In semi-automatic mode, in a crowded space, I think a decent shot could kill 15-20 people before having to reload. There is no other weapon that provides that capability, so while your mass shootings may still have happened, less people would have died. There is no justification for them from a hunting perspective either; you get one shot at a deer, and if you miss it buggers off. They are for the military, so why sell them to the public? So the citizenry can fight off the military? Even though they've got all the tanks, planes and ships?
Population of Israel=7 million. Deaths=8.
Population of USA=315 million. Deaths=323.
Let's work the percentages, shall we?
I don't seee that drawn or computer generated images are any less powerful than film
Whoah.. have you ever actually played any of these computer games you know so much about? I cannot imagine how anyone who has would say something like that.
There is no justification for them from a hunting perspective either;
Pretty sure you're not allowed to hunt with automatic or semi automatic weapons - not in Wisconsin at least.
Apart from being a killerspiel gamer he listed his favourite films as Gladiator 300 and Dogville by Lars von Trier
Right, but did he like those movies because he had violent tendencies, or did he have violent tendencies because he watched the movies?
I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn't watched the films and played the games. I think not.
The film industry always denies any causal effect but then what else would you expect from the film industy. Did you really expect Oliver Stone to say "oh dear, all those killers did exactly what my actors did in the film". Of couse he won't, if only because doing so might well land him in jail.
Films have been blamed for everything from serial killings to a spate of attacks on gas stations and dismissing the copycat element a little head int he sand. Did any cinemas get attacked at the first showing of Bambi or Toy Story? No. Would you expect them to? No. Did a cinema get attacked at the opening of Batman? Yes. Was I surprised? No.
Tetris didn't make me want to become a bricky
GTA didn't make me want to rob cars
COD didn't make me want to shoot people
populous didn't make me want to be god
Borat didn't make me want to strangle sacha baron cohen with his own intestines
Star wars didn't make me want to push things/people around with the force and wield a lightsabre
(I may not have been entirely truthful here)
COD et al are 18 games iirc, stopping kids playing them would probably be a good idea, but no I don't think they make you a murderer.
I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn't watched the films and played the games
But he could have dreamed up other crimes easily enough, surely? Are you suggesting we remove all reference to crime and wrongdoing from our culture? Ban Dostoyevsky?
Very simplistic to assume that copycat crimes would not happen if it weren't for the things in films. Crimes happened before films were invented of course. And people still talked about them a lot, so everyone knew about them anyway.
I think the question is would he have had the imagination to dream up those crimes himself if he hadn't watched the films and played the games. I think not.
Gotta disagree with that. Surely someone like the Jack The Ripper didn't have access to a time-travelled television or some such...
Interesting that you should mention Jack the Ripper, Teasel. The press coverage and copycat killings linked to Jack are at the origins of [url= http://people.howstuffworks.com/5-copycat-killers.htm ]the term"copycat crimes".[/url](look at what are numbers one and two)
Indeed. Chicken and egg and all that...
Now imagine he could get guns [s]and he played violent computer games[/s]
Any different?
and from the real world rather than the hypothetical imagine he does not watch the Omen any different now?
As I have given you an example and Edukator has mentioned coppycat killings the question still remains as to how much influence exposure has
Its a seriously warped viewpoint that blames games instead of guns for deaths like these.
Not seen anyone do this just lots of folk claim this.
But, repeating myself again, there's a world of difference between buying something that's "cool" and strolling into a primary school with automatic weaponry.
You are right but we have just given you another example of fiction affecting reality.
We seem to be getting to a point where we can discuss how much influence it has rather than if
(And incidentally, you'll have to point me towards Grand Murder Preschool, I must have missed that game.)
Thanks for the extremism again - any chance we can discuss the middle ground rather than keep doing this 🙄
When people want to kill, they will find a way.
So best that they have really crap weapons an argument for gun control
COD et al are 18 games iirc, stopping kids playing them would probably be a good idea, but no I don't think they make you a murderer.
They certainly do not for the vast majority of folk but we dont really know what effect they have on those on the margins of sanity.
Most folk drink without ending up as a homeless alcoholic sleeping on the streets but that is what happens to some folk. Would they have done that without alcohol - probably not.
In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer games my view being it has an affect and its unlikely to be helpful and unlikely to be anything to worry about for 99.999999% of the population.
But he could have dreamed up other crimes easily enough, surely
Very simplistic to assume that copycat crimes would not happen if it weren't for the things in films. Crimes happened before films were invented of course. And people still talked about them a lot, so everyone knew about them anyway.
Yes but we have folk who copy things they have read heard or seen which is rather the point of this debate.
Would they have done them without the info - I dont actually know as I would have to guess.
I dont think anyone is saying if you watch x film/game whatever for x long then you will kill y people
Even the nay sayers can cite examples of fiction affecting behaviour whilst argue against it affecting behaviour.
To claim it must be all or nothing is silly and to work out how much influence it has is nigh on impossible.
In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer games
True, nor do we know how much people are affected by their parents shouting at them, losing their job, or anything else that can happen to a person.
Films have been blamed for everything
Sure. So has Elvis. It's easy to point the finger, doesn't mean there's actually a causal link.
and from the real world rather than the hypothetical imagine he does not watch the Omen any different now?
You tell me, it's not my anecdote. What I'm getting at is, it's disingenuous to say that a nutter on glue with a gun did something crazy and in the same breath add "and played computer games" or "and watched horror films." He may also have worn a green shirt, does that mean we need to have a crackdown on khaki? Just because x did y and z does not necessarily mean x did y [i]because[/i] of z, you can't just automatically imply / assume a causal link.
It's probably fair to say that media (games / movies) influence behaviour. That's how product placement works. It's probably also fair to say that the very very young may be confused by adult-oriented media (which they shouldn't have access to anyway); this is where the "right from wrong" argument may hold some water. And it's probably correct that the sort of lunatic who's going to go mad with an SMG is also likely to be attracted to violent media.
But. And it's a big but. You cannot simply roll all those statements together into one and conclude that violent games / movies cause otherwise well adjusted adults to commit murder. You just can't. If someone's a nutcase to start with, their trigger could be anything; computer games, road rage, watching Coronation Street, the local ASDA running out of beans.
Thanks for the extremism again - any chance we can discuss the middle ground rather than keep doing this
You keep saying this, and will probably think it again for my previous paragraphs, but I don't think it's particularly fair. There's a suggestion that somehow these tragedies are 'copycat' crimes, that people are recreating scenes in games. My point (in what I thought was a light-hearted manner) is simply, there's no game I'm aware of which portrays high school massacres. It's a straw man.
In reality no one actually knows how each individual is affected by computer gamesTrue, nor do we know how much people are affected by their parents shouting at them, losing their job, or anything else that can happen to a person.
I seem to remember the 70's (i.e.a time before games) as being much more violent in the UK e.g. bank holidays on brighton beach, football hooligans and general 'tooled' up violence. At a time when T.V. and video violence was quite controlled (some would've said repressed) by the government/social mores of the time.
There was also more social upheaval and more of a macho culture at the time.
So I think the question of whether violent computer games have made society more violent is (very) moot.
I think you're on to something. We should ban football.
a macho culture
Well this is a big one. Macho culture seems to create an awful lot of violence. However I am not sure how much it contributes to incidence of psychopathology.
You tell me, it's not my anecdote.
My examples are evidence only yours are anecdote 😉
Yes its very much like the khaki example you gave almost identical- I mean no one has committed a spree naked so its clothes right - that is basically what i am saying 🙄
It's probably fair to say that media (games / movies) influence behaviour. That's how product placement works. It's probably also fair to say that the very very young may be confused by adult-oriented media (which they shouldn't have access to anyway); this is where the "right from wrong" argument may hold some water. And it's probably correct that the sort of lunatic who's going to go mad with an SMG is also likely to be attracted to violent media.
Finally the middle ground - yes i agree but beyond that we dont really knwo how mcuh ot triggers and how much it leads. I am not a fan of steeping stone theories that one thing leads to another. I accept that , currently, we dont know.
You cannot simply roll all those statements together into one and conclude that violent games / movies cause otherwise well adjusted adults to commit murder.
Can you quote me doing that ? Anyone on this thread doing that
Why do folk keep saying this? we all know this, no one has claimed it, yet every post its gets repeated
Seems to be pretty much Edukator's argument, unless I'm misreading.
I tend to not read his posts so you may be correct- he seemed to think i was always having a go so i largely stopped reading [ no offence edukator]
never seen the liberal logic 101 site before a real intelect free zone.
Guns don't kill people, nutters antisocial and honestly mistaken people kill people using guns. You can't change human nature certainly not before you have identified the character flaw so take the guns out of the equation and make the nutters etc less dangerous.
Brainflex - MemberGuns are banned in China so the weapon of choice is a knife. When people want to kill, they will find a way.
On the other hand... There are 10 cases in your article there, and 21 dead. As opposed to one person killing 26.
Have you stumbled across Distributed Defence?
They are working on a downloadable CAD model that anyone can overnight print in a 3D printer to make a usable hand gun they dub "Wikigun".
You still need to buy actual bullets.
