I don't think anyone honestly would expect the UK Military to stand up to the US Military, particularly in Greenland, that would just be an exercise in ordering UK soldiers to die in a battle they can't win.
I agree, but the most effective way to defend Greenland would not to actually fight, but rather to have a very small group of soldiers, preferably from across multiple NATO countries, link arms (metaphorically or literally) and say that if the USA want to take Greenland, they will have to kill them.
But it might be hard to find volunteers for Mission "surely he wouldn't actually do it... would he?"
Orders are orders, and they won't be illegal
But it might be hard to find volunteers for Mission "surely he wouldn't actually do it... would he?"
That made me laugh more than appropriate... Picturing Blackadder and his crew from the trenches.
But it might be hard to find volunteers for Mission "surely he wouldn't actually do it... would he?"
😂 "Asking" for volunteers is not how it works. More like "Get your lardy arse on that bus to Brize sunshine, save your dripping for the padre".
Government have just moved call up reservist age from 55 to 65.
At least the cannon fodder have lived a bit.
If the cannon fodder for this are in the 55 to 65 age group and have previous service, I think the biggest question will be if the RAF can ensure there is enough tea and biscuits getting to theatre so that the soaks can always have a full mug while they are swapping stories.
Government have just moved call up reservist age from 55 to 65.
I think Mercator is at least partly to blame. It just looks so big sitting there at the top of the map he was always going to notice it eventually
Government have just moved call up reservist age from 55 to 65.
Not being rude, and I know there's some in this age range who are still remarkably fit, but... thinking of footballers... Isn't going into battle somewhat more demanding than a game of football!?
Government have just moved call up reservist age from 55 to 65.
Not being rude, and I know there's some in this age range who are still remarkably fit, but... thinking of footballers... Isn't going into battle somewhat more demanding than a game of football!?
Just spoken with an old mate. Neither sure we could see the target on a 400m range never mind hit it.
Just been involved in a social media chat with an American based friend of a friend.
She was obviously anti Trump/Maga and any attack on Greenland, but said the Europeans could not defend it due to the long supply chain.
I had to remind her that Canada was a thing. And not a thing tbat would support the US
https://xcancel.com/RnaudBertrand/status/2011753169898889487
"The end result is this sad irony: Greenland is now a legitimate point of Russian-NATO tension where none existed before Trump started his threats of annexation.
By responding to a fictional Russian danger with actual NATO military buildup, NATO leaders have created the very security concern they claimed to be addressing.
It's almost impressively incompetent. Or maybe deliberately manufactured, which is just as bad."
I find it interesting that europe is putting troops on the ground to defend against the US. Yes it will only be symbolic but its a very powerful signal
Its no threat to russia
could not defend it due to the long supply chain.
Have a look at a globe. 🙂 Its not far from norway and iceland
https://www.newsweek.com/republican-signals-support-for-trump-impeachment-11364569
Bacon warned, "If he went through with the threats, I think it would be the end of his presidency. And he needs to know: The off-ramp is realizing Republicans aren't going to tolerate this and he's going to have to back off. He hates being told no, but in this case, I think Republicans need to be firm."
Will wait to see if this gets more widely reported in the same light
3000km from New York to Nuuk. Liverpool is about the same. Reykjavik half that.
I find it interesting that europe is putting troops on the ground to defend against the US.
feels really weird. We're (the rest of the world) are being held hostage to the whims of a mad-king.
3000km from New York to Nuuk. Liverpool is about the same. Reykjavik half that.
Early Proclaimers?
Well, it appears that there is a value to Greenland... 6450 billion SEK, call it 650 billion USD. Denmark did tell him to go F himself though, so it looks like an invasion is on the cards.
Is this an offer the Trump administration have made (backed by force)? They could make that back selling off chunks to the likes of Praxis very quickly.
The rest of NATO and other US "allies" should put together a list of actions that will be taken if Donald does use military force against Greenland.
This should include US bases that will be closed, arms contracts that will be cancelled and other economic sanctions to be enforced.
Basically make public the exact consequences of such an ill-advised incursion.
There should also be an alternative plan offered which covers Greenland's defence by NATO.
Show a bit of strength and leave a path for Trump to back down and TACO!
Putin must be loving this.
Basically make public the exact consequences of such an ill-advised incursion.
Have you drawn up such a plan where, if he calls the bluff of all concerned, it doesn’t leave much of Europe highly exposed to Russia… given that there is every chance that he would see that as a positive side effect? A line drawn down the Atlantic where nothing to the East of Iceland is the concern of the USA at all.
Also, with that strategy, you'd have to assume that the UK nuclear deterrent would simply cease to function. We may have the warheads under control, but the US controls the missiles they are strapped to.
That would leave the UK, Europe and NATO reliant on France for it's strategic deterrent against Russia and China.
Oh, and anyone that uses F-35s.
And possibly GPS. The irony would be having to drop to GLONASS for navigation.
That would leave the UK, Europe and NATO reliant on France for it's strategic deterrent against Russia, the USA and China.
FTFY regrettably
The rest of NATO and other US "allies" should put together a list of actions that will be taken if Donald does use military force against Greenland.
Quietly wind down buying US Bonds and start selling them. Quietly but quickly accelerate the digital Euro and start a conversation about accepting Brics Pay for trolling/putting the US off balance. Promote, very heavily in the short term, the use of cash.
No further arms industry orders.
Invest in Eutelsat.
Build a European army (in addition to national armies) to provide a rapid response option to a Russian land invasion.
Remove US forces and logistics hubs from Europe.
Promote Mistral, make that the AI of choice for government bodies.
Start moving to Linux for government bodies (again, speak to the French for lessons.
Have another chat with the French about big missiles for Submarines.
No dramatic and confrontational announcements. But also firm resistance to pressure to acquiesce.
Sit back and watched a massively indebted and overextended empire hit reverse in its place for the world and try and manage as best as possible when they inevitably lash out in various directions. The US debt is so high we might get to see the US have it's Gold Standard moment. Although I fully expect the IS to remain a leading power regardless as geography is on their side.
I obviously have no ****ing idea what I'm talking about and am completely talking out of my arse.
The rest of NATO and other US "allies" should put together a list of actions that will be taken if Donald does use military force against Greenland.
This should include US bases that will be closed, arms contracts that will be cancelled and other economic sanctions to be enforced.
Basically make public the exact consequences of such an ill-advised incursion.
There should also be an alternative plan offered which covers Greenland's defence by NATO.
Show a bit of strength and leave a path for Trump to back down and TACO!
Putin must be loving this.
There's a lot of respected folk both sides of the Atlantic been explaining the consequences of closing US bases, dumping US bonds, restricting US tech firms, cutting arms imports.
That's before the military risks are considered.
A lot of Trump loyalists are beginning to realise this is the time to make a very important choice
Well, it appears that there is a value to Greenland... 6450 billion SEK, call it 650 billion USD. Denmark did tell him to go F himself though, so it looks like an invasion is on the cards.
Thats multiple millions per resident is it not?
And possibly GPS. The irony would be having to drop to GLONASS for navigation.
Europe has its own "GPS" system called Galileo, I think the UK might be excluded from it because brexit.
I always believed that the UK and EU kowtowing to the US in the tariff wars was going to embolden him to go further, I am quite surprised how quickly it has escalated since.
Have you drawn up such a plan where, if he calls the bluff of all concerned, it doesn’t leave much of Europe highly exposed to Russia…
Have you noticed Russia can't even beat Ukraine after 4 years?
Maybe so, but look at the impact on the people of that country. If you don’t think that kind of pain is more likely for other countries, if the USA is suddenly dropped as a defence partner by all states on the Eastern side of the Atlantic… where does that confidence come from?
Maybe so, but look at the impact on the people of that country. If you don’t think that kind of pain is more likely for other countries, if the USA is suddenly dropped as a defence partner by all states on the Eastern side of the Atlantic… where does that confidence come from?
I'm not saying it won't happen, but I don't think Russia can cope with a second front - they'd lose ground in Ukraine, and struggle to gain it elsewhere.
I'm saying this with no specific knowledge or experience of military or geopolitical matters.
He's trying to claim it via tariff
Also, with that strategy, you'd have to assume that the UK nuclear deterrent would simply cease to function. We may have the warheads under control, but the US controls the missiles they are strapped to.
That would leave the UK, Europe and NATO reliant on France for it's strategic deterrent against Russia and China.
Oh, and anyone that uses F-35s.
And possibly GPS. The irony would be having to drop to GLONASS for navigation.
Hate to be the bearer but our entire way of life depends on a set of encryption tokens needed for hosting cloud services.
I wonder how much American defence companies are pushing back against this stuff. Who's going to want to buy F35s now?
I wonder how much American defence companies are pushing back against this stuff. Who's going to want to buy F35s now?
I suspect that most of their current users will because a chunk of Europe, Australia, Canada, Israel and Japan are amongst 1900 suppliers to the programme. Turkiye wants to get back in too https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/where-is-the-lockheed-martin-f-35-built/
The UK is the primary US partner in their development and now we're buying a few more for air delivery of nuclear weapons https://des.mod.uk/uk-to-purchase-f-35as-and-join-nato-nuclear-mission/
It’s a weird one but we do make a lot of bits for it and I vaguely remember we kit ours out with our own avionics and trick stuff.
https://www.f35.com/f35/global-enterprise/united-kingdom.html
I suppose it’s easier to reverse engineer something that’s already sat around when you only have to do it for parts of the plane you don’t make, it’s not like you’ve had to nick one without the instructions.
Although we did have that one stranded in India.
I always believed that the UK and EU kowtowing to the US in the tariff wars was going to embolden him to go further, I am quite surprised how quickly it has escalated since.
I think that we'll see what happens there. President Trump always starts will all options on the table, despite them being clearly impractical.
He's already skipped invasion, possibly because NATO planted troops on Greenland and because it isn't popular with anyone. He's now threatened tariffs, so that's a climb down.
It now needs the western world to stand up to him on tariffs, like China did, and he'll step back again. I might be over-reaching here, but there are signs that his "allies" are pushing back hard because they've realised, like many customers of his, that he doesn't stick to a deal.
We just need the Supreme Court to find against tariffs and he's in a mess,
Trump has described the battle over tariffs in epic terms, warning a loss would tie his hands in trade negotiations and imperil national security. He has said that if he does not win the case, the US would be "weakened" and in a "financial mess" for many years to come. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr578pvlp8qo
It now needs the western world to stand up to him on tariffs
That's my hope, neuter the orange Gibbon, kowtowing last time did not last long and the reasons for tariffs this time have zero validity. He'll keep doing this everything he has a tantrum otherwise and Western leaders know. He's over played his hand I hope, he's so thick he won't have realised it yet. In the meantime despite claiming he would have energy cost household energy costs are up 6%. People in the States are beeing squeezed by his suicidal uneconomical policies.
looks like a pretty strong and united response from European leaders with even Meloni calling trump out.
To me this looks like Trump has crossed a line and is about to get found out
Thankfully, it would appear that the threat of invasion may have receded and not without reason - copied from elsewhere:
This a hole The US has 2 , count them 2 Ice breakers . Canada has 9 + muliptle on order, EU dozens more plus cold climate tanks, personnel transports, snowmobile units, cold climate planes and fighter jets etc…. The US has zero cold climate tanks, the new F35 are not cold climate , no personal transports etc… Without NATO , Canada, Denmark and the EU the US is incapable of flighting in Greenland or anywhere cold. The US military has been designed to fight almost exclusively in deserts.
Having visited some military bases in northern Sweden and Norway, there’s a level of complexity to arctic warfare that few understand until you get there - this is their day job, know their shit and ready to go. The US has only a single unit of arctic warfare specialists amounting to a couple of hundred, to invade and hold an island of 836,000 square miles…
Yep, just keeping stuff running is challenging and once you boots on the ground your not going be rolling the tanks down the motorway cos there ain’t any.
The logistics are a nightmare and you’d have to fly everywhere, when you could and then keeping stuff able to fly way more maintenance in that climate , requiring way more resources.
In between people who may be taking a pop at your transport when it does fly.
All the funky toys would be broken pretty quick.
Forget about leaders of the free world registering concern. Now business leaders are concerned. That'll focus his mind more.
What’s this PM announcement going to be then? Just “for the people of Greenland and Denmark to decide” paired with a bit of “buckle up for the ride economically”?
Or, as people have suggested it should be, a call to the people of the USA more generally, and law makers and keepers more specifically, to rein Trump in?
I can’t see it being retaliatory tariffs. And it won’t be “you can have Greenland”, that’s for sure.
Starmer said he had yesterday spoken to Donald Trump, European leaders and NATO's secretary-general to find a solution on the matter "rooted in partnership, facts and mutual respect".
LOL at facts and mutual respect. That's almost trolling the Trumpet
"Have you considered not being a complete bell end?"
There were a few cleverly worded comments. "Our long history" - yup, the US doesn't have much of a history, and most of then are immigrants !
Strong emphasis on the word FACTS I felt as well.
No real surprises. Tone was very much pro USA partnership, but strong red line on Greenland. No actual policy or actions (yet).
What is needed right now is a collective release from every living past president denouncing Trump's current actions. And not to pull any punches - a full throttle call to (virtual) arms of all Americans that that are being led by a dangerous insane narcist, with enough personal insults thrown in about 'destined to have a legacy as the worst president in history' to properly hurt his feelings. It needs to be not just an attack on policy but the wholesale criticism of him as a person.
Then.....every right thinking member of the US armed forces should en mass put in a request to investigate a possible bone spur issue - hundreds of thousands of them as an unambiguous link to Trump's own lack of preparation to fight for his country....without putting themselves in desertion territory.
Protests and statements from leaders outside the US is just flim flam.
What is needed right now is a collective release from every living past president denouncing Trump's current actions.
On top of that, I'd quite like to see the various international delegations turn up in Davos this week and basically just ignore the US. Walk out or read their phones when the Orange Shitgibbon is on stage, don't include them in discussions, mostly look the other way, occasional whispering huddles in corners with furtive glances towards US, etc.
All very childish obviously, but highly entertaining just the same.
From Trump's letter to the Danish PM:
Norwegian PM
Anyway - business as usual from Starmer - craven subservience to Trump. Best hope is that he will bore the Orange One into forgetting about Greenland
To me this looks like Trump has crossed a line and is about to get found out
I think Trump is confabulating. I reckon he's absolutely convinced in his own mind that Greenland is strategically at the centre of the defense of the US. There's probably nothing his handlers can do to persuade him otherwise. I will bet money that at some point one of his late night Truth-Social essays will be a rant about some 'treacherous' military apparatchik in his own govt 'betraying' their oath after telling Trump that there's no way the USA can either invade it or buy it.
The logistics are a nightmare and you’d have to fly everywhere, when you could and then keeping stuff able to fly way more maintenance in that climate , requiring way more resources.
Way back in the 70s when my dad was in the RAF they spent a couple of weeks on exercise every February in northern Norway learning from the locals
Greenlanders should count themselves lucky - at least nobody is proposing that Tony Blair and Jared Kushner should run their country.
It really is about the level you would expect from someone writing whilst pissed on a forum late at night.
Who has been quiet on the forum these last 12 months.....?
Norwegian PM
Yes, sorry.
I reckon he's absolutely convinced in his own mind that Greenland is strategically at the centre of the defense of the US.
Nah, he wants to go down in history for a huge land deal that enlarges the USA. The ultimate property deal, made possible through the threat of ultimate force. The talk of the "defence" of the USA is just to try and win support at home for his plan, and excuse it abroad.
I think we should clearly all be eternally grateful to Gianni Infantino. If he hadn’t given him the FIFA peace prize he’d have probably nuked every football ground in Europe by now
The talk of the "defence" of the USA is just to try and win support at home for his plan
There's been polls, and you'll be unsurprised to hear that just 1 in 5 support it. Even Fox aren't really cheerleading. I think you may be right about the 'ultimate' land deal though, that is peak Trump.
From Trump's letter to the Danish PM:
[ source ]
How do you satirise someone who is capable of that? How on earth can any American, of whatever leaning, look at that and not be deeply ashamed that their elected leader is a deranged toddler embarrassing them in the eyes of the whole world?
Words ****ing fail me. What an absolute ****.
From Trump's letter to the Danish PM:
[ source ]
It was the Norwegian PM, but yes its completely batshit. It just highlights that there is a simpering man-child in charge of the world's most powerful military. Someone with the emotional intelligence of a toddler.
I actually don't think any of this will come to anything, its too stupid even for the current US. Something else will distract Trump in a week or two and all this will go away.
Looking for something else, I just tripped over "Manifest Destiny."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
AI summary: "Manifest Destiny was the 19th-century American belief that the United States was divinely ordained to expand its territory... spreading democracy, Protestantism, and American ideals."
That's what's happening here, isn't it.
I actually don't think any of this will come to anything, its too stupid even for the current US. Something else will distract Trump in a week or two and all this will go away.
Hmm... don't forget Trump was pushing this line on Greenland during his first term, but hadn't worked at the same pace to make the courts, military and legislature more obedient to his will. This isn't the latest "whim" of his, and this time he has a team prepared to do seemingly anything to back him over the constitution.
Agreed. If 'we' collectively care for Greenland, Denmark's sovereignty claim* and maybe more importantly the precedence between NATO allies it sets - this is not just going away when the manchild sees the next shiny new thing.
* the slightly inconvenient truth about Denmark's relationship with Greenland is that the Dane's don't actually have the most awesome of legacies. Reading around spiralsagen..., it's not too pretty.
Heard a good analogy
"its like walking into a pub with a shotgun, putting a tenner on the bar, aiming the gun and then demanding a pint and a packet of crisps"
"its like walking into a pub with a shotgun, putting a tenner on the bar, aiming the gun and then demanding a pint and a packet of crisps"
Nah,
It more like the local gangland boss swaggering into a bar with a holstered gun very obviously on display and telling the landlord he is going to 'buy' his pub. When the landlord objects and tells him it's not for sale the gangland boss turns to all the other drinkers and says if you don't look the other way I'm coming after your businesses too.
Heard a good analogy
"its like walking into a pub with a shotgun, putting a tenner on the bar, aiming the gun and then demanding a pint and a packet of crisps"
I'm actually struggling to see what parts of that situation have any relation to what's happening?
Trump can already have all the miltary bases and mining concessions he wants.
Trump can already have all the miltary bases and mining concessions he wants.
Not sure about the concessions thing, but in your analogy, what he wants is not actually crisps. He wants to change the name of the pub to The Tiny Arms.
That text to the Norwegian PM is frankly insane.
'Because you didn't give me a shiny gong, I'm going to endanger the entire world's security '..
Not sure about the concessions thing, but in your analogy, what he wants is not actually crisps. He wants to change the name of the pub to The Tiny Arms.
😂
Danes are on record for the mining - just ask. The point is to mock the pretext.
Danes are on record for the mining - just ask
This is an interview with the Greenlandic mineral resources minister who states the Greenland position on the subject of mining.
https://www.youtube.com/live/h9RL66Rnn38?si=JmFgz2Qqh4fWMjfk
I guess Trump considers Greenland the perfect country to expand and build on his golf courses, being “green” and all that.