[Closed] Greatest F1 driver ever?

As above

The Monacan

(Not the Monegasque)

Senna

Donnington 1993.

It rained.

A lot.

Watch that first lap.

If we are talking rain - Button - can't remember which race, but plumb last to win. That was one of the greatest drives I've ever seen

And well done Lewis - officially the most successful (greatest?) British F1 driver. I've always liked him from his first season, even through his petulance and praising God...

John Surtees

I was thinking that, 2 seconds before I read it.

If we are talking rain - Button - can't remember which race, but plumb last to win. That was one of the greatest drives I've ever seen

Montreal, I think it was 2012

Nope, it was 2011:

John Surtees, multiple motorbike champion, then to win F1 is still an unbelievable achievement.

I've always liked him from his first season, even through his petulance and praising God...

Surtees could have thanked God, Allah, Buddha, gravity or random chance and he would still be the greatest!

Senna, Alonso, Hamilton, Shumacher, Prost, Vettel, only including since I started following in the 80s.

The opinion of a man who puts an Heineken logo on his shirt collar for a bit of money can be dismissed as irrelevant.

Best? Schumacher.
Least favourite? Schumacher.
2nd least favourite? Schumacher.
😉

Senna.

Special mention to Graham Hill for doing the triple I reckon.

Hill did the double, 62 and 68.

Hill did the double, 62 and 68.

That's not what the poster was referring too. Read up about it.

Senna

Donnington 1993.

It rained.

A lot.

Watch that first lap.

Watch Barrichello follow him through and do exactly the same but get none of the plaudits 😉

"Greatest"?
Who has done more for driver safety?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/formula-1/2017/08/19/sir-jackie-stewart-people-will-not-like-halo-said-seatbelts/

For [i]talented[/i] driver it would be Jim Clark.

http://jimclarktrust.com/jim-clark/

joefm - Member
I wish Jackie Stewart would STFU. The guy is a whiny berk

ftfy

Another vote for Jim Clark here.

I'm no fan of Lewis' but he's certainly an amazing driver and maturing well (at last). Completely deserved this year's title.

It will be interesting to see how Max's career pans out. Once his youthful "i'm immortal so there's no harm in trying this move" ebullience has worn off a little will it leave a merely fast driver, like so many before, or has he got the raw talent [b]and[/b] range of personal skills to make the list?

Mansell.

Under privileged, unfit and at times unpaid, gave everything to his sport to eventually arrive. No chest of gold just several mortgages to buy a seat, heart on his sleeve and a very courageous driver.

A working mans hero.

Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO

Stirling Moss should also be on the list.

Before the accident that led him to retire Enzo Ferrari was going to give him a works Ferrari that he gave Stirling permission to paint blue so desperately did he want him in one of his cars.

Stirling didn't want to be in the works team so they came to an arrangement accordingly.

He also raced in so many disciplines and did exceedingly well in them all.

Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO

Considered. No.

Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.

geoffj - Member
Left field option, but Vettell is also worth consideration IMHO

I think he lacks the ability to control his temperament. He's very very close to top-tier IMHO but not quite. He may well achieve it over the next year or two though.

Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.

and

I think he lacks the ability to control his temperament. He's very very close to top-tier IMHO but not quite.

Both comments could have been applied to Schumacher and Senna at various points in their careers. I'm not suer he is as good, but I do agree with

He may well achieve it over the next year or two though

He just need to make his mark with the Ferrari

Graham Hill for 5 Monaco wins, 2 titles, Indy 500 and Le Mans.

Alan Prost for just being so smooth and making it all look easy, plus winning 4 titles at a super competitive time.

Alonso deserves a honorable shout out, for being a true racer.

geoffj - Member
Both comments could have been applied to Schumacher and Senna at various points in their careers. I'm not suer he is as good, but I do agree with

He may well achieve it over the next year or two though

The other thing is that Schumacher and Senna were more adaptable than Vettel. Both dragged some flawed cars to success. I don't think Vettel has shown he can do that just yet.

From what I have read, one area that he does shine in though is feedback for development of the car.

People keep waffling on about Fangio and it is difficult to compare across era's, but my problem with Fangio is that in his era most of his competition were rich playboys dabbling at racing as a hobby and spent most of their time drunk on champagne. It was not a professional sport. I think the level of competition in the modern era is a lot higher, its a professional sport rather than a pastime, with a much larger talent pool, so I suspect Fangio was a big fish in a very small pond so difficult to really gauge how good he was.

For me Schumacher has to be up there - he won 2 championships in the Benetton running a v8 when most people were running v10's, then jumped ship to a woeful Ferrari team who hadn't won a championship for over 20 years, and won 5 with them, which I reckon only 2 of those 5 were won when the Ferrari could be considered as the best car. So he has to be the best all-round driver - a good technical driver, knew the rules inside out and a great strategic driver so could adapt his strategy mid-race. The only driver to really display all these attributes in one person I think. He stretched the rules to breaking point, but so have a lot of the greats of the past. Its a ruthless sport and if you're not willing to push the limits of the rules as well as the car and your own skills, then you don't deserve to win.

In the current crop of drivers Hamilton stands head and shoulders above the rest, there are races where things have gone wrong and he has adapted and won, or at least finished well enough to keep title changes alive, and those are attributes of a great.

So not sure really in terms of a one single person. If you stuck any of them in a different era there are no guarantees that any would have even made it onto the grid let alone succeeded. I can't see a person of mixed race from a working class background making it on to the grid in an early 1900's Great Britain.

Sure he is quick by himself but his actual racing skills are questionable.

Now while I question Vettel‘s bid to be the greatest driver of all time, you’ve just seen him come from the back (ish) to 4th place twice, the second time going through the field rather better than Hamilton (possibly because Hamilton didn’t need to of course).

No he doesn’t overtake often. Not many of them do.

For me it's Schumacher, simply because I was a kid watching him race and dragging Ferrari back to the top. In fact when he retired I pretty much lost interest in F1, haven't watched a race in years.

Also -
Senna, obviously.
Lauda, did a similar job to Schumacher with Ferrari - getting back in a car after his accident is incredible
Villeneuve, incredibly talented, sublime car control, hooligan.
Nouvolari, hard to compare with more modern drivers but some of his achievements are insane.

Now while I question Vettel‘s bid to be the greatest driver of all time, you’ve just seen him come from the back (ish) to 4th place twice, the second time going through the field rather better than Hamilton (possibly because Hamilton didn’t need to of course).

I think the difference yesterday was that Hamilton was way behind as it took him so long to get back to the pits with the flat tyre. From memory he was around 30 seconds behind Sainz when he came back out of the pits. The strategy after that for Hamilton was to use the softs and hope to not pit again, in the hope that would be enough to get him back up to 5th. Vettel needed at least 2nd so used ultra and super softs.
Also, they alluded in commentary that as mercedes know they have the best power unit so the chassis is designed for leading races and suffers in dirty air with cooling and stability. We've seen in the past how good Hamilton is at overtaking. So I wouldn't use yesterday as a gauge of his ability.

Agreed. But the point being made was that Vettel can’t race. He could yesterday. On softs then ultras according to 5Live when I was listening.
Hamilton used softs then supers. He started about ten seconds behind Vettel as I recall.
That said as set up by Hamilton that Merc doesn’t race well in dirty air, I agree.

Hamilton's diffuser was also shagged from the contact at the start. The whole right corner was missing. Makes a big difference to handling and downforce.

As great a driver and voice for sanity and change in F1 as he was I simply can't take JS seriously when he wears the clown outfit all the time.

[img] [/img]

Shui for me for all the reasons mentioned above and he's my era I guess but could easily include numerous obvious others in the list as equally deserving if you consider different criteria.

Reminds me I must read that Mansell book I've got somewhere.

Some interesting statistics here.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records ]F1 records[/url]
Particularly the percentage race wins which seems to me the only way to allow for different eras and different numbers of races in a season.

Now my hero as a youngster was Jim Clark and I was always impressed by how well his percentage win record stood up against more recent drivers. Note though that Fangio was streets ahead with Ascari second.

I still cling to my belief that Clark was the best ever though.

Unless we see Hamilton in a car that isn't the best by a long way then we simply do not know if he is one of the greats. Anyone of a dozen drivers would have won the WC in his car

I think it depends a little on how old you are. For me, as per my first post, it's Senna all the way. I grew up watching Senna, Prost, Mansell in their prime. Being a bit French I also liked Prost, but Senna was who I wanted to be when I was a kid. My father would have answered equally unequivocally that Clark was the greatest ever, for the same reasons as have been posted here.

The OP says greatest F1 driver which is slightly amibiguous but anyway ...

When I was a kid I read a book about Jim Clark ("Jim Clark at the wheel") and there were bits about how he went from driving a tractor on the family farm to driving for the Border Reivers up to driving for Colin Chapman at Lotus. Then there was Indianapolis (the first to break the Offy-powered US hegemony and open up the race to European style cars and drivers). He tested the Lotus Cortina and at one point I think drove a Ford Galaxy.

Here's a quick summary from Wikipedia:

"In 1963 and 1965, Jim Clark equaled Alberto Ascari's record for Highest percentage of possible championship points in a season (100%). Leading 71.47% of the laps in 1963, Jim Clark holds the record for highest percentage of laps in the lead in a season. He also holds the record for most Grand Slams, taking pole, fastest lap, race win and leading every lap of the race in 8 races (1962 British Grand Prix, 1963 Dutch Grand Prix, 1963 French Grand Prix, 1963 Mexican Grand Prix, 1964 British Grand Prix, 1965 South African Grand Prix, 1965 French Grand Prix, 1965 German Grand Prix)."

Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

tjagain - Member
Unless we see Hamilton in a car that isn't the best by a long way then we simply do not know if he is one of the greats. Anyone of a dozen drivers would have won the WC in his car

Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.

Also being in the right team is part of the skill of being a driver, and one (the only?) area Alonso falls down in.

Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.

Just doesn't compare to Schumacher in a Jordon, a Benneton or a dog-like Ferrari. Senna in a Lotus or Peugeot powered McLaren. imo of course.

Schumacher is still the only driver to have won on a 4-stop strategy too of course. iirc thats the one that blew Ross Brawn's mind

dragon - Member
Slight aside while looking at those stats, but isn't it funny how the era of Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell is considered a classic era, but Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Button and Räikkönen isn't?

It's all about perspective.

legend - Member
Like for example the mp4/24 he won two races in.
Just doesn't compare to Schumacher in a Jordon, a Benneton or a dog-like Ferrari. Senna in a Lotus or Peugeot powered McLaren. imo of course.

Schumacher is still the only driver to have won on a 4-stop strategy too of course. iirc thats the one that blew Ross Brawn's mind

So what's he supposed to do, leave McLaren or Mercedes and go and do a season in a Sauber then? 😆

He won the champs in F3, then won the champs in GP2 then matched Alonso in his debut season in F1 FFS and we're apparently quibbling over whether the 24 was crap enough. Have a look at what Jordan said about it.

Hamilton is top class no doubt about it.

He matched Alonso in his debut season FFS

Quite!

I wouldn't expect him to do so no. However he has almost always been in a car that is far better than anything else which makes it very hard to judge how good he is.

Hunt, definitely the greatest ever. He Knew how to make the most of being an F1 driver. 😉