Going to kick off in Memphis tonight.

Hope not. No one wins then.

Caher
Full Member
Hope not. No one wins then.

Yeah, I agree. Shop owners already boarding up premises but hopefully calm prevails.

I've watched them. Not out of morbid curiosity, but to get an idea of what's going on in America. I work with Americans who are your typical white republican "if you comply then you're safe" bootlickers, and I imagine I'll hear words to that effect the next time I go back.

It's truly, heartbreakingly bad. And yet there's a cop in one of the news studios saying he thinks the issue is the sergeant not taking charge and allowing the officers to act as they please, and that's everything wrong with America's police crystallised down into one person. Personally I'd prefer a police force where where we didn't have to rely on instruction from a higher rank to keep murderous acts in check.

No sign of anything going off in Memphis or elsewhere - yet.
Let's hope that's how it stays.

One thing that struck me from the bodycam footage was the conversation between the officers after the beating. As if they were justified in their actions explaining what had happened from a their extremely biased false account of events. I couldn't work out if that is how they actually saw the events unfold, or if that conversation was for the benefit of the camera in the hope it would sway any future reviewer of the footage. Kind of an extension of the US police shouting "stop resisting" to a victim they are beating.

Makes you wonder who the 'Gang of thugs'really are'.That is truly sickening and heartbreaking that by what looks and sounds like a very frightened man knows what is about too happen,I for one do not hope it stays quiet in Memphis.
Disturbing.

I for one do not hope it stays quiet in Memphis.

Is that bad phrasing or are you saying you hope it kicks off? Why? While I'd say there is 'justification' then who's that going to serve in the end - more victims injured or worse, in an armed society. Damage to property and premises. There's other ways to condemn these actions without resorting to the same level as the scum that did this.

Who of course they know who they are, have been arrested and will face the consequences (I hope)

While I'm always keen to (snowflake) that the actions of an individual or individuals don't define the actions of a community, ethnicity, religion, etc...... that cuts both ways so I'm surprised / not surprised that this was the action of five black officers. I'm interested by the commentary that if the victim had been white this wouldn't have happened. If that's true america's even more messed up than I thought.

I’ve not watched the vids but the first thing Mrs FD said was it will be interesting to see if it does kick off as the officers were black as well.

That poses more questions in itself about the state of America

I think it poses questions about the institutional culture of US law enforcement and how it is now part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.

They appear to be emboldened to act in any way they choose and innocent people are just steamrolled by the process and weight of the establishment.

It also shows that brutality and a gang mentality is embedded throughout the police, regardless of the “officers” race. Let’s be honest, we all assumed it was white cops beating a black man on first hearing, the language used during it reflects their power trip as well.

Exactly, these incidents are not the first time these officers have acted in such a way, this is the culture and they are experienced in the abuse of power so much that they did that without even thinking they could be caught or of course about the abuse they were inflicting.

The whole US justice system is corrupt, from civil forfeiture, through poor people being imprisoned because they couldn't pay local fines, to acts of violence like this. I don't think it is possible to design a system with so much contempt for humanity.

But is American society condoning the actions if they don’t go out and protest? Same with guns, it’s almost acceptable to do a mass shooting

its a sad world if their is no respect for fellow people unless it’s along the lines of racial discrimination, which at that point you have to wonder if race is the way of creating division on both sides, not bringing closer together

I watched probably hundreds of dash cam or body cam rcordings of police interaction in the USA.
They are mostly a circle jerk of raising the level of antagonism with every sentence
Plus alot of American police are retarded. Make up laws on the spot, lie blatently despite videos proving innocence. Pull their guns without any reason, shine a torch in your eyes, refuse to give their name when asked.

But the motorists dont help themselves.
Refuse to give name, answer any questions, get sarcastic straight away.

Concealed carry, plus the sheer amount of firearms clearly doesn't help, then add in the standard of driving or riding and all the 1st amendment ' I know more about law than you' yes, you might but they have a badge and a gun pointed at you so try being nice.

The "lack of" a racial aspect to this attack certainly changes the dynamics of any protests, and I'm not sure there will be violence this time as a result. As others have said, we all expected this to be white officers, which speaks to our own biases I guess. I wonder how common it is for black officers to abuse their power against white and black victims? Or how well known among the black community - not a subject that reaches us over here in reports.

The whole American system is so messed up, no idea how you fix it.

When the justice system as a whole targets the black community differently, then just because a black officer(s) is empowered to enforce that system, I don't think it eliminates the racial bias of the crime.

I think it poses questions about the institutional culture of US law enforcement and how it is now part of the problem rather than being part of the solution.

If you haven’t already checkout the recent “Fight the Power” hip hop documentary and the corresponding thread on here. It explains how the US police force was trained and authorised in lethal force and brutality in the 80’s and 90’s with every piece of ignorant information that could be thrown at them by a white racist leadership. Clearly it’s still taught and very much institutionalised.

I watched the video this morning and an absolutely disgusted at the whole event. I hope the protests are long and successful yet not violent or destructive.

Unfortunately, racism is endemic in America and has experience a recent rise in the citing of the first amendment by another recent white racist intolerant leadership.

It's an utterly horrific crime. A couple of points:

1. Thanks to bodycam footage, the cops were quickly arrested and charged with murder. Without bodycams, they would have gotten off with saying that he attacked a police officer and tried to steal a gun.

2. The cops were all black, so it wasn't a case of racist white cops targeting a black man. It's a case of a broken system where it's not possible to do a decent job of policing. The "bad apples" analogies forget that the expression is, "one bad apple spoils the barrel." Nobody could do a decent job of being a cop in that system, anyone with any sense will quit so only the bad apples are left.

A couple of TV shows that aren't just the standard cop propaganda are We Own This City (dramatization of real events) and Southland, which is the nearest thing I've seen to a modern remake of Hill Street Blues. Problem is that even cops who try to be decent are in a system that rewards the opposite.

I do think race plays a part though. Black men in America know, from previous media reports and through their own experience, that they are at risk during and after arrest and are therefore more likely to resist and/or run. That immediately raises the level of antagonism, the red mist descends and we see what the result can be. And then the whole circle starts again.

Having seen more than one such video, I'm also questioning whether the police involved are hyped up on drugs of some sort.

I do think race plays a part though.

Yes, the point is that the racism is embedded in the system, it's not just a case of a few racist cops.

I’m also questioning whether the police involved are hyped up on drugs of some sort.

You really should watch We Own This City, or at least read about the real-life events that it's based on.

http://data.baltimoresun.com/news/gun-trace-overview/

I used to listen to a podcast by 2 very rude black American ladies.
One of them had just been diagnosed with ptsd.
She had flown to England and met up with some friends of friends (also black). They were driving around when the cops pulled them over.
The driver got out of the car and started arguing with the cops. The girl is pleading with the man to stop and comply. The driver then runs off.
She said on the podcast that this behaviour in the America would have got you shot and she feared for her life.
Sounds a bit “grow a pair” but she obviously sees a cop and sees a killer.

but she obviously sees a cop and sees a killer.

Not an unwise position to take in London after the recent cases and more to come I wouldn't be surprised.

To me is goes hand in hand with the US attitude to guns - putting aggression first.
For all their possible faults, the UK police are primarily taught to first calm and descalate a situation, the US police are seemingly taught to show their aggression and power first.
They're screwed.

They are mostly a circle jerk of raising the level of antagonism with every sentence
Plus alot of American police are retarded. Make up laws on the spot, lie blatently despite videos proving innocence. Pull their guns without any reason, shine a torch in your eyes, refuse to give their name when asked.

But the motorists dont help themselves.
Refuse to give name, answer any questions, get sarcastic straight away.

None of that is specific to the US. It sounds like policing in the UK too (apart from the guns, for the most part). And if they can't deal with sarcasm, they shouldn't join the police. If bus drivers or nurses shot everyone that was sarcastic or rude to them, the population of the UK would be about 6,000.

If bus drivers or nurses shot everyone that was sarcastic or rude to them, the population of the UK would be about 6,000.

It's a bit of a small population, but I'd like to live in a society where no-one is rude to nurses or bus drivers.

But why should these people (oover here) have to put up with sarcasm?(if thats your form of response to someone trying to help society then you don't deserve any respect) Anything other than perfect politeness puts you in the wrong and then things go wrong if you push. If plod says "stop" you do it, instantly.
Over there they have an excellent opportunity for the police to do things properly. If , big if, protestors as peaceful, do no damage and cause no hassle to anyone then there will be no excuse for any officer to get aggressive. Jobs good for all. If some nasty sod breaks a rule then the law has to respod and the other thugs will join in and we have a riot.
Both groups have the perfect opportunity to show themselves at their best.

None of that is specific to the US. It sounds like policing in the UK too

I’ve worked alongside frontline UK police officers for over twenty years. Whilst the UK police undoubtedly has its issues (especially in the MET which seems to have significantly lower recruitment standards than the rest of the uk) they are still completely different in their approach to US police. Policing by consent of the population is actually a thing in the UK. De-escalation techniques are actively practiced. Ive been present when force has been used to subdue and control individuals on many occasions, and I’ve never seen unjustified force used, ever. I appreciate that anecdotes are not evidence and that I haven’t got a similar level of experience with US police, but there is very obviously a very different style of policing involved.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been pulled over by a state trooper for speeding in Florida, and whilst it went fine, it wears a much more aggressive and unpleasant experience than it would have been in the UK. UK police rarely INITIATE an interaction by shouting at the member of public. Bizarre that that is seen as acceptable in the US.

This latest Memphis tragedy will hopefully go some way to moving the debate from simply one of individual racist officers to one of racist institutions and systematic ábside of power by the many ‘badged’ organisations with power to arrest and use lethal force in the US. The US public, who fund these organisations after all, should not put up with being treated like shit by them.

This reminds me of an article I saw a few years ago by an ex-military guy who got a job as a cop. His point was that the police have a military culture that is not appropriate to their job, and also that soldiers are much more constrained in how they are allowed to treat civilians than police. The problem with American cops is that they see themselves as constantly under threat and behave as an occupying force in hostile territory. That becomes a self-fulling prophesy so police overreactions lead to hostility from the citizenry, which makes the police distrust everyone leading to more overreactions, and so on.
https://twitter.com/SteveSchmidtSES/status/1619320654507163649

Brian Klaas has written about the kind of people US police forces actively recruit being a big part of the problem

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/11/how-new-zealand-used-humor-reform-police/620598/

I don't think it's just people of colour who get the raw end of American law enforcement, If you're white and poor (the USA has lots of people in this demographic) you are still at risk of a good beating or worse, just a lot less likely to make the international press.

It's difficult, some parts of society are aggressive first and foremost with anyone, not just law enforcement. They are more likely to interact with police. Is the police response a reaction to the behaviour ofvghese people or does police response create the issues. In the UK I think it's more weighted towards public attitude causing the issues although the police as a whole are clearly not without blame. In the states it's become a war with both sides equally culpable and dehumanizing the other to justify behaviour.

IIRC american cops are organised very differently with different roles Ie State troopers, sheriffs and deputies etc, city police and in many of those roles training is very minimal whereas most European cops have much greater training.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops.  I really wasn't expecting that.

UK police rarely INITIATE an interaction by shouting at the member of public. Bizarre that that is seen as acceptable in the US.

As I understand it, many U.S. police jurisdictions train their cops to dominate the situation. They shout orders and react aggressively to any disobedience because they are trained to see consider any challenge as a potential threat.
I haven't seen the latest video, not planning on watching it, but I read a summary of it. There were multiple cops shouting contradictory orders. I suspect this is often done to disorient and intimidate people, or maybe just for amusement. Shouting isn't just seen as acceptable, it's a fundamental part of many cops' training.

To be fair, different states and cities in the U.S. will have different policies and training. Maybe some of them aren't so abusive but it's clear that many of them are horrendous.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

This is not actually new. I saw some research years ago that found that black cops were just as racist as white cops. It's the system, not the individuals that is the primary cause of this.

I don’t think it’s just people of colour who get the raw end of American law enforcement, If you’re white and poor (the USA has lots of people in this demographic) you are still at risk of a good beating or worse, just a lot less likely to make the international press.

I suspect there is some truth to this, but I think cops will automatically treat black people as more threatening. Educated people know how to talk to cops and cops know better than to mistreat them. Poor white people who get aggressive in their behaviour will probably get a beating too but cops will approach black people with an assumption that they are offending whereas they are much less likely to do that with white people.

It's been a thing in various hip hop song lyrics over the years right back to the 80s with black officers being worse in some cases than their white colleagues when it comes to assuming a black person is up to no good and therefore being much more aggressive to the people they have stopped.

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

It's the colour of the person on the floor that really matters.

Cops is cops no matter what else. The George Floyd incident had Asian and Latino cops present. Didn't much affect the outcome

I still find this weird tho with it being black cops. I really wasn’t expecting that.

or maybe that explains why the force hasn't closed ranks, obstructed the investigation, lost the bodycam footage and tried to protect it's own for a change.

or maybe that explains why the force hasn’t closed ranks, obstructed the investigation, lost the bodycam footage and tried to protect it’s own for a change.

The arrested officers were part of an "elite" unit. It's just as likely that the regular officers knew these guys were a problem and were happy to throw them under the bus, regardless of race. We'll learn more once their trial starts, a lot of the details will be held back until then.

I watched it last night and what struck me (apart from the lynching by the police officers, that's merely bred into them through insufficiant training and piss poor management) was the fact that the ambulance/paramedics and the fire service stood around and did not offer help to the victim for 30 mins, I hope they are prosecuted and kicked out as well.

I hope this group get 20 years apiece, they really deserve it.

Utterly horrific.

I could not bring myself to watch, but I watched the interview with his mother which was heartbreaking.

I'm no expert on US policing but it seems like something is very wrong when this kind of thing is not even that uncommon.

I ended up watching the footage on the news yesterday, I am often thick skinned when it comes to most things as I know humanity can be very low and very cruel, but watching that really got to me, absolutely chuffin horrible!

@somafunk Medics and other official by-standers are on the docket too. Maybe justice will be done though I was watching part 2 of the Hip-Hop documentary last night and Rodney King was on so I won't hold my breath.

I have personal experience of American cops and it was mildly terrifying. I was staying in a hostel/hotel a few years ago and was woken up at 3am by incredibly aggressive hammering on the door. I of course ignored it because who opens the door to that. Somewhat belatedly they announced they were police, we opened the door to an immediate onslaught of shouted questioning asking whether there was a girl in our room - we mentioned our friend a few doors down and they go charging of to give the same treatment to her before finally screaming comes from the floor below and they realise they got the wrong room number for the report of a drug OD. The aggression they showed was insane, and knowing they carried guns was genuinely scary with someone acting that way, and all this was on a call that should have been to help someone. We were clearly confused foreign tourists and that did nothing to change their attitude; it really doesn't take much imagination to understand how much worse it must be for the groups of society against which they have pre-existing prejudice, even without seeing the videos to prove it

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

I don't think policing in the UK is the same as in the US (and I've lived in both). I think there is always a level of smugness among UK posters after each new cop murder in the US, but there is plenty to be ashamed of in the UK.

Case in point: Scottish cops asphyxiated a black man in 2015, and the public inquiry still isn't close to concluding. "When Mr Bayoh was arrested by officers at Hayfield road in Kirkcaldy on May 3 2015, he was handcuffed, put in leg and ankle restraints, battoned to the head at least twice, and sprayed with CS gas and PAVA spray."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/edinburgh-police-scotland-kirkcaldy-b1041837.html

Anything other than perfect politeness puts you in the wrong and then things go wrong if you push. If plod says “stop” you do it, instantly.

This would be a really great idea if all police officers were fair, honest and calm individuals. But they're not. The idea that citizens should so exactly what cops tell them to just because or expect a beating is a recipe for a police state.

And if your feelings are so delicate that your response to sarcasm is an instinct to violence - don't join the police.

was the fact that the ambulance/paramedics and the fire service stood around and did not offer help to the victim for 30 mins

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

The level of inequality in a society corresponds directly to the level of repression required to maintain it.

Sounds a plausible proposition but then I think to the eastern block countries that had less apparent inequality - and yet required massive organs of state oppression to keep their populations in line.

Of course they had the obvious divides between non party members, party members and the ruling elites, but gave the impression of more equality than the west. Maybe that was just a superficial view and there was far more inequality than advertised. Or maybe that proposition is wrong.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil's advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go "woah, wait, hang on a minute lads..." That wasn't a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

nothing different here. There was that guy with a council tax arrears the police decided to cripple as punishment and after deliberately smashing his leg in several places then using the broken leg and knee to torture him the ambulance refused to take him unless he gave his name

Got a link for that story, please?

Got a link for that story, please?

I posted a link ages ago... I'll see if I can find it again.

The thing that hit me with this incident is that it seemed normalised. Like, playing devil’s advocate for a second I can understand how someone might get carried away in the heat of the moment and regret it afterwards. But at no point did anyone in that group go “woah, wait, hang on a minute lads…” That wasn’t a one-off incident / accident, it was their standard operating procedure.

Because
a) They didn't expect him to actually die
b) there were non police controlled cameras

Surely you remember Peter Tomlinson and Jean Charles de Menezes only really exposed through phone footage and 3rd party CCTV the police couldn't delete before it went viral

Obviously a) doesn't apply to Jean Charles de Menezes as they discharged multiple rounds into his head at point blank range... but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference. However strange how Canary Wharf cameras were accidentally turned off and it was only the banker who sent the phone footage to the papers got the murderer caught...

@Cougar

https://dwfgroup.com/en/news-and-insights/insights/2019/6/kenyon-v-the-chief-constable-of-hertfordshire

but Tomlinson obviously was just meant to be roughed up for not showing deference.

I thought Ian Tomlinson's death was caused by a rogue thug copper?

And on the other hand Jean Charles de Menezes's death was the result of an officially sanctioned operation?