er, last week?
Er, no!
who cares if its legal or not? this is happening and will continue.
so you think the answer to gun crime is the US, is to outlaw guns that are already illegal?
I thought the gun was legally held by his mother, happy to be corrected...
When was a legally held automatic weapon last used in a killing in the US?
Wasn't the gun used in this tragedy legally held by the killers mother? Claiming it wasn't legally held by the killer is just a technicality.
Most of the illegal guns in the states have gone to market legally and them moved on.
When was a legally held automatic weapon last used in a killing in the US?
Put it another way: What place do fully automatic weapons have in civilian society?
The guns laws in the US are not going to change over night, and therefore banning semi and fully automatic weapons is a good start. If they went straight for hand guns, or all guns, then it would get nowhere, leaving them back at square one.
Also, if the nutters can't get hold of semi-automatics, then they are going to reach for the fullys, so just ban them both.
Semi automatics were used in Columbine.
Everything I've read on the subject suggests that being aggressive and being capable of wantonly murdering innocent people are unrelated traits.
What so folk who wantonly murder are not aggressive - what are they peace givers having an off day?
Research consistently shows that those who watch aggressive games/films/cartoons are more aggressive in their play afterwards. How causal this I dont know but it seems that it is more likely to be unhelpful than helpful in reducing violence.
Zulu that research is rubbish - really rubbish
Firstly he selects what data to study - come on you know how bad that is for data analysis- he cherry picked it so its meaningless.
Even after this his murder spree data includes this gem
David Hernandez Arroyo Sr. opened fire on a public square from the steps of a courthouse in Tyler, Texas. The shooter was armed with a rifle and wearing body armor. Mark Wilson fired back with a handgun, hitting the shooter but not penetrating the armor. Mark drew the shooter’s fire, and ultimately drove him off, but was fatally wounded. Mark was the only death in this incident.
Not a spree and the only dead person was the civilian shooter- not really sure how that one help or what we are meant to conclude.
The majority were overpowered by unarmed folk and of you fire its 50/50 whether you die from that data set but in 3 cases a gun was with them but not used
therefore if you have a gun dont use it as its safest - well the evidence is there 😕
Of course I dont think that its just another rubbish conclusion drawn from that data that is equally "valid"
When was a legally held automatic weapon last used in a killing in the US?
Okay, so his weapon was semi-automatic rather than fully automatic. I doubt that offers much comfort to anybody and not really a a useful contribution
Okay, so his weapon was semi-automatic rather than fully automatic. I doubt that offers much comfort to anybody and not really a a useful contribution
So, you think that a bunch of kids would have had a better chance against someone armed with a bolt action rifle with a ten round clip and a pump action shotgun that can both be reloaded in seconds
Because I think the type of weapon used bears little or no significance.
Most of the illegal guns in the states have gone to market legally and them moved on.
any figures on that? From what I've read, theft of a legally held full auto is extraordinarily rare, and there are about 240k registered legal ones (about half of them in the hands of law enforcement)
at some point these illegal guns where purchased legally (probably with a driving licence).
some mentally ill kid probably knows a handfull of places to get a gun (his dads, older brothers, the old one at the back of the garage etc etc)
bullshit - how can anyone expect anything different, its like ****ing groundhog day.
I heard that most parenting that affects behaviour is done before 5. Might be wrong.
But, even if so, there is no point giving them all the love & attention at primary / pre primary, and then cutting them adrift / not giving the support through adolescence - arguably when we are all at our most vulnerable.
For all these attrocities that I remember (and that goes back to Ryan in Hungerford), the common theme is male, loner / "personality disorder"....
Nope, it wasn't automatic, it was a semi
So what, he still killed 26 people with it!
So why were you pontificating on the importance of banning automatic weapons then?
and there are about 240k registered legal ones (about half of them in the hands of law enforcement)
do you mean that when it is difficult to access weapons they dont get used 💡
However when its easy to get hold of them they are more likely to be used
Interesting
I think casual gun owners of America have blood on their hands!
'what do you ****in expect'?
Guns don't kill people, rappers do.
I can't believe that hasn't been pointed out yet.
So why were you pontificating on the importance of banning automatic weapons then?
Okay Lordy one. Semi - automatic / automatic. Both are effective killing machines that make the act of killing people easy. I would ban both and I apologise for confusing you by not mentioning semi-automatic in my post. I didn't realise you would pick apart such detail. I thought you might be slightly more considerate of the bigger argument but I was clearly mistaken.
Hey, I was only trying to put forward a valid argument on the points of reference that you laid out...
don't shoot the messenger 😉
don't shoot the messenger
If I did, it would be with a fully automatic.
Even in California, home of gun crime, use of either 'assault' type weapons, let alone full auto weapons, in crime is extraordinarily rare
I'm also worried about loners all being deemed potential mass killers as the mother did in that link i posted. Thats a great message to send to the kids that is in no way going to make them feel resentful and go on a spree. You can bet no one will give a thought to bullying as if the shooting was soley the work of a dehumanized deranged monster and not a human being or partly the result of how society has treated that individual. Heaven forbid we create the monsters instead of them being born and being beyond the realms of explanation.
Semi Automatics were used at Columbine, semi-automatics (handguns) were used at Virginia tech.
Ban semi-automatics as a start. If you are going to ban semis, then ban fullys as well as they would most likely be the next choice of your average loon.
It's not the goal, just the first step on the ladder.
Even in California, home of gun crime, use of either 'assault' type weapons, let alone full auto weapons, in crime is extraordinarily rare
Why not replace every hand gun with an assault rifle on the grounds of safety/ gun crime reduction?
I also object to journalists describing semi - automatic rifles as "machine guns" but its hardly germane.
The problem in America is actually handguns, they account for well over 90% of all gun deaths
Well said.
Also, look at how New York has massively reduced violent crime.
Increased enforcent and the determination to make a safer environment help.
The problem in America is actually handguns, they account for well over 90% of all gun deaths
You do realise handguns can be semi-automatic as well, don't you?
Are the auto / semi-autos just the metaphor for the mindset? Bang in a clip, lock & load....
... As Molly said, there's a great big streak of machismo (and underlying fear*) running through American society. Hand guns migh be the problem, but assault rifles are the shorthand for the mentality - an ar probably th easiest political quick fix
* just look at the election commentary and fallout....
You do realise handguns can be semi-automatic as well, don't you?
Of course and that's one of the problem with handguns and why the focus on "assault weapons" is pointless.
Its probably easier to kill a room full of people with a Glock than it is to kill them with a semi auto M-16 copy
The type of gun is pretty much irrelevant. They are all designed for one thing - to kill. If a guy walks into a room with a break-action double barrel (fairly easily obtainable here in the UK) and takes out two people and then gets stopped while he's reloading, dare I say it, its just as bad as if 26 people die. The fact is human life has been taken.
As a slight side note I find it chilling that technicians sit in a laboratory performing experiments with bullets to make them do as much damage to human tissue as possible.
Its not the gun, as the title of this thread initally points out. Its the mind controlling the finger that pulls the trigger. 'Ban this or that type of gun' reactions are just the very beginning and the tip of the iceberg of the problem.
takes out two people and then gets stopped while he's reloading, dare I say it, its just as bad as if 26 people die
Tell that to the 24 people who are still alive, and their families.
ts not the gun, as the title of this thread initally points out. Its the mind controlling the finger that pulls the trigger. 'Ban this or that type of gun' reactions are just the very beginning and the tip of the iceberg of the problem
The problem is that the US has got itself in a right mess with guns and there is little political will to address it. Some weapons make mass killings easier than others, therefore it makes sense to ban these types of weapons first. They have no justifiable need for them and it [u]may[/u] be something that is actually achievable to deliver without having to amend their constitution
'Ban this or that type of gun' reactions are just the very beginning and the tip of the iceberg of the problem.
Absolutely, and no one is saying it will solve all the problems, but it will be a start.
As I have said: Semi and fully automatic weapons (both handguns and assault rifles) have no place in civilian life. Get rid of them.
You also have to factor in the lobbying power of the NRA: Trying to ban all guns to begin with will get you nowhere. You need to do it bit by bit.
The answer is to go right back to the 2nd Amendment - and allow anyone to have a flintlock.
Simple.
As I have said: Semi and fully automatic weapons (both handguns and assault rifles) have no place in civilian life. Get rid of them.
Agreed
"Tell that to the 24 people who are still alive, and their families."
I'm saying that it's an unthinkable tragedy if even one person is killed.
"The problem is that the US has got itself in a right mess with guns and there is little political will to address it. Some weapons make mass killings easier than others, therefore it makes sense to ban these types of weapons first. They have no justifiable need for them and it may be something that is actually achievable to deliver without having to amend their constitution"
Agreed. But thats still papering over the cracks, and not actually addressing the cause of the problem.
Good job Daily Mail don't know their arse from their elbow...
So what, there's a sale on relatively small bore shotgun ammo 🙄
I liked this comment : THe USA needs to move in to 21st century. The right to carry arms was in an age of their civil war, the wild west truly wild but now the are a civilised country. With the biggest army in the the world to defend them, who do they need to shoot with their guns?
For some of them, the army is who they plan to fight.
who do they need to shoot with their guns
They need guns because other people have guns.
Why not replace every hand gun with an assault rifle on the grounds of safety/ gun crime reduction?
Daft as it sounds that would probably help as it's much harder to lug around or conceal an assault rifle.
We can argue all we want about the gun control but it is a diversion. The killings of random innocents, the disaffected or people with mental health issues and the general level of violence are all symptomatic of something else in society that we are not addressing. I don't see that the UK is that far removed from the US in some ways we just don't have the accessible means to kill that many people (in one go) on a regular basis (if the law is applied correctly). It seems to me that Mr Obama has to opportunities now, yes a degree of gun control may now be possible and he should go for it in his last term. Far more importantly he needs to try and get a national debate started on why the US and some other countries (China for example as well as the UK) has a small number of people who believe that extreme violence is their only solution to what ails them (or us for that mater). Just my take.
Just so you know, I have read Catcher in the Rye twice and have yet to shot a President or a musician. 🙂
I thought that too but whilst technically probably correct I don't think it would make very good political suggestion.Daft as it sounds that would probably help as it's much harder to lug around or conceal an assault rifle.
Good job Daily Mail don't know their arse from their elbow...So what, there's a sale on relatively small bore shotgun ammo 🙄
Come on - give them some credit - there wasn't just shotgun ammo on sale
[i]A box of 2000 Winchester M-22 [b]bullets[/b] was reduced by $20 so they cost $109.99, or 5 cents a shot[/i]
Don't know what use they would be on their own mind 😀
"Daft as it sounds that would probably help as it's much harder to lug around or conceal an assault rifle."
Interesting and probably made as a throw-away comment, however I can't help saying the Connecticut shooter managed okay, as well carrying Glock and Sig handguns
Daft as it sounds that would probably help as it's much harder to lug around or conceal an assault rifle.
You've never been to the Apple store in Switzerland I take it?
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