[Closed] Guns Don't Kill People. 9 Year Olds Do.

Someone's also just tagged this on the end of the "Kids And Guns" thread.
If you watched the documentary, you'll have seen how messed up they most certainly are.

They don't teach 9year olds such things in civilised countries. You can't judge third world countries by our standards.

I was just about to post this story - f#cked up! is all I can think of to say.

Words fail me 😥

They don't teach 9year olds such things in civilised countries. You can't judge third world countries by our standards.

Didn't follow the link then?

The NRA will be arguing that what's needed is more guns for gun instructors so that they can properly defend themselves.

Probably going to be judged as the instructors own fault, lack of supervision, he was in authority etc etc...

Very sad for both parties.

Poor kid.

Didn't follow the link then?

I think he probably did.

It's their constitutionally protected right for children to bear machine guns. Otherwise, King George might take over.

Very very sad for the poor girl . At least the instructor went the way he wanted to .

But it is their constitutional right! Don't mess with the constitution.

You can't judge third world countries by our standards.

Ignoring the hubristic arrogance of the phrase 'our standards', I reckon this is mostly true. Thing is the US isn't a 'civilised' country by most measures of what that means. It's constantly at war with itself, where it's citizens and institutions are encouraged to view others as a threat, where cooperation, mutual aid and general civility are only to be extended to your immediate family, social or professional networks, and where the weak and unfortunate are cast aside and doomed to their fate. Strange really as the people are on the whole really friendly and generous (at least the ones I've met) so I"ve never really understood it.

US is a third world country . look at infant mortality, education , wealth gap ,availability of health care , attitude to minorities and leval of superstition.

I am amazed a nine year old could actually hold an Uzi, they are very heavy pieces of kit. Tragic story and will be written off by the gun lobby as the dead guys fault I am sure.

By many standards, the US is in the midst of a civil war and is a failed state.

By many standards, the US is in the midst of a civil war and is a failed state.

Name one?

Poor kid.

This.

Much as I think the gun ownership culture in the US is stupid, to refer to the US as a third world country is ridiculous as anyone who has been to a third world country can testify.

I am amazed a nine year old could actually hold an Uzi, they are very heavy pieces of kit.

3.5kg according to Wiki, not that heavy, my 10yr old wouldn't have any problem picking that up. Although the recoil is obviously a different matter.

will be written off by the gun lobby as the dead guys fault I am sure

I'm pretty sure it was.
From that link he was standing next to her when the gun recoiled up an shot him.
Surely he should be experience enough to know a kid that age couldn't hold the gun steady due to the upwards force? I might be wrong mind as I've never shot one.

EDIT: As per Mogrim

The Uzi also has a grip safety which means you have to exert a fair amount of pressure on the back of the pistol grip before it will fire. I'm surprised a nine year olds hands are big enough (or strong enough) for that.

http://www.reddit.com/r/progun/comments/1wxf6v/actually_the_uk_is_more_violent_than_the_us_at/

Maybe it's not quite as black and white as some of the posters on here make it out to be. I'm not saying those figures are correct though.

They don't teach 9year olds such things in civilised countries. You can't judge third world countries by our standards.

Everyone knows the cool kids in third world companies carry AK47s unless your isreali then its some kind of modern version of the M16 as seen on newsnight

Complete stupidity for all involved, instructor and girls parents.
The girl would obviously not be able to control the gun and could have just as easily accidentally shot herself.

Darwin claims another.

Yes I feel sorry for that girl, living with that.

[url=

and Burgers[/url]

With over 900 reviews on tripadvisor I can imagine that the selling of burgers and bullets is quite a profitable enterprise. Can also imagine that their ratings might take a hit following this. Though real gun dyed-in-the-wool gun-nuts won't miss a step. Maybe a niche market for lightweight automatic machine pistols in glitter pink?

Maybe a niche market for lightweight automatic machine pistols in glitter pink?

[quote> http://www.reddit.com/r/progun/comments/1wxf6v/actually_the_uk_is_more_violent_than_the_us_at/

Maybe it's not quite as black and white as some of the posters on here make it out to be. I'm not saying those figures are correct though.

IIRC, there are major differences in the way both countries record crimes. Things that we'd class as assault get recorded as lesser crimes in the US.

Tom - there appears to be more to this than a simple reddit. I read it and would dispute the figures insofar that the definitions of that is 'violent' is different legally per country. Then there are others to actually take it apart:

[url= http://dispellingthemythukvsusguns.wordpress.com/ ]Is the UK more violent than the US?[/url]

How bad would the UK be if we had free access to guns as they do in the US?

3.5kg according to Wiki, not that heavy, my 10yr old wouldn't have any problem picking that up. Although the recoil is obviously a different matter.

A heavier gun recoils less .
A long barrelled heavy rifle with a good stock would recoil less and be easier to control especially if fired resting.

The Uzi is a short barrelled machine pistol with a fold out stock.
If she was firing standing in full auto it is not surprising she lost control.

How bad would the UK be if we had free access to guns as they do in the US?

If that happened I'd leave pronto. I suspect I wouldn't be alone.

By many standards, the US is in the midst of a civil war and is a failed state.

Name one?

Keeping it on topic, [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate ]firearms deaths[/url]. Sort the table on Wikipedia by either 'total' or 'homicides' and take a look at the adjacent countries.

You can also look at incarceration rates, healthcare, educational inequality, lack of maternity rights, income inequality, reproductive rights, religiosity...

How bad would the UK be if we had free access to guns as they do in the US?

We have free access, if you have money and want one you can get one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28769326

Maybe we ought to really get our own house in order first.

While it becomes clear that certain types of offenses are marginally higher in the UK than in the US (robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively) a number of other, more serious offenses, are both marginally and substantially higher in the US. Rape of a female is 1.02x more likely in the US, while theft of a vehicle is 1.29x more likely. More disturbingly, burglary is significantly higher at 1.52x more likely to occur in the US. However, it is at the considerably more, well, violent crimes that America really supersedes England and Wales into its own class. In the United States, you are 6.9x more likely to be the victim of aggravated assault resulting in serious injury than in the UK. You are 4.03x more likely to be murdered than in the UK. And more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK. Before anybody asks, no, these do not take into account justifiable homicide and other “acceptable shootings”, nor do murders for that matter:

more staggeringly (though not surprising) you are 35.2x more likely to be shot dead in the Unites States than in the UK

And the likelihood of being shot dead by the police is higher in the US than the UK - in 2012 0.00013 per cent of the US population were killed by the police, compared to 0.0000035 per cent in the UK, which makes it 37.1 times as likely. ([url= http://www.channel4.com/news/police-fatal-shooting-trigger-happy-fact-check ]source[/url])

They don't have free access to guns everywhere in the US. It's a very mixed bag depending on where you are. Washington DC has more or less the same laws on a practical basis as the UK. Vermont has the opposite.

Usually when people are killed at work there's a question about the protection of workers, their health and their safety.

But hey, let's all get self-righteous about it!

We have free access, if you have money and want one you can get one.

Being able to illegally buy a gun on the black market isn't [i]quite[/i] the same as being able to pick one up in the supermarket whilst you are buying beans.

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Surely even the most ardent pro-gun NRA lover can see that there is something just a little bit messed up with a "civilised peaceful" country where they teach nine year olds to use submachine guns?

On the contrary, I think the standard response from the NRA in these situations is that we need to arm people more.

robbery and knife crime being more likely in the UK by an order of 1.1x and 1.27x respectively

Not massively surprised that knife crime is higher in the UK, after all most criminals in the UK don't have access to guns...

On the contrary, I think the standard response from the NRA in these situations is that we need to arm people more.

I think what they really need to do in the US is to arm all Uzis - think about it, if the Uzi would have had its own gun it could have shot dead the little girl before she shot the instructor dead.

It is the only way to properly ensure safety and The American Way.

what boggled my mind was guns n liquor stores (this was in new england)

one half of the shop booze, the other half guns, what could possibly go wrong?
of course you had to be 21 to buy beer, but 18 to buy a shotgun or rifle!

Had the usual conversation re Uk / USA with a guy in New York and as expected turned to guns (he was carrying a Heckler and Koch something or other).

He mentioned how the Uk seemed to excel at knife crime but he did accept that it was in general only possible to stab one person at a time and from where he was sitting, it wasn't possible to stab all the folk up to 200m away without moving...

I had to accept that "the good guy with a gun would shoot the bad guy with a knife" ... where does it go from here... ?

Did the accident happen at Burgers and Bullets ? There is a comment on their FB page suggesting it might have ..

On the contrary, I think the standard response from the NRA in these situations is that we need to arm people more.

Yes, + an argument for better training.

Whatever the pro-vs-anti lobby views are I'm sure all would agree that in this instance there was a complete failure in protocol. Either it wasn't implemented or else non-existent. I hope the place has been closed down immediately.

*Edit - Yes, according to reports the range is called 'Bullets and Burgers'. Am I alone in grimacing at their branding and logos? Looks like a horribly unironic reworking of a postmodern tarantino grindhouse film poster. The brain turns to cheese.

He mentioned how the Uk seemed to excel at knife crime

Though not by a huge amount, really?

Did the accident happen at Burgers and Bullets ?

No, "Last Stop" in Arizona according to the report on the BBC.

They also have a video of the guy teaching the girl to fire the uzi moments before he was killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946